Help fmjbt diameter all over the place.

[Metal god]

For all the time and money it takes to reload rifle, and including the limited time to spend at range, am willing to buy good bullets. Am sure those company's are saving their best effort to sell at surplus? Bought them once, not again. Even for open sighted "battle" rifles.

I almost feel the same way . I bought 2k 147gr FMJ's for my new PA-10 rifle build . I'm going to test the 147gr's with W748 on Monday . We'll see how I feel about them on Tuesday lol . I hope standard CCI LR primers will work OK cause I don't have any magnum primers , no wait I think Winchester LR primers are multi use standard and magnum but I already primed the cases with CCI's ?? I guess I'll be testing both

[HiBC]

To beat the dead horse, FMJ military ball ammo is made with a copper jacket cup that has an open base. The lead is inserted and the jacket is swaged.

Variation in jackets,cores,and manufacturing show up in the bullet base.

As Unclenick's photos show,the variation in bullet bases is considerable.

The base of the bullet plays a major role in bullet accuracy.

Match grade and hunting bullets have the jackets formed with a closed base. Te lead is inserted from the front,then the bullet is swaged.The bullet bases can be far more consistent this way.

It seems you bought a rifle in the interest of accuracy.. I don't know exactly how many rounds of peak accuracy your barrel will deliver,but a ball park guess of 5000 rounds might not be far off.

You bought 500 rock blasting dust puffing go bang bullets.

Do you want to use up 10 % of your barrel life shooting them?

If you want accuracy for the sake of accuracy,start with a good match grade bulet. You get to have fun picking one.

One of the reasons ball powder is used for military powder is the machinery loading the amo can be run at a higher speed as the powder flows like water.

The shape of a powder granule is part of what controls burn speed. The little balls would burn as fast as pistol powder if they were not heavily coated with inert retardants. Those tend to leave fouling which can compromise accuracy.

I'm not a match shooter. You have some on this thread helping you. I can say after informally testing several powders for 308 accuracy,Varget was our choice. Others have had great success with 4895,4064,etc.

I don't know today's recipie,but for a time the Army loaded RE-15 behind a 175 gr match bullet for sniper ammo. I suggest RE-15 might be worthy of a try. Some say it might be Norma N-140 but I don't know that.

If what you are pursuing is tight little groups.....no put down here,but you might make some progress with your bag setup.

Stacking front bags on your rifle case and not having a rear bag at all seems like an opportunity for improvement. so long as you are evaluating the rifle and the load.

[Reloadron]

This is my first .30 caliber. But have been reloading for 35 years. Never ran into bullets this out of spec.

They are not out of specification. Bullets just like the barrels they pass through have allowable tolerances. A .308 bullet has an allowable tolerance of 0.3090" -0.0030" so a .308 bullet having a diameter of 0.306" through 0.309" is within specifications. Then as mentioned that bullet is going to pass rather quickly through a barrel with a 0.300" bore diameter and a 0.308 groove diameter. Those barrel dimensions will also have allowable tolerances.

If you want bullets which have nice uniformity and dimensions close to or at nominal then buy better bullets which come with a higher price tag attached.

Ron

[Metal god]

I just started loading my 30cal 147gr FMJ-BT bullets for the first time for my AR-10 platform rifle . After reading this thread I checked the diameter of 30 of the lot of 1k . My diameters were pretty good for cheep bullets . Most were just under .308 . Based on where my dial calipers were reading each bullet , I'd say most were .3078 . None went below .3075 or over .308 .

Not match quality but ok I guess so I started loading them up and quickly ran into another issue . The crimp groove is the most inconsistently place canelure I've ever cam across . I want to crimp these do to the rifle I'm loading for . Yes I trimmed every case after sizing and I'm using a Redding competition seating die . My head to datum measurement is pretty good at just a few thousandths variance but sometimes the crimp groove is seated below the case mouth while other times it's almost fully visible . I mean so bad it's almost comical . I only got about 20 loaded and was just to frustrated to continue . I even switched the seating die insert from standard to VLD to see if that would help , NOPE !

These were seated one after the other . Note the difference in where the crimp groove is after seating .


