Bill to Allow Sale of Surplus 1911 Pistols through CMP

[Tom Servo]

Rep. Mike Rogers of Alabama has proposed it as an amendment to this year's NDAA. The full story is here.

This would generate revenue for the government, and it would save these pistols from being destroyed. This could be a very uncontroversial thing if it's played right.

[rwilson452]

If your looking for a 1911 to shoot, your going to not like the result. The 1911s the military has are flat worn out. If your looking for some sort of 1911 just to collect it,well not a bad idea.

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by Tom Servo

This could be a very uncontroversial thing if it's played right.

Agreed. IMHO the key is that, according to the linked story, there are only 100,000 of these pistols in storage. This may sound like a lot to some folks, but it's less than 5% of the 2,190,297 pistols manufactured in 2013 by Ruger, S&W, and Glock only (stats here).

I predict that they will be gone in a heartbeat, mostly into collectors' safes. The number realistically likely to wind up "on the street" should be near-zero in the short term.

[FrankenMauser]

Agreed. IMHO the key is that, according to the linked story, there are only 100,000 of these pistols in storage. This may sound like a lot to some folks, but it's less than 5% of the 2,190,297 pistols manufactured in 2013 by Ruger, S&W, and Glock only (stats here).

The article that I read cited 192,000 in storage.

Though it's not a huge improvement, it does nearly double the number cited in the article linked above.


I just went looking through my history to provide a link, but the article is no longer available. I see that all other articles on the subject are quoting the same 100,000 figure. So, perhaps what I read was based on a typo or misinterpretation and the article is being corrected.

[kilimanjaro]

There have been rumors, tales, and scuttlebutt talk of Singer 1911s by the crate load.

Perhaps.

One thing, though, I guarantee not all the pistols are shot out. You'd be surprised how much stuff the Government buys and squirrels away for decades.

[Tom68]

here is HuffPo's story:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/0...n_7265184.html

The topic of this story is the recent amendment to the FY '16 National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) entered by Rep Mike Rogers (R-AL), which would allow the CMP to begin selling surplus M1911A1s to qualified CMP customers.

Other than the expected cringe-worthy claims made in the article, I'm especially curious about the article's claim about "a white paper prepared for Congress by the Army opposing the amendment". The article makes no claim regarding the authorship of the white paper, nor by whom it was endorsed. The only person mentioned by name was one Michael Amato, who is quoted at the end of the article as commenting on the white paper as if he was a spokesman of the US Army.... but a quick google search showed only one individual who could have been the source of this comment, who is listed as the "Minority Communications Director at House Armed Services Committee, U.S. House of Representatives"... Minority meaning, not the majority party in congress. So, the article is quoting a partisan, who is commenting on a authorless paper, on a topic he opposes... what a surprise.

To those who may not know, a white paper in the US Army is not necessarily a sanctioned document. It is written by an individual, or group of individuals, often expressing a desire for changing a policy, or procedure... and is often the beginning of a change movement. I would opine that more white papers are categorically ignored than ever get read by anyone above the O-6 level. That being said, ANYBODY can write a white paper; getting someone in power to actually pay attention to it is a different matter entirely.

So, I did multiple Google searches, using a variety of keywords in various permutaitons and combinations: Army, opposition, NDAA, amendment, CMP, etc...... and the ONLY hit that clearly matched any of my searches was the article referenced above. Having noted this, I will ask of the community: Does anyone have any reference for an official US Army position regarding this amendment?

[rickyrick]

Yay

[Quentin2]

I'd love to get a World War veteran 1911!

[Tom68]

So is anyone aware of any official US Army objection to this amendment to the NDAA? as stated in my earlier post, one writer, one source, and completely non-attributable. I frankly can't see why the Army would even have an opinion on the topic.

not to mention, I think chris above said it best... these things'll get snapped up by collectors. I bet that if they are sold, very few will ever be fired.

[rwilson452]

Heck you might even find one that has been in WWI, WWII, Korea and Vietnam.

[62coltnavy]

Posted on Culver's shooting page:

