FBI to 9mm

[garryc]

After the 1986 Miami shoot out the FBI overcompensated with the 10mm. Then they reduced the load until S+W came out with the 40 S+W. During the shoot out the agents used a 9mm and a snub 38 special.


The 9mm rounds fired by the FBI failed to penetrate enough to take out the heart of one of the criminals. This was a side shot through the arm. That criminal bled out into his lungs, but continued to fight with his Mini-14. The other was hit in the head and neck by a 38 special.


The FBI blamed equipment, in particular the 9mm and the 38 special. I always believed that was mostly incorrect and tactics were the real reason. The FBI tried to compensate with more power in the handgun, yet sacrificed tactically by using a round that was harder to control. The testing, 12-18 inches in ballistic gel through 2 layers of heavy denim is correct in my opinion.


What they are saying here is that current 9mm LE loads meet that requirement. We have to admit that bullets have come a long way in the last 20 odd years since that benchmark shoot out.

FBI 9MM Justification

FBI Training Division: FBI Academy, Quantico, VA

Executive Summary of Justification for Law Enforcement Partners

· Caliber debates have existed in law enforcement for decades

· Most of what is “common knowledge” with ammunition and its effects on the human target are rooted in myth and folklore

· Projectiles are what ultimately wound our adversaries and the projectile needs to be the basis for the discussion on what “caliber” is best

· In all the major law enforcement calibers there exist projectiles which have a high likelihood of failing LEO’s in a shooting incident and there are projectiles which have a high ting incident likelihood of succeeding for LEOs in a shooting incident

· Handgun stopping power is simply a myth

· The single most important factor in effectively wounding a human target is to have penetration to a scientifically valid depth (FBI uses 12” – 18”)

· LEOs miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident

· Contemporary projectiles (since 2007) have dramatically increased the terminal effectiveness of many premium line law enforcement projectiles (emphasis on the 9mm Luger offerings)

· 9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI

· 9mm Luger offers higher magazine capacities, less recoil, lower cost (both in ammunition and wear on the weapons) and higher functional reliability rates (in FBI weapons)

· The majority of FBI shooters are both FASTER in shot strings fired and more ACCURATE with shooting a 9mm Luger vs shooting a .40 S&W (similar sized weapons)

· There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto

· Given contemporary bullet construction, LEO’s can field (with proper bullet selection) 9mm Lugers with all of the terminal performance potential of any other law enforcement pistol caliber with none of the disadvantages present with the “larger” calibers

Justification for Law Enforcement Partners

Rarely in law enforcement does a topic stir a more passionate debate than the choice of handgun caliber made by a law enforcement organization. Many voice their opinions by repeating the old adage “bigger is better” while others have “heard of this one time” where a smaller caliber failed and a larger caliber “would have performed much better.” Some even subscribe to the belief that a caliber exists which will provide a “one shot stop.” It has been stated, “Decisions on ammunition selection are particularly difficult because many of the pertinent issues related to handguns and ammunition are firmly rooted in myth and folklore.” This still holds as true today as it did when originally stated 20 years ago.

Caliber, when considered alone, brings about a unique set of factors to consider such as magazine capacity for a given weapon size, ammunition availability, felt recoil, weight and cost. What is rarely discussed, but most relevant to the caliber debate is what projectile is being considered for use and its terminal performance potential.

One should never debate on a gun make or caliber alone. The projectile is what wounds and ultimately this is where the debate/discussion should focus. In each of the three most common law enforcement handgun calibers (9mm Luger, .40 Smith & Wesson and .45 AUTO) there are projectiles which have a high likelihood of failing law enforcement officers and in each of these three calibers there are projectiles which have a high likelihood of succeeding for law enforcement officers during a shooting incident. The choice of a service projectile must undergo intense scrutiny and scientific evaluation in order to select the best available option.

Understanding Handgun Caliber Terminal Ballistic Realities

Many so called “studies” have been performed and many analyses of statistical data have been undertaken regarding this issue. Studies simply involving shooting deaths are irrelevant since the goal of law enforcement is to stop a threat during a deadly force encounter as quickly as possible. Whether or not death occurs is of no consequence as long as the threat of death or serious injury to law enforcement personnel and innocent third parties is eliminated.