Case on left COAL 2.781- BTO 2.055

Case on right COAL 2.753 - BTO 2.053

My guess is they base the canelure placement off the tip of the bullet ??

I've already sent a email to Everglades asking for exchange or refund .
https://www.evergladesammo.com/bulle...j-bullets.html

[AgedWarrior]

I acquired a rather large supply of 147 grain bullets several years ago, and gave them a try in my M1A Socom 16. I was looking for some ammo that I could shoot economically and basically do some tactics training with the rifle. Since then I also use them in my AR10 also in the same manner. They are great for this! When I say tactics training I am referring to shooting from various positions, some from behind barriers, etc and moving from one position to another. I like the practice of shooting from varied positions; it improves my overall rifle handling skills. I wish there was a range near enough that was set up for this, but I do the best I can where I am.

The 147’s are definitely not the most accurate bullet you can shoot out of a .30 cal rifle, but typically they are quite cheap. Loading them can be a little frustrating at first if you are used to loading for precision, which I think most reloaders are shooting for. The tolerances on these bullets are much looser than quality commercial bullets, with variances in the ogive and diameter and a wee bit in length at times, but all are within SAAMI specs. You will find, as Metal god pointed out, that it is difficult to get a consistent alignment in the cannelure for crimping. I basically shoot for a middle of the road length that allows for give and take, but aligns the mouth over the cannelure even though some are higher or lower than others. Doing this goes against the grain for my usual loading criteria, but it works just fine with these bullets as long as your COL is within SAAMI specs.

Accuracy is typically around 2” to 3” at 100. Not very good, but still useful for range fodder. I was out with a friend a few months ago and I was goofing around shooting bench rest with these bullets just to see how good they would do that day; I shot four so close in the bull that they looked like a four leaf clover, and the fifth was 1 3/4” high and right. All five were consistent shots on my part. We laughed at the four leaf clover, cause we knew that was pretty miraculous with that ammo.

[Bart B.]

Originally Posted by Metal god

My guess is they base the canelure placement off the tip of the bullet ??

The two arsenal 30 caliber canneluring machines I've seen both pushed the bullet base against a stop while the round gear teeth thing spun the bullet making all those tiny dents in its jacket.

While a uniform distance from the bullet base, normal tolerances in ogive shape made all bullet's cannelures different distance from the bullet seating stem touch point to cannelure.

Will look for a picture of one.

[mikld]

As mentioned above, there are much better measuring tools than calipers for small diameter solids. Micrometers are solid, won't spring and easy to use. Calipers sold for reloading have long, thin jaws that can easily "spring" and the skinny jaws can be difficult to consistently place on the object being measured. Yes, good accurate measurements can be obtained with dial or digital calipers but it takes more experience and "feel" than most new or "casual" users have.

One of my first "real" jobs was as a machine operator in '66. I had a Craftsman dial caliper I took to work and I thought I was good enough to use it on machined parts. The "lineman" took them from me and gave me a 1" Starrett micrometer. He wouldn't let me check any parts with a caliper.

[Metal god]

The two arsenal 30 caliber canneluring machines I've seen both pushed the bullet base against a stop while the round gear teeth thing spun the bullet making all those tiny dents in its jacket.

While a uniform distance from the bullet base, normal tolerances in ogive shape made all bullet's cannelures different distance from the bullet seating stem touch point to cannelure.

Will look for a picture of one.

You're likely right , I've only bought two lots of cheep FMJ rifle bullets . These 147gr bullets and some .224 55gr bullets . The 147's are from Everglades and the 55's were bought at a gunshow . Both lots have poor cannelure placement . All my Hornady , Winchester and Wolf FMJ bullets have had there cannelure's spot on as far as where they seat to in relation to the case mouths .

FWIW Everglades has already contacted me and said I can return them . They will refund my money minus the bullets used . Since I only loaded 14 my guess is I'll get a full refund . That said I'm considering keeping them for SHTF type of thing . I have some other crappy bullets put away so these may join them .

I did just order 600 Hornady 150gr FMJ-BT bullets at just under $.18 each , the Everglades were about $.15 each . My bet is the Hornady bullets will be much more consistent .

