What justifies the special black powder seasons these days?

[keano44]

Different strokes for different folks!
Maybe you are into "traditional" hunting, fine. I am into DEER hunting. I don't care what the method is, I love deer hunting. I've taken them with shotgun, rifle, handgun, blackpowder, and bow and arrow.
Breaking up hunters as a whole, into smaller groups, is not a good idea these days. If you like to hunt, and want to keep hunting, whatever your method, your "right" will be around longer if we stick together.

[ed mason]

Well said keano.Everyone needs to take a chill out pill for god's sake.Its only one or two weeks a year we are talking about and
we are talking about MUZZLELOADERS,not breach loading firearms.If it loads from the muzzle I don't see why anyone
should have a problem with it.If you are a re-enactor or a purest at heart then don't include the inline guys in your group.Then
you don't have to look at the zipgun's in your camp.

[keano44]

Attn: Traditional Hunters- Where do YOU draw the line?

During this recently past Muzzleloader season, I was lucky enough to take a nice doe. Here's the way it happened; My electric alarm clock woke me up at 3:00am, and I drove my pickup truck pulling my welded aluminum boat w/40hp outboard motor one hour to the State Wildlife Management Area. After docking the boat, I used a Q-beam light (to see through the thick south LA fog), drove my boat about four miles down a bayou. Did I mention it was cold and raining since I woke up that morning? Well its OK because I was wearing my Gore-tex raincoat, and Polypropylene underwear, and Gore-tex/Thinsulate gloves. Upon docking the boat, I slipped on my Red Ball chest waders to cross the 3 1/2 ft deep slough which I knew was ahead of me, if I wanted to get away from the other hunters, and get to where the deer were ( I knew from doing my homework beforehand). Then I strapped my welded aluminum treestand on my back, pre-loaded my Remington 700ML SS (except for the cap, of course, for this I wait until I am situated in my stand) and put a small balloon over the end of the barrell. Did I mention it is still pouring down rain? Once I crossed the deep slough, found my tree, climbed up and set up my tree-stand umbrella over my head, I settled in for a nice comfortable, dry (almost) hunt. Now I capped my gun, closed the bolt, which had the weather shield installed, with the vent hole sealed with Thompsons Bore Butter. All this took place before daylight, but it was OK because I had my flashlight and fresh batteries. Once daylight came, I sat under my umbrella for three more hours before the rain stopped. Nothing was moving around that morning even though it was the peak of the rut, and I had found incredible amounts of buck sign around my stand, and had seen does here on recent previous hunts. At 9:20 am a big fat doe came walking through the water straight towards me. I watched her to see if she was acting like a doe being followed by a buck; but she had not a care in the world, was just as cool as could be. I quickly decided that I deserved to take this doe, since I had hunted all through bucks-only rifle season and had only seen does, and one little button buck (who was legal as the buttons were broke through the skin) which I let go. And I had hunted all day the previous day, fighting this rain, mud, fog, early morning drive, etc. I wasn't even sure the gun would shoot what with how damp everything was even though I had taken all the precautions I possibly could. It did shoot, and I killed a nice doe, which didn't go ten yards from where I shot her; credit to the sabot .44 Hornady HP/XTP bullet, and of course proper shot placement. Now I called my hunting partner on my portable radio, and told him to stay in his stand, as I walked back to the boat to get my welded aluminum wheel attachment (which transforms one half of my climbing stand into a two wheel deer hauling cart)and I would try to push something toward him.

My point is this: if I had been using a traditional flintlock muzzleloader with a lead ball bullet, instead of a modern, in-line, SS, synthetic stock rifle, would that be OK for you guys?
Where do YOU draw the line?
Do you wear modern clothes, shoes, boots, etc.?
Do you drive to your hunt, or use a motor boat, or an ATV?
Do you use a flashlight, compass, radio, GPS, cigarette lighter?
If so, is it still traditional hunting?

[Art Eatman]

Keano, you're edging into one of my pet peeves: Sierra Clubbers will drive out to Big Bend National Park, set up their ripstop nylon tents with the extruded aluminum frames, unroll their hollowfill bedrolls and their closed-cell foam pads, set up to cook their freeze-dried food on Primus stoves and "conserve energy" by use of Lite-Stiks.