“The concept of immediate incapacitation is the only goal of any law enforcement shooting and is the underlying rationale for decisions regarding weapons, ammunition, calibers and training.”1

Studies of “stopping power” are irrelevant because no one has ever been able to define how much power, force, or kinetic energy, in and of itself, is required to effectively stop a violent and determined adversary quickly, and even the largest of handgun calibers are not capable of delivering such force. Handgun stopping power is simply a myth. Studies of so?called “one shot stops” being used as a tool to define the effectiveness of one handgun cartridge, as opposed to another, are irrelevant due to the inability to account for psychological influences and due to the lack of reporting specific shot placement.

In short, extensive studies have been done over the years to “prove” a certain cartridge is better than another by using grossly flawed methodology and or bias as a precursor to manipulating statistics. In order to have a meaningful understanding of handgun terminal ballistics, one must only deal with facts that are not in dispute within the medical community, i.e. medical realities, and those which are also generally accepted within law enforcement, i.e. tactical realities.

Medical Realities

Shots to the Central Nervous System (CNS) at the level of the cervical spine (neck) or above, are the only means to reliably cause immediate incapacitation. In this case, any of the calibers commonly used in law enforcement, regardless of expansion, would suffice for obvious reasons. Other than shots to the CNS, the most reliable means for affecting rapid incapacitation is by placing shots to large vital organs thus causing rapid blood loss. Simply stated, shot placement is the most critical component to achieving either method of incapacitation.

Wounding factors between rifle and handgun projectiles differ greatly due to the dramatic differences in velocity, which will be discussed in more detail herein. The wounding factors, in order of importance, are as follows:

A. Penetration:

A projectile must penetrate deeply enough into the body to reach the large vital organs, namely heart, lungs, aorta, vena cava and to a lesser extent liver and spleen, in order to cause rapid blood loss. It has long been established by expert medical professionals, experienced in evaluating gunshot wounds, that this equates to a range of penetration of 12?18 inches, depending on the size of the individual and the angle of the bullet path (e.g., through arm, shoulder, etc.). With modern properly designed, expanding handgun bullets, this objective is realized, albeit more consistently with some law enforcement projectiles than others. 1 Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness: Firearms Training Unit, Ballistic Research Facility, 1989.

B. Permanent Cavity:

The extent to which a projectile expands determines the diameter of the permanent cavity which, simply put, is that tissue which is in direct contact with the projectile and is therefore destroyed. Coupled with the distance of the path of the projectile (penetration), the total permanent cavity is realized. Due to the elastic nature of most human tissue and the low velocity of handgun projectiles relative to rifle projectiles, it has long been established by medical professionals, experienced in evaluating gunshot wounds, that the damage along a wound path visible at autopsy or during surgery cannot be distinguished between the common handgun calibers used in law enforcement. That is to say an operating room surgeon or Medical Examiner cannot distinguish the difference between wounds caused by .35 to .45 caliber projectiles.

C. Temporary Cavity:

The temporary cavity is caused by tissue being stretched away from the permanent cavity. If the temporary cavity is produced rapidly enough in elastic tissues, the tensile strength of the tissue can be exceeded resulting in tearing of the tissue. This effect is seen with very high velocity projectiles such as in rifle calibers, but is not seen with handgun calibers. For the temporary cavity of most handgun projectiles to have an effect on wounding, the velocity of the projectile needs to exceed roughly 2,000 fps. At the lower velocities of handgun rounds, the temporary cavity is not produced with sufficient velocity to have any wounding effect; therefore any difference in temporary cavity noted between handgun calibers is irrelevant. “In order to cause significant injuries to a structure, a pistol bullet must strike that structure directly.”2 2 DiMaio, V.J.M.: Gunshot Wounds, Elsevier Science Publishing Company, New York, NY, 1987, page 42.

