|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
October 8, 2015, 07:33 AM | #76 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 11,775
|
I think it's impossible to generalize and arrive at a concise answer--it depends too much on the variables of the situation. In my OPINION it mostly comes down to determining whether or not the intruders are simply intending on a robbery--or at what point that becomes a perceived threat to you personally--and that's were most of the ambiguity lies. Most burglars attempt to plan around nobody being home, but in some situations they MIGHT be fully prepared to subdue, kidnap or even kill anyone if they happen to be at home and confront them. I always assume that's a possibility when there is a deliberate trespass on my properties (which are posted). When someone breaks into a home that escalates the possibility of a bad outcome if someone is at home. Bailing out of the home might make sense in some cases--but if it is dark you are potentially abandoning cover into an unfamiliar situation outside the home.
__________________
"Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk! |
October 8, 2015, 08:39 AM | #77 | ||||
Staff
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 4,022
|
Posted by TimSr::
Quote:
However, here are a lot of people who can speak very authoritatively about how use of force cases will be handled. And yes, the are one variations in procedure among jurisdictions. Varying attitudes among law enforcement can have some influence on how things unfold. Varying attitudes among prosecutors, even between one prosecutor and his or her successor, can certainly make a difference in what an actor may face. Judges? Not so much--everything they do is subject to review. Quote:
Quote:
But if it gets that far, things haven't gone well except for the defense attorneys billing their hours. The laws, relevant appellate decisions, jury instructions reflecting those decisions, rules of evidence, and so forth are all there for the knowledgeable to evaluate. The jurors will judge on the basis of the evidence that they are shown. Even all of the evidence that might be brought forth to be considered for admissibility will be extremely incomplete. These things do not take place on a sound stage. If one of the persons is hurt, whether the jury is instructed to rule on self defense will depend upon the evidence. As has been discussed, if self defense is not at issue, use of deadly force is pretty well ruled out just about everywhere. Quote:
You become aware of someone outside fooling around with property. You step outside--coming from just where your emergence will have been predicted and can be seen. You approach the perp for the purpose of "confronting" them. But you are now out in the great outdoors. How many are they? Where are they? Do any of them have firearms? Those are the reasons why most good trainers do not advise going outside to confront anyone in the first place. |
||||
October 8, 2015, 08:54 AM | #78 | |
Staff
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 4,022
|
Posted by stagpanther:
Quote:
First, you are correct in point out that robbery is a horse of a different color. It is not a property crime. The laws of self defense apply. Burglary is extremely serious, and if the house is occupied, the safety of the occupants becomes the issue. I'm not aware of any jurisdiction in which one would be expected to leave the home, and to do so may well be fraught with danger. Be very careful what dealing with trespass. People have served time for confronting trespassers while armed (in "conservative" states, by the way). Laws really do vary from state to state, and by a fair amount if my impression is correct, and it would be a very good idea to speak to a knowledgeable local attorney about yours. |
|
October 8, 2015, 08:58 AM | #79 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: March 8, 2013
Location: Rittman, Ohio
Posts: 2,074
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
October 8, 2015, 09:18 AM | #80 | ||||||
Staff
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 4,022
|
Posted by TimSr::
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The severity of the potential consequences is very high. Quote:
|
||||||
October 8, 2015, 11:31 AM | #81 | |
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
Quote:
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
|
October 8, 2015, 11:54 AM | #82 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 27, 2007
Posts: 607
|
I would absolutely not risk my life for someone's property...and I wouldn't for my own property either. I would use self defense for myself and my wife in my home or someone's home I am "sitting," but not my property.
I know of one guy sitting in jail waiting on a capital murder trial because he decided to use deadly force to protect his own stuff....which is illegal in my state. I also kinda agree with that law and I would hate to be that guy sitting in jail. I also know that I've been ripped off a few times and have come home to find my house robbed. It does sting...but it still isn't worth taking a life over. Technology also helps to keep things safer. Quality locks/doors, a good loud dog, quality video recording, a charged cell phone ready to call the cops, keeping records of property, keeping insurance up to date and at a good level to cover losses....these things are more important than confronting some thief.