INFORMATION PAPER 11 May 2015
SUBJECT: Legislative authority to transfer excess M1911A1 pistols to the Civilian MarksmanshipProgram (CMP).
Purpose: To communicate Army concerns about expanding the scope of transfers to the CMP.
During Committee Markup of the FY16 NDAA, the HASC adopted an amendment allowing the U.S. Army to transfer excess .45 caliber M1911A1 pistols to CMP.
Concerns: The Army and DOJ have concerns with this amendment and believe additional study isnecessary. Specifically, the Army is concerned about loss of accountability of weapons after transfer to CMP; expanding the scope of CMP’s mission to include handguns; and the potential negative impacts on public safety from the large amount of semi-automatic and concealable pistols that will be released forpublic purchase. Although CMP’s original charter, and current mission statement, include both rifle practice and firearmsafety, historically the program has only been provided rifles and associated spare parts and ammunition. If Congress intended for CMP’s firearm safety mission to include handguns or believed CMP should have the authority to resale handguns to generate revenue to support other programs, it would have required the Army to transfer the surplus M1911A1 inventory to CMP in 1996 when the program originally moved from the Army to the Corporation. (see 36 U.S.C. section 40728(a)) DOJ has informally conveyed to the Army that it opposes the amendment and, in reviewing a similar previous legislative proposal, has expressed the following three concerns: public safety, traceability, and applicability of the Gun Control Act of 1968.
o Public Safety – Although the provision does communicate that CMP cannot sell the firearmsto prohibited persons, the provision does not include a mechanism to verify and confirm theinformation obtained through private, internet or mail-order sales. There is no statutoryrequirement or record keeping obligation for CMP.
o Traceability – There is a significant risk of approximately 100K semi-automatic handgunsthat are virtually untraceable, being released into commerce. Per DOJ, M1911 pistols are popular crime guns. Over the last 10 years, they traced an average of 1,768 M1911 pistols with a significant percentage (percentage not provided) ultimately identified as surplus U.S.military firearms. DOJ believes it would be a challenge to trace these firearms if used in acrime because there will likely be no record of origin and the seller (CMP) is not a licensee and accordingly is not bound to keep records memorializing the transaction (both of whichare factors they also believe contribute to diminished public safety).
o Applicability of the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA) – CMP (not a licensee) is currentlyauthorized to acquire and sell, without GCA interstate controls, .22 caliber rimfire and .30caliber surplus rifles, air rifles, associated ammunition, repair parts and other accouterments.The proposed legislation would allow them to acquire at least 100K M1911A1 semi-automaticpistols from DOD, and sell to the public. (The GCA regulates interstate commerce of firearmsby generally prohibiting interstate firearms transfers except among licensed manufacturers,dealers and importers.)

Legislative History• National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 1996 (PL 104-106, Section 1601): “There isestablished a private, nonprofit corporation to be known as the Corporation for the Promotion of RiflePractice and Firearms Safety. The Secretary of the Army shall, in accordance with subSection (b),transfer to the Corporation all firearms and ammunition that on the day before the date of theenactment of this Act are under the control of the Director of the Civilian Marksmanship Program,including all firearms on loan to affiliated clubs and State associations;o all firearms in the possession of the Civilian Marksmanship Support Detachment; ando all M–1 Garand and caliber .22 rimfire rifles stored at Anniston Army Depot, Anniston, AL.The Secretary of the Army shall reserve for the Corporation the following All firearms referred to in Section 1615(a).o Ammunition for such firearms.o All M–16 rifles used to support the small arms firing school that are held by the Department of theArmy on the date of the enactment of this Act.o Any parts from, and accessories and accouterments for, surplus caliber .30 and caliber .22 rimfirerifles”.• John Warner National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2007 (PL 109-364, Section 354)“The Secretary of the Army may recover from any country to which rifles, ammunition, repair parts, orother supplies described…furnished on a grant basis under the conditions imposed by Section 505 ofThe Foreign Assistance Act of 1961…” Any rifles, ammunition, repair parts, or suppliesrecovered…shall be available for transfer to the corporation….’’• Department of Defense Appropriations Act, 2010 (PL 111-118, Title VIII, Section 8019)“None of the funds available to the Department of Defense may be used to demilitarize or dispose ofM–1 Carbines, M–1 Garand rifles, M–14 rifles, .22 caliber rifles, .30 caliber rifles, or M–1911 pistols,or to demilitarize or destroy small arms ammunition or ammunition components that are not otherwiseprohibited from commercial sale under Federal law, unless the small arms ammunition or ammunitioncomponents are certified by the Secretary of the Army or designee as unserviceable or unsafe forfurther use”.• HASC Amendment: During HASC markup the Committee adopted an amendment allowing the U.S.Army to transfer excess .45 caliber M1911A1 pistols to CMP.Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP)The CMP is a national organization dedicated to training and educating U. S. citizens in responsible usesof firearms and air guns through gun safety training, marksmanship training, and competitions. The CMPis a federally chartered 501(c) (3) corporation that maintains two headquarters: CMP North at CampPerry near Port Clinton, Ohio, and CMP South in Anniston, Alabama. In accordance with U.S. ArmyGeneral Order 2012-01, the Administrative Assistant to the Secretary of the Army serves as the Army’sliaison to the CMP.CMP HistoryIn 1903 President Theodore Roosevelt and Congress established the National Matches and the NationalBoard for the Promotion of Rifle Practice to support the idea that marksmanship skills developed throughregular practice and competition would contribute to the nation’s defense. When the program expandedto make its competitions and military support available to civilians, it became commonly known as the“Civilian Marksmanship Program”. As the U.S. Army’s interest in marksmanship diminished after WorldWar II, CMP increased its focus on fostering youth development through marksmanship. For over 90years the Army and Department of Defense administered the program until Congress created theCorporation for the Promotion of Rifle Practice and Firearm Safety, Inc. in 1996.References- 36 U.S.C. 407, Corporation for the Promotion of Rifle Practice and Firearms Safety- National Defense Authorization Act for FY 1996 (PL 104-106, Title XVI, Section 1601)- John Warner National Defense Authorization Act for FY 2007 (PL 109-364, Title III, Section 354)- DOD Appropriations Act, 2010 (PL 111-118, Title VIII, Section 8019)- U.S. Army General Order 2012-01- FY14 legislative proposal regarding M1911 pistols (Army sponsored)- FY16 legislative proposal regarding M1911 pistols (REP Mike Rogers sponsored)

[Aguila Blanca]

62coltnavy:

Is there any indication on that paper as to who wrote it? It's so full of grammatical and factual errors that I have trouble believing it could have been generated anywhere within the Department of Defense. It reads more like an assignment in a junior high school creative writing class.