D. Fragmentation:

Fragmentation can be defined as “projectile pieces or secondary fragments of bone which are impelled outward from the permanent cavity and may sever muscle tissues, blood vessels, etc., apart from the permanent cavity”3. Fragmentation does not reliably occur in soft tissue handgun wounds due to the low velocities of handgun bullets. When fragmentation does occur, fragments are usually found within one centimeter (.39”) of the permanent cavity.4 Due to the fact that most modern premium law enforcement ammunition now commonly uses bonded projectiles (copper jacket bonded to lead core), the likelihood of fragmentation is very low. For these reasons, wounding effects secondary to any handgun caliber bullet fragmentation are considered inconsequential. 3 Fackler, M.L., Malinowski, J.A.: “The Wound Profile: A Visual Method for Quantifying Gunshot Wound Components”, Journal of Trauma 25: 522?529, 1958. 4 Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness: Firearms Training Unit, Ballistic Research Facility, 1989.

Psychology

Any discussion of stopping armed adversaries with a handgun has to include the psychological state of the adversary. Psychological factors are probably the most important relative to achieving rapid incapacitation from a gunshot wound to the torso.5 First and foremost, the psychological effects of being shot can never be counted on to stop an individual from continuing conscious voluntary action. Those who do stop commonly do so because they decide to, not because they have to.

The effects of pain are often delayed due to survival patterns secondary to “fight or flight” reactions within the body, drug/alcohol influences and in the case of extreme anger or aggression, pain can simply be ignored. Those subjects who decide to stop immediately after being shot in the torso do so commonly because they know they have been shot and are afraid of injury or death, regardless of caliber, velocity, or bullet design. It should also be noted that psychological factors can be a leading cause of incapacitation failures and as such, proper shot placement, adequate penetration, and multiple shots on target cannot be over emphasized. 5 Ibid.

Tactical Realities

Shot placement is paramount and law enforcement officers on average strike an adversary with only 20 – 30 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident. Given the reality that shot placement is paramount (and difficult to achieve given the myriad of variables present in a deadly force encounter) in obtaining effective incapacitation, the caliber used must maximize the likelihood of hitting vital organs. Typical law enforcement shootings result in only one or two solid torso hits on the adversary. This requires that any projectile which strikes the torso has as high a probability as possible of penetrating deeply enough to disrupt a vital organ.

The Ballistic Research Facility has conducted a test which compares similar sized Glock pistols in both .40 S&W and 9mm calibers, to determine if more accurate and faster hits are achievable with one versus the other. To date, the majority of the study participants have shot more quickly and more accurately with 9mm caliber Glock pistols. The 9mm provides struggling shooters the best chance of success while improving the speed and accuracy of the most skilled shooters.

Conclusion

While some law enforcement agencies have transitioned to larger calibers from the 9mm Luger in recent years, they do so at the expense of reduced magazine capacity, more felt recoil, and given adequate projectile selection, no discernible increase in terminal performance.

Other law enforcement organizations seem to be making the move back to 9mm Luger taking advantage of the new technologies which are being applied to 9mm Luger projectiles. These organizations are providing their armed personnel the best chance of surviving a deadly force encounter since they can expect faster and more accurate shot strings, higher magazine capacities (similar sized weapons) and all of the terminal performance which can be expected from any law enforcement caliber projectile.

Given the above realities and the fact that numerous ammunition manufacturers now make 9mm Luger service ammunition with outstanding premium line law enforcement projectiles, the move to 9mm Luger can now be viewed as a decided advantage for our armed law enforcement personnel.

[9x18_Walther]

What they are saying here is that current 9mm LE loads meet that requirement. We have to admit that bullets have come a long way in the last 20 odd years since that benchmark shoot out.

For starters there was nothing really wrong with the equipment at the 1986 shootout. The FBI wanted to put blame on the equipment rather than the officers and their training. One of the suspects was hit with a fatal wound with the 9mm Silvertip.

Inadequate backup and contingency planning, poor personnel decision (eyeglasses falling off), rumors of reduced recoil .38 Special rounds being used, rumors magazines not being loaded to the maximum capacity, etc.

The cheap 115 grain Winchester White Box JHP is exactly the same as the Winchester Super-X Silvertip. This round isn't considered good, but is vastly better than the Silvertip of yore.

Ranger, HST, etc. are miles ahead of modern Silvertips and decades ahead of the Silvertips of the 80s.

[T. O'Heir]

"...rather than the officers and their training..." Or lack of skill.
Find it odd that a lot of people think the FBI is the be all and end all arbiter of things that go bang. Everything a government agency does is based on their budget and little else.
"...the Silvertips of the 80s..." Were semi-jacketed SP's. Advocated for small calibres like .25, .32 and .380 back then. Silvertips are still sold, but are not the same thing.