__________________
.327 SP101 3", .327 Blackhawk, S&W 627 V-Comp, S&W 686+ 5", S&W 686+ 3", S&W 581 4", Ruger no.1 .243, TC Contender, Stoeger .410 SxS, some sort of SKS |
October 8, 2015, 12:19 PM | #83 | |
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
Quote:
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
|
October 8, 2015, 12:28 PM | #84 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 6,429
|
Frank, I've read each and every one of those. It's harrowing to read...
Simply answer to the OP's question: No. |
October 8, 2015, 12:33 PM | #85 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 8, 2013
Location: Rittman, Ohio
Posts: 2,074
|
yeah, and in other news, in MY world of Wayne County, Ohio :
http://www.thepostnewspapers.com/nor...fd9613f1c.html Sheriff Hunter's words in the last paragraph sum up my point: “While I certainly don’t recommend handling things like this, I can understand and appreciate his emotions,” Hunter said. “Criminals need to consider that out in the rural areas, many of the people are armed and will protect their lives and their property with whatever means they deem necessary.” |
October 8, 2015, 12:51 PM | #86 | ||
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
Quote:
The point is that one can not make categorical statements. Outcomes are fact dependent.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
||
October 8, 2015, 01:56 PM | #87 | ||||||||
Staff
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 4,022
|
TimSr:
Quote:
But in this case it did turn out okay. The man grabbed a gun and pursued. Most of us recommend against it, but he did it. Quote:
Then things got a little hotter: Quote:
Quote:
But something else happened: Quote:
But then: Quote:
Quote:
Everyone is very fortunate that no shooting occurred. That Leasure had pursued the thieves with a gun could have made any defense of justification quite difficult indeed. Now, whether Leasure's actions were lawful has not been determined: Quote:
The outcome as it stands is much more attributable to good luck than to good thinking. |
||||||||
October 8, 2015, 02:39 PM | #88 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: March 8, 2013
Location: Rittman, Ohio
Posts: 2,074
|
Quote:
The point I have been making is that what is considered "reasonable" in Wayne Co. may not be considered reasonable by you, but you're not sitting on our municipal court bench. The sheriff mentioned what thieves could expect who target rural folk in Wayne Co. Quote:
I know my lawful limits. I prefer that the local thieves NOT know that I know my lawful limits. |
||
October 8, 2015, 02:53 PM | #89 | |
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
Quote:
You're of course free to act in your life based on what you think you know. But our concern is that others who are reading your posts, insofar as you are purporting to be addressing legal issues, understand the limitations of your knowledge and that your opinions should not be accepted as reliable guidance in their own lives.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
|
October 8, 2015, 02:55 PM | #90 | |
Staff
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 4,022
|
Simple Question, Multiple Facets
The question was about risking one's life for someone else's property.
I would expand it to risking one's life for property, period. It just doesn't seem like a very well considered risk at all. The first and most obvious concern is one of physical danger. The legal aspects have been more than touched upon here. We can summarize by saying that except in one or two places, and under very few circumstances in those, deadly force may not be lawfully used to protect moveable, tangible property. We have discussed the fact that defending against robbery would not be considered defending property. Every now and then someone suggests setting out with a weapon to "confront" a thief. That brings up a couple of things:
That's because the use of force situation could have been avoided in the first place. Self defense laws do vary somewhat from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but I think that with one exception, these salient points from the law in Ohio, which was brought up in one post, are rather well representative of the way things are around the country: Ohio Supreme Court, State v. Melchior, 56 Ohio St. 2d 15 (1978) Many states no longer impose a duty to retreat. |
|
October 8, 2015, 03:17 PM | #91 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: In a state of flux
Posts: 7,520
|
When you pull and use a gun, you are gambling literally everything you have on getting it right during the event and being legally justified afterward. You are gambling your physical life. You are betting your job, your home, and every penny you have in the bank. At risk is your marriage, your ability to share a bed with the person you love, and your ability to watch your children grow up in person instead of from jail. You place on the table every friendship you’ve ever made, every dollar you’ve ever earned or will earn, and your family’s future happiness. You are risking sleep disturbances, flashbacks, nightmares, impotence, anorexia, alcoholism, drug reliance, and a long and bitter lifetime of regret if you get it wrong. That is the gamble you take when you use a firearm against another human being.