[zeke]

Never had much luck accuracy wise in the short semi's owned combining 1::10 twists with 147 fmj bullets accuracy wise. Not even with "quality" bullets. The M1A's and FAL's do better with them, even open sighted.

[Bart B.]

Originally Posted by zeke

Never had much luck accuracy wise in the short semi's owned combining 1::10 twists with 147 fmj bullets accuracy wise. Not even with "quality" bullets. The M1A's and FAL's do better with them, even open sighted.

If you're referring to short barrels not shooting 30 caliber 147 gr FMJ bullets accurate, I don't think neither a 1:10 twist nor length is the cause.

What were their measured bore and groove diameters?

[zeke]

Never actually measured their bore/grooves. Switched to heavier bullets and got excellent accuracy. They're both Rock River's.

[Unclenick]

Trigger45,

The photos have too many pixels. This makes the viewer zoom out until he can no longer read the text. Please limit the longest dimension of a photo to 1024 pixels for posting. I have corrected and reposted it for you here, but please use one of the numerous free online image resizing apps in the future.

I see a measurement range of .3084" to .3088". The measuring technique can be improved by pinching the jaws closed over the bullet with your thumb and index finger rather than using the thumbwheel. As already suggested, it can be improved. One improvement is measuring behind the cannelure rather than over it. The cannelure tends to include small raised surfaces upset that can alter your results. Impressing a cannelure into a bullet without creating some surface corruption is almost impossible.

All that said, the measured range is perfectly acceptable. The military and SAAMI spec is 0.3090"-0.003" or 0.306-0.309" Yours are way tighter than that.

[Metal god]

The photos have too many pixels. This makes the viewer zoom out until he can no longer read the text.

Yeah , I had to run to the other side of the house to see the rest of the photo

[Bart B.]

The British Commonwealth country's fullbore rifle competitors used 7.62 NATO 30" barrels with .3065" groove diameters so arsenal M80 ball ammo with .3070" bullet diameters would shoot accurate through 1000 yards. Their 147 grain weights shot very accurate with 1:14" twists going out about 3000 fps.

Handloaded or commercial ammo was not allowed, So, everyone shot the same lot of 7.62 M80 issued at the range. This is how their NRA "leveled the playing field."

[trigger45]

Sorry about pic size. Widners is making it right. Lots of info. I will hit small pictures next time.


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[trigger45]

Originally Posted by Metal god

Yeah , I had to run to the other side of the house to see the rest of the photo

Guys I’m really sorry about the pictures.


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[Reloadron]

It's OK and lessons learned.

Ron

[trigger45]

Originally Posted by HiBC

To beat the dead horse, FMJ military ball ammo is made with a copper jacket cup that has an open base. The lead is inserted and the jacket is swaged.

Variation in jackets,cores,and manufacturing show up in the bullet base.

As Unclenick's photos show,the variation in bullet bases is considerable.

The base of the bullet plays a major role in bullet accuracy.

Match grade and hunting bullets have the jackets formed with a closed base. Te lead is inserted from the front,then the bullet is swaged.The bullet bases can be far more consistent this way.

It seems you bought a rifle in the interest of accuracy.. I don't know exactly how many rounds of peak accuracy your barrel will deliver, but a ballpark guess of 5000 rounds might not be far off.

You bought 500 rock blasting dust puffing go bang bullets.

Do you want to use up 10 % of your barrel life shooting them?

If you want accuracy for the sake of accuracy, start with a good match grade bullet. You get to have fun picking one.

One of the reasons ball powder is used for military powder is the machinery loading the ammo can be run at a higher speed as the powder flows like water.

The shape of a powder granule is part of what controls burn speed. The little balls would burn as fast as pistol powder if they were not heavily coated with inert retardants. Those tend to leave fouling which can compromise accuracy.

I'm not a match shooter. You have some on this thread helping you. I can say after informally testing several powders for 308 accuracy, Varget was our choice. Others have had great success with 4895, 4064, etc.

I don't know today's recipe, but for a time the Army loaded RE-15 behind a 175 gr match bullet for sniper ammo. I suggest RE-15 might be worthy of a try. Some say it might be Norma N-140 but I don't know that.

If what you are pursuing is tight little groups.....no put down here, but you might make some progress with your bag setup.