[9x18_Walther]

Find it odd that a lot of people think the FBI is the be all and end all arbiter of things that go bang.

If a round doesn't meet the FBI requirements, it won't do any damage. Am I right?

[g.willikers]

"A poor craftsman blames his tools."
Author unknown, but accurate.

[OldMarksman]

Folks, this is old news, discussed here about a year ago.

[mete]

I spoke to a friend this morning after he made statements about trusting the 'experts' , the FBI.
I explained too examples to contradict him. This all in Congressional hearings . A period where the FBI hade very poorly run laboratories .And some years later where the FBI falsified data !!
Sadly we can no longer trust anything the Gov't says !

[1-DAB]

from personal experience, i can shoot a 9mm faster and more accurately than 40 or 45. it carries more rounds in a magazine, and the ammo i carry has passed the FBI tests, as verified by the manufacturer of the ammo (info on their website). so it's good to see the expensive FBI come to the same conclusions i came to, and i did it for far cheaper.

[SocialAnarchist]

Honestly, I couldn't care less what the FBI chooses for their handgun round. They bounce around, spend a ton of money testing and then still change their minds every several years.

If you can hit what you are shooting at and cause adequate damage to the shooter to end the fight, that is the right round for you.

[mavracer]

FBI 9MM Justification

One of the synonyms of justification is excuse and my dad always told me an excuse is nothing more than the reason you did something wrong.

Ultimately there is no correct answer "run what you brung and hope you brung enough"

[trapper9260]

The FBI is not what alot think they are.I had work with some years ago and they do not really have a clue of to keep others inform of what is going on.also they all act and dress about the same.To them if it dose not work for there thinking then it is no good. Same gose with the 9mm rounds.All they know how to really do is use up money to take care of a problem that they do not want to see what is there problem in the first place.Yes they are not training the way they should for the job they are to do.In usen a handgun.

[TimSr]

When it comes to real world firefights, I would think there are a lot more state, county, and city agencies with much more experience, with criminals that probably more closely ressemble the perps in the street that the average person is probably more likely to run into.

No, I don't have any statistics, but when you think of the number of FBI shootouts what are federal crimes, compared to what some city police deal with, and what are state crimes, I would think the differnce in the numbers would be pretty significant.

[Jim243]

While we are talking about the 9 mm, I have to agree that the skill and training of the person doing the shooting is much more important than the caliber of the firearm. Is bigger better?? Not when it comes to placing hits on target. If your shot is a miss, it maters not what caliber you are using. If the best you can do is shoot someone in the leg then the results maybe less than stellar.

The more accurate you can be with a firearm, the better the probability of survival. It has been proven time and again that the rifle is more effective at stopping an attacker than a hand gun. But, that presents other problems as to concealment and ease of carrying something around for personal protection.

While there are many that are proficient with the 45 Auto and 40 S&W, the 9 mm gives MOST the ability to reliably put hits on target, more so than almost any other caliber (the 22 LR the exception.) It is not by accident that the Glock 17 and it's variants are the most popular in the handgun world.

Is it the end all of stopping power, NO. Is it a good compromise in ammo capacity, ease of use and accuracy for the majority of the population on this planet, I think so, it has been around for about 100 years. Is today's ammo of much better quality than that of the past, YES.

If stopping power was the solution, we would all be carrying a 10 mm, 50 AE, 44 mag or S&W 454. If you fear that a 300 to 500 lbs bear is going to attack you, that might be your choice. But as to me, I see no problem carrying 14 to 19 rounds of 9 mm and practicing as often as I can to keep my skills up.

Stay safe.
Jim

[Skans]

I never understood why the FBI or anyone in law enforcement aren't given a choice of handguns/calibers of: 9mm, .40 45acp and 10mm. The one-size-fits-all is a stupid premise. And, if Walmart and every gun-store in the US can figure out how to stock ammo in more than just one caliber, I'm sure someone at the FBI with an IQ over 100 can figure this out too.

the 9 mm gives MOST the ability to reliably put hits on target, more so than almost any other caliber (the 22 LR the exception.) It is not by accident that the Glock 17 and it's variants are the most popular in the handgun world.