[Evan Thomas]

AG, the original document is here; it's in PDF form and is a bit easier to read. Some (not all) of the errors are from copying the PDF file as text, which seldom works very well.

[kilimanjaro]

I'd want to see the 'paper' on official US Army letterhead with signature endorsements through the command levels, as well as the discussion before it was released to the public.

It doesn't look like a genuine final Army product to me, or at least, written by a junior officer in legislative liason work who's listening to what some DOJ staffer is spewing.

[rickyrick]

Looks like an information paper to consider something someone may or may not have thought about or could have thought about in some future or past concerning nothing.

[Aguila Blanca]

AG, the original document is here; it's in PDF form and is a bit easier to read. Some (not all) of the errors are from copying the PDF file as text, which seldom works very well.

There's still no indication of the authorship or entity creating the document. I can write an "Information Paper" on red-haired French Poodles and post it on the Internet, but it'll hardly be authoritative ... but I can certainly make it appear authoritative.

[FrankenMauser]

...handguns that are virtually untraceable, being released into commerce.

Yea... because the DoD doesn't use serial numbers.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by FrankenMauser

Yea... because the DoD doesn't use serial numbers.

Yeah ... and Colt never put serial numbers on the 1911s they made for the Ordnance Department.

I also took note that in their citation of CMP requirements they conveniently omitted the fact that all purchasers must pass a background check.

[Colt46]

The author of the HuffPo piece is a full on moron. Or, more likely thinks his audience is.

[Evan Thomas]

Originally Posted by AB

I also took note that in their citation of CMP requirements they conveniently omitted the fact that all purchasers must pass a background check.

I'd love to know HuffPo's source for this "document." I Googled the first sentence, and it appears nowhere else on the internet -- other than being quoted here and on THR. It does make one wonder.

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by Vanya

I'd love to know HuffPo's source for this "document."

Ditto; after having a chance to read it closely, I believe it's basically anti-gun political talking points wrapped in fancy-sounding bureaucratic padding.

A couple of key sections just don't wash.

Although the provision does communicate that CMP cannot sell the firearms to prohibited persons, the provision does not include a mechanism to verify and confirm the information obtained through private, internet or mail-order sales. There is no statutory requirement or record keeping obligation for CMP

It's my understanding that the CMP vets buyers more thoroughly than anyone short of the ATF. This statement glosses over the fact that the CMP isn't an ordinary retailer or some fly-by-night mail-order operation with guys simply boxing up guns when they receive a signed order form and a check. Most people willing to undergo the CMP purchase process aren't going to turn around and resell the gun on the street.

Furthermore, the absence of a statutory record-keeping obligation doesn't mean that records aren't being kept, or couldn't be if this is such a serious concern.

There is a significant risk of approximately 100K semi-automatic handguns that are virtually untraceable, being released into commerce.

They will be no more untraceable than any other handgun once it's left the original point of sale, not to mention the many scores of handguns sold in this country prior to the 68 GCA record-keeping requirements.

This sentence seems to speak to the popular misconception that all legitimately purchased guns are "registered" and that the police can track all of them somehow, possibly using mystical faerie magic.

Per DOJ, M1911 pistols are popular crime guns. Over the last 10 years, they traced an average of 1,768 M1911 pistols with a significant percentage (percentage not provided) ultimately identified as surplus U.S. military firearms.

Does this surprise anyone who pays attention to the gun trade, given these pistols' decades of popularity and the proverbial bazillion of them already in circulation?

The writer posits that "a significant percentage" are milsurp - I'd like to see his definition of "significant".

This is like writing that "a significant percentage of fatal accidents and car thefts involve the Honda Accord, thus the Accord is dangerous to drivers and a favorite of criminals." The first part of the statement is unsurprising when one simply considers how many Accords have been sold; the second part is spurious conjecture unless one offers proof that there is something unusual about the Accord compared to other popular midsize sedans.

DOJ believes it would be a challenge to trace these firearms if used in a crime because there will likely be no record of origin and the seller (CMP) is not a licensee and accordingly is not bound to keep records memorializing the transaction (both of which are factors they also believe contribute to diminished public safety).

This restates the concern discussed above. My opinion? Have the CMP send the ATF a list of serial numbers and be done with it. Problem solved.

As discussed above, I seriously doubt that many of these guns will wind up being used in crimes.