Stacking front bags on your rifle case and not having a rear bag at all seems like an opportunity for improvement. so long as you are evaluating the rifle and the load.

I’m saving up for a scope next then bags. I probably got ahead of my self. That is actually my range bag empty and my rifle case is closed cell foam. Had it for a while. This set up has worked for a long time. The table is high. I don’t need it (the bag) too high. Never reloaded for .30 caliber before. Like I’ve said before on other forums it’s the rifle I should have bought 30 years ago. But I got a .270win.

I went back and measured the bullets. They were still larger than they needed to be. In the future I’ll buy a sizer to see if I can use them. They leave too much copper in my barrel to be any good for it. Getting another bullet type from Hornady 168-gr bthp. If it’s like the 87 gr bthp in .243win I’ve used before it’ll be great.

Thanks for your time.


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[Metal god]

I use the Hornady 168gr BTHP as my plinking match loads . Bulk price is good and they shoot pretty well in all my 308’s . If I want to get accuracy and distance i go up in weight to at least 175/8 all the way to 200gr

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by trigger45

Some are range between.308 and .309.

Originally Posted by trigger45

This is my first .30 caliber. But have been reloading for 35 years. Never ran into bullets this out of spec.

Originally Posted by UncleNick

The military and SAAMI spec is 0.3090"-0.003" or 0.306-0.309" Yours are way tighter than that.

In other words, your bullets are not out of spec. They are all within spec, and the diameter range of your bullets (.001") is one-third the allowable range per SAAMI specification. It would appear that (a) your expectations for surplus bullets is unrealistic, and (b) you don't know what "in spec" is for the round you are loading.

[Aguila Blanca]

Duplicate threads merged.

[HiBC]

This isn't science proved by testing. Its seat of the pants opinion.
There are those here who know better than I do.

Eyeballing the proportions of your bullet,the cylindrical body that actually contacts groove dia of your bore looks to be about .375 to .400. + or -.

So something like 125% to 133% of diameter.
I'm not making any hard and fast rule here. Short bullets can shoot good.
I suggest it might take more attention to detail to get them to transition from case neck to throat to leade and on down the bore with the bullet co-axial to the bore.
My theory is ,all other factors being equal,it may be easir to get a longer body bullet headed straight into the bore.
I know,folks DO get lighter,shorter bullets to shoot.I don't know diddly about Palma,but they shoot 155 gr 30 cal boat tails ,a relatively short body bullet, with excellent accuracy.

But I'm guessing the necks are uniform,the ammo is straight and concentric,,and the chambering reamer is optimized to start that bullet straight and square into the rifling.

I would assume its usually easier to get something like a 175 gr MK to shoot.

[Unclenick]

I should mention that many bullets also have a tiny diameter increase where a boattail meets the cylindrical bearing surface. This is why measuring across the diameter gives you a better idea of what most of the barrel feels.

As Bart mentioned, bullets that are slightly tight shoot better than those that are slightly loose, especially as throat wear increases over time. Indeed, having a Palma barrel for 308 Win made with a groove diameter of. 3065" is not uncommon.

Your concern about increased metal fouling resulting from tight bullets is misplaced. If it caused a problem, you would expect the buildup to be apparent around edge the throat, but it actually builds up an inch or two down the bore which is where the bullet bearing surface is located when the pressure peak is reached. That high level of accelerating force (typically around 150000-200000 g's in 308 W) actually tries to squash the bullet shorter and fatter which pushes it out hard against the sides of bore. That's what raises the friction to rub copper off in the bore. It is also why undersized bullets will shoot without leaking gas, even though accuracy is compromised by the centering error it allows.

If you have a barrel that fouls too rapidly there are three things that can help. One is firelapping the bore to smooth it. Another is using lubricated bullets; moly coating or hex boron nitride. A new one is Tubb Dust, a powder additive David Tubb sells to prevent copper build-up.

[trigger45]

Gonna get a bullet sizer for these remaining bullets. See if that helps. But I remember using these bullets as loaded Ammo causing the same problem. I’ll do 20 to see if they smooth out.

I remember the fouling last time at the range I couldn’t chamber a round. Had to clean the chamber too.


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