I'm not part of that "most" category. While I'm a good shot with many 9mm's, the worst (in terms of accuracy) for me is my Glock 17.

[Kosh75287]

SKANS raises a valid point. I'd wager that the FBI is involved in more shoot-outs than an ammo case in WalMart, but still, inventorying 2 or three calibers of ammo would seem to be within the capabilities of the FBI.

I've also wondered how long the shootout might have lasted if the FBI had been given access to rifled slugs for their shotguns, or been issued a .30-30 lever action carbine. I'd expect either to penetrate deep enough to take out a creep, even one protected by car doors or body armour.

[2damnold4this]

The FBI currently issues .45acp, .40 S&W and 9mm handgun cartridges. They also issue the 10mm, 5.56, .308 and 12 gauge for use in long guns.

I imagine the FBI will continue to issue a variety of handgun cartridges for some time. But since most of their agents would be better served with the 9mm, I would expect they might start phasing out other cartridges or just issuing them to special units.

[OldMarksman]

Posted by TimSr:

When it comes to real world firefights, I would think there are a lot more state, county, and city agencies with much more experience, with criminals that probably more closely ressemble the perps in the street that the average person is probably more likely to run into.

I'm not sure quite what that is supposed to mean, but had you read Handgun Wounding Effectiveness, you would understand that the FBI protocols are not based on "experience" in "real world gunfights".

Do you believe that some criminals somehow "more closely resemble the perps in the street that the average person is probably more likely to run into" than do others?

No, I don't have any statistics, but when you think of the number of FBI shootouts what are federal crimes, compared to what some city police deal with, and what are state crimes, I would think the differnce in the numbers would be pretty significant.

How in the world would whether someone is enforcing a law pertaining to a Federal crime or one that pertains to a state crime have any bearing on the subject at all?

Tom Givens points out in "Lessons from the Streets that there are some significant differences between police experiences and civilian experiences. Civilians are not called to break up fight in bars, to intervene in domestic violence cases, or to make traffic stops. From that standpoint, FBI use of force engagements more closely resemble those of civilians than those of uniformed officers.

[johnwilliamson062]

National park rangers probably get into the most firefights that resemble the ones civilians CCWers are likely to get into.
Help is minutes or more away. Probably no armor. No vehicle with a rifle close by. Any number of assailants with any number of weapons. Anything from drug smuggler to poachers. I've read it is actually the most dangerous federal law enforcement job.

Once while backpacking I walked up on a back country ranger who was taking a swim. His handgun left on a rock at the edge of the water with his radio. Twenty foot swim for him and ten foot walk for me when I noticed it. Miles and miles from another ranger and probably from anyone else at all. I m sure that was what he was thinking when he decided to swim. As a back country ranger it probably doubled as a bath. He was understandably uneasy.

[Kosh75287]

Or perhaps incidents in which the FBI is involved represent a statistical "middle ground" between what a civilian might experience and what municipal or state police officers might experience. I don't envision FBI agents intervening in domestic violence incidents very often at all, whereas Munis and Staties probably see a good many of them. Civilians might not EVER be involved in a domestic incident, unless perhaps they are related to one of the participants. On the other hand, I could envision Muni, State and Federal officers in pursuit of fleeing bank robbers, while a civilian, if aware of it at all, would likely (and wisely) side-step any such festivities.

[Rifleman1952]

All I know is, that the Federal HST round in 9mm is as close to perfection, that has ever been made available to the general public.

Yes I own a 45 and I still love my 45, and yes you can get the Federal HST in other calibers, but the improvement in performance in the 9mm HST has been the most dramatic.

In past decades, there was an advantage (IMHO) to carrying a 40 or 45 over the 9mm. But I don't believe that to be true anymore. And my view has nothing to do with what the FBI or any federal agency does.

Right now it seems we are living in sort of a "golden age" of ammo development for civilian use. I'm glad to still be around to see it.

[mavracer]

In past decades, there was an advantage (IMHO) to carrying a 40 or 45 over the 9mm. But I don't believe that to be true anymore.