And then sit around and cuss, moan and complain about those evil, giant corporations.

, Art

[BluRidgDav]

Attn: Gadget Hunters - How to follow tradition.

During the recently past Muzzleloader season, I was skillful enough to take a nice buck. Here's the way it happened; Woke up before dawn, just out of habit (early to bed, early to rise, blah-blah-blah). Walked out to the front room so as not to wake the wife and baby girl. Tripped over either Rufus or Bosco (my 2 dogs) couldn't tell which, it was dark. Added some logs to the woodstove, dressed by firelight. I sleep in a red wool/cotton longhandled unionsuit (complete with trapdoor). Added wool socks, wool shirt , heavy cotton farmer over-alls, plain leather work boots, a really heavy wool sweater, and wool hat. Stuck wool gloves in my pockets. Belted on my knife.

Reached up above the stone hearth and took down "Elizabeth" (don't ask & don't tell the wife!) from her pegs, along with my leather possibles bag. She's an 1861 Civil War rifled musket.

Stepped out onto the porch into the cold crisp air. A million-and-one stars shown down from above (the good Lord must smile on traditional hunters?). My eyes quickly adjusted to the darkness. Loaded "Beth" via my brass Civil War Peace flask, with real black powder and a 5-hundred-and-something grain Minnie-Ball, but didn't cap her yet. Started walking. About a quarter-mile beyond the end of the driveway, down our gravel lane, I turned right into the woods, as the sky started to turn gray in the East. Slowed down to my normal still-hunting pace. Fumbled around in my possibles bag for a musket-cap and pulled on those knit-wool gloves.

After about an hour of still-hunting down thru the holler and up toward the ridge, I heard, and then spotted, a big fork-horn sneakin' up the other side of the holler. It might'a been a small 6-point? (hard sayin' - not knowin', HA-HA), I don't carry binoculars. Sat down & raised my musket. But, even at only about 75 yards, the thick brush and the buck's movements prevented me from getting a good killing shot, so I held my fire, until he was out of sight and hearing. Darn! Maybe he heard or saw me first? I need to slow down even more and keep workin' on my still-huntin' technique!

After a couple of more hours? (hard sayin' - not knowin', HA-HA, I don't carry a time-piece), of silently moving thru the forest, listening to the birds and other critters, watching every flicking leaf for excrutiatingly long periods of time, I catch the faint sound of hoof-steps. I very slooooowly kneel down behind a big tree and raise my musket. Here he comes! A big, fat, spike! Not spike(S). Just one. One narley old spike on only one side! He's walkin', lookin' around & sniffin'. Step, look, sniff, step, sniff, look, sniff, step, stop, eat an acorn, sniff, look, sniff. Good thing I paid attention to the wind! When he steps behind a really big tree, I cock the hammer, simultaneously holding the trigger, in order to prevent the tell-tale "click". Of course, he stops behind that big tree, for a long, long, long time!!! (How do they always do that???) Finally he steps out from behind that big tree, but there's another bush covering his neck & chest area, and he's looking right at me from about 25 yards away. I shift my aim to his spine, about mid-way back. Front sight, squeeze, front sight, squeeze, front sight, KA-BOOM !!! He kinda slowly rolls over and kicks. Maybe it just seemed like slow motion? I'm pretty pumped!!! what with all the white smoke swirling around. I stand up (staying behind my big tree) and reload. By the time I'm loaded, he's stopped kicking. I approach, slow & ready, but he's dead. I de-cap & get out my knife. Now the work begins. But first, a brief prayer of thanx.

It takes until after noon to drag him back to the house. Man, I gotta work-out more! I hang him in the shed, then go inside to eat a really big lunch. The wife is happy for me, but still doesn't want me to pick up the baby with bloody hands! After lunch, back to the shed. I want to get the hide off before he really stiffins up.

Over the next 2 days, I butchered him, a quarter at a time, on my workbench and the kitchen countertop. I haven't had any real training, just followed the big muscle groups and used a hand-grinder for the sausage. Bosco & Rufus eat like kings on the scraps & bones! The hide was salted and given to a local merchant for tanning.

The End.