To take a gamble that big, it’s a good idea to be overwhelmingly certain there’s no other way out. Quote:
(By the way, I'm not being snarky about Onalaska not really being a town; it's actually a population cluster of around 300 people, and its existence is defined by the US Postal Service rather than by any formal articles of incorporation. There's no mayor, no town council, and no city government. This is as rural as it gets.) In April Homeowner Kills Intruder in Onalaska -- A homeowner who interrupted a possible burglary late Monday fatally shot the intruder, officials said. ... The homeowner told investigators that he heard a noise, opened the garage and fired at a person who was shining a flashlight in his eyes.In July Detectives: Fatal Onalaska shooting was self-defense -- An Onalaska homeowner who interrupted a burglary and fatally shot an intruder in April will not be arrested, Lewis County Sheriff's deputies said Monday, adding they believe the shooting was justified under self-defense statutes.... Detectives say their investigation determined the McKenzie's were in the process of burglarizing the place, and that the homeowner was rightfully defending himself in firing the shots.... The Sheriff's office says it will still forward its findings to the Lewis County prosecutor's office for review, but deputies would not be taking the homeowner into custody. Sheriff's Office Says Onalaska Shooter Acted in Self-Defense -- "People have a right to protect themselves, their families, and property in a lawful manner as defined by the laws of this state. If you create or put yourself in a situation where someone has a legal right to use deadly force against you that is a risk you take." -- Sheriff Steve MansfieldIn September Onalaska Homeowner Charged with Manslaughter -- The Onalaska property owner who shot at two people he believed to be intruders has been charged with first-degree manslaughter in the April shooting death of Thomas McKenzie, as well as first-degree assault in the attempted shooting of McKenzie's wife Joanna, according to papers filed Wednesday by the Lewis County Prosecutor's Office....In November Onalaska homeowner who shot intruder now faces first-degree murder -- An Onalaska man is now charged with first-degree murder rather than manslaughter after shooting to death a man who attempted to burglarize his home April 19... Brady, 60, is also charged with first-degree assault for shooting at the dead man’s wife. Prosecutors say Brady’s late-September manslaughter charge was actually “conservative,” considering facts in the case.In June Jury Convicts Onalaska Homeowner of 2nd Degree Manslaughter -- A Lewis County jury Friday night acquitted Ronald Brady of murder charges but found him guilty of second-degree manslaughter in the April 19, 2010, shooting death of Thomas McKenzie at Brady's Onalaska area home. Brady, who contended he shot at McKenzie and his wife in self defense, will remain free until sentencing...In July Onalaska man gets more than 5 years for 2010 shooting at his home -- Ronald A. Brady was sentenced to 63 months in prison Wednesday for second-degree manslaughter in the April 2010 shooting death of an intruder at his Onalaska-area home. Prosecutors had requested the full sentencing range of 63 months, which includes three mandatory years of prison time for a firearm enhancement.All of the above really underscores some important points. One of them is that we should not rely upon being in a gun-friendly jurisdiction, or trust the initial statements from a popular, elected sheriff, when we consider what risks we are personally willing to take. Instead, we should have a firm understanding of the law, and we should firmly reject any attempts to flirt with the boundary line between "defending self" and "defending property." As for me? I am willing to use my firearms to protect innocent human life -- and that's it. Nothing else justifies the use of deadly force, neither in my jurisdiction's law nor in my own sense of personal ethics. pax |
|
October 8, 2015, 03:18 PM | #92 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 8, 2013
Location: Rittman, Ohio
Posts: 2,074
|
Quote:
So go ahead and tell me one last time that I am a moron, and lock the thread. |
|
October 8, 2015, 03:22 PM | #93 | |||
Staff
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 4,022
|
See Post 91
Posted by TimSr:
Quote:
He can be charged up to the day he dies or is pardoned or the statute of limitation expires. He will not be free from the risk of criminal penalties until one of those events occurs or (1) he is tried and acquitted in court, or (2) his case is dismissed with prejudice. Had he killed someone, the statute of limitations would never run out. And had he killed someone, the likelihood of charges would be much higher. EDIT--see post 91 for a real world example Chasing someone is very unwise indeed, and is physically dangerous. Shooting a shotgun at his truck is downright foolhardy, and is unlawful, absent justification based on immediate necessity. For shooting someone after having gone after him, there is probably no defense that would likely prevail. Quote:
What matters is the case law established by the Ohio Supreme Court. I'm sure you intended to refer to the Wayne County Court of Common Pleas. The point you have been making is not well founded. Quote:
|
|||
October 8, 2015, 03:43 PM | #94 | |||||
Staff
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 4,022
|
Posted by TimSr:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
What Frank said was "based on what I've read of your posts, that your understanding of the law and legal matters is superficial and questionable at best". He went on to say "our concern is that others who are reading your posts, insofar as you are purporting to be addressing legal issues, understand the limitations of your knowledge and that your opinions should not be accepted as reliable guidance in their own lives." "Reliable guidance" is not the something as legal advice. Last edited by OldMarksman; October 8, 2015 at 04:11 PM. Reason: phraseology |
|||||
October 8, 2015, 06:19 PM | #95 | |||
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
Quote:
Even though Hickey, Abshire and Fish were ultimately exonerated, the cost to them was enormous. But in their cases they might well have had no choice but to have paid the price since they might not have otherwise survived their incidents. Quote:
Quote:
I'd also like to add on a personally note that while I have some experience successfully teaching beginners the rudiments of shooting, Kathy has far more knowledge and experience than I, especially when it comes to providing self defense oriented training. I'm happy to defer to her expertise on such matters.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
|||
October 8, 2015, 06:27 PM | #96 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 11,775
|
All of this is true--but the flip side is, if you have have a weapon and are NOT prepared to use it if necessary--then you're better off not having one.
The "if necessary" is why we have the 2nd amendment to begin with IMO.
__________________
"Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk! |
October 8, 2015, 06:51 PM | #97 | |
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
Quote:
And that said, as far a us on this board are concerned you can use your gun whenever you want. We're just not going to sit back and let you lead others astray.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
|
October 8, 2015, 08:45 PM | #98 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: In a state of flux
Posts: 7,520
|
Quote:
A person interested in armed self-defense often finds himself walking a narrow ridge between two equally unpleasant alternatives. On one side, there is the risk of responding too soon, with too much force, or with unwarranted violence. Erring in that direction sends him stumbling over the rocky cliffs of the American legal system, where even the smallest action can have huge consequences that affect the entire life. "Better to be tried by twelve ..." as the saying goes, but anyone with an ounce of sense knows that an 8x12 cell isn't much of a life. On the other side of the ridge lies the stony valley of death or severe injury caused by responding too slowly—or by not responding at all—to a life-threatening attack. Of the two dangers, most people rightly fear death more than they fear the tender ministrations of the legal system. And that's as it should be, but it doesn't mean you should be uninformed about or unwilling to consider the laws that affect an armed citizen. Quite the contrary! The only true victory in a dangerous encounter is to walk away with all of your life intact: your ability to breathe, your good health, your family's safety, and your own freedom. Anything else is a loss. pax |
|
October 8, 2015, 09:23 PM | #99 |
Staff
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 4,022
|
Post #98...
...expresses extremely clearly, and as well as I have ever seen, all of the really important thoughts I have had on this subject since I started carrying a firearm seven years ago.
I have started many times over the years to compose that post, and have never been able to complete it. |
October 8, 2015, 11:57 PM | #100 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 11,775
|
Quote:
Taken to the extreme--you can be advocating gun control.
__________________
"Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk! |
|
|
|