I keep hearing this mantra repeated, why do you think it isn't? The 40 and 45 still have the same advantage of ~20% more momentum which in soft tissue leads to ~20% larger permanent cavity. The odds that the 20% is going to make a difference hasn't changed either.
I've said it before they're all a compromise and "best compromise" is an oxymoron

[TimSr]

How in the world would whether someone is enforcing a law pertaining to a Federal crime or one that pertains to a state crime have any bearing on the subject at all?

Civilians are not called to break up fight in bars, to intervene in domestic violence cases, or to make traffic stops.

Substitute FBI for "civilians" and you've answered your own question.

From that standpoint, FBI use of force engagements more closely resemble those of civilians than those of uniformed officers.

Really? Civilans are called to arrest counterfeiters, solve kidnappings, find interstate serial killers, mail fraud, investigate "hate crimes" and terror cells?

Seriously, you think that the people the FBI encounter in the course of their duties more closely ressemble the bad actors we might encounter in our life than our local police and sheriff?

[OldMarksman]

Posted by maracer:

The 40 and 45 still have the same advantage of ~20% more momentum which in soft tissue leads to ~20% larger permanent cavity.

Do you have a demonstrated basis for asserting the size of the permanent cavity is directly proportional to momentum, all other things being equal?

The odds that the 20% is going to make a difference hasn't changed either.

What are those odds, and how do they relate to the odds that additional hits will "make a difference"?

Rob Pincus on the subject:

The damage that is done is created through cutting and crushing. The difference of a few grains of weight, a few feet per second of speed or a millimeter (literally) of diameter are not worth giving up on the faster strings of fire or the higher capacity mentioned above. While the .40 S&W round, especially in heavier versions, has more potential for penetration of intermediate barriers, the data on actual personal defense shooting suggests overwhelmingly that there are not likely to be any hard barriers to be penetrated.

Physics dictates that the 9mm is going to be a more manageable round (lower recoil) than the .40 S&W out of any particular firearm. So, no matter how much you train and how much you practice, everyone should be able to shoot a string of Combat Accurate 9mm rounds faster than they can fire a string of .40.


It is important to note that I am not arguing that a single .40S&W bullet doesn’t hold more potential to stop in any event, rather I believe that the small increase in potential is not worth the absolute known detriments in recoil and capacity.

As I discussed in point number one, for all shooters, at some point, there will be a moment when they can fire one more round of 9mm in any given period of time. That extra round’s capacity to wound will far outweigh the miniscule difference in potential for any individual bullets.

http://www.imakenews.com/valhalla/e_...1b43S,bbSbHJ7K

[OldMarksman]

Posted by TimSr:

Substitute FBI for "civilians" and you've answered your own question.

And my question was rhetorical, intended to point out the similarity between civilian encounters and those of FBI agents, and the differences between those and the encounters of uniformed police officers.

Really? Civilans are called to arrest counterfeiters, solve kidnappings, find interstate serial killers, mail fraud, investigate "hate crimes" and terror cells?

Certainly civilians do not do those things for a living; they do other things. But that is not the point. The point is, that since neither civilians nor FBI agents are called upon to break up fight in bars, to intervene in domestic violence cases, or to make traffic stops, their use of force engagements, which are defensive in nature and which do not have to do with enforcement of the law in circumstances that start out violently, are likely to be much more similar to those of FBI agents than to those of unformed sworn officers.

As a I recall, Tom Givens provides some useful discussion of that point, and an example or two.

Seriously, you think that the people the FBI encounter in the course of their duties more closely ressemble the bad actors we might encounter in our life than our local police and sheriff?

In terms of height, weight, age, and condition, I see no reason for any overall difference in resemblance.

But if there is any, I fail to see how it might have anything to do with the weapons performance parameters tested and recommended for law enforcement by the FBI.

And perhaps you missed that last point: the recommendation from the FBI training division at Quantico was intended for law enforcement agencies and law enforcement officers.

[Catfishman]

I keep hearing that ammo technology has improved so much that 9 mm ammo is as good as 40 Cal and 45 ammo.
That begs the question, didn't 45 ammo and 40 cal also improve?
And isn't all handgun ammo underpowered? So if we have a technological improvement shouldn't we go to 45 ACP or 10 mm and not back to 9 mm?