My point is this: nothing in the above story was out of the ordinary for either the 19th or the 21st Century. You don't have to go live in a cave or teepee. Everything I used, can be (could have been) found in a local hardware (general) store or mail order catalog. It's all just as functional as it was back in the good ole days. But, I did, intentionally, try to keep things simple, during my hunt and it's preparation. I did, intentionally, leave out all obviously high-tech gadgets. And I did accept the fact that I might have to pass-up some shots on game that could probably be made easily with a scoped, modern rifle.

[Art Eatman]

I believe that the fact that I can empathize with the entire spectrum of positions on this might indicate one thing: The argument misses the point of hunting.

I've always believed that what's important about the hunt is the hunt. Not the kill. The kill means the fun is over and the work begins. Stalking and finding is the fun part, that part requiring skill.

"One does not hunt in order to kill. One kills in order to have hunted."--Ortega y Gassett

Even the traditionalist user of a Kentucky-style rifle is fantastically more technologically advanced than his own thrice-great-grandfather.

Homo Sap is a tool-using animal. The tools have evolved from rocks and clubs through spears and atlatls and bows to the sequence of types of firearms. Seems to me you pick your own niche that suits you and avoid concern about the particular niche of others.

Bein' outdoors, smilin' back at the Lord and knowing you're doing something that a gazillion other people around the world can't do: Ain't that enough?

Art

[keano44]

BluRidgDav,

Yours was an excellent answer to my question. I am impressed with your story. I have nothing but respect and admiration for your devotion to your style of hunting, and your self dicipline.

But I still don't understand why you (not you personally; traditionalists in general) need your own season to practice your special way of hunting. Maybe its just wording. In LA, we have a muzzleloader season. Maybe in other states it is called primitive weapons season or traditional hunting season.
During muzzleloader season, or regular gun season, I see no reason why we can't hunt side by side, me in my own way, and you, yours.
Once during squirrel season, I was hunting with my Remington 870 pump 12 gauge. There was a guy hunting a few hundred yds. from me, maybe one or two ridges over, all dressed in buckskins, using a traditional squirrel rifle; muzzleloading, black powder, loonnggg gun. We both came out to the area where our boats were parked at the same time after the hunt. This guy had smoked me, as far as the number of squirrels he had compared to me. I have no problem with that. But like Art mentioned earlier, we can't have a seperate season for every different dicipline there is, when what it all boils down to is hunting. I have heard of people who have given up hunting with a high powered rifle in favor of blackpowder guns or even bow and arrows, just because they find it more enjoyable or more challenging. They practice their preferred method during the same seasons where other hunters use every modern (and legal) advantage available to them. Sometimes I use my Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 Magnum with open sights only, during gun season when I could be shooting a high powered rifle with a scope on it. I just find it to be more challenging for me. It really dosen't bother me what the next guy over is using.

[BluRidgDav]

Keano44,

I agree with you!

This thread has taken it's twists & turns, grown to 2 pages, and hooked up with another thread from over on the BP&CAS page. I hope that the overall theme of all of my posts is that:

I don't support all these special seasons anymore, either.

I'd much rather have one big happy hunting season, with all of us hunters out there enjoying ourselves with whatever type of weapon pleases us. Hope to see ya out there.

[Zorro]

The point of the special seasons is that you are hunting with a handicap weapon.

A bow is less effective than, a black powder firearm, that is less effective than, a modern shotgun or magnum pistol is less effective than, a modern centerfire rifle.

The idea is that the bows and muzzleloaders don't have to compete against modern hi-power rifles.


Sort of like the New Mexico BOW ONLY! Pronghorn Antelope season. Every year about 300 try it and 1-6 are successful. Why bother? Because some want to.

Try a bow during the general season and the sucess rate would be closer to 1 success every decade with a bow.

[ed mason]

SALT,


I have seen both sides to this argument.


I joined a bow club a few years ago that had a lease in a small county outside Nashville.It started out to be a bow only hunting
lease with just a few good folks that wanted to hunt privately with a bow.It was a good deal and the guys where nice so I
joined and hunted side by side with them with a bow.

A few years later everything was going good until a new member joined and wanted to open up the lease to firearms when the
gun season began.I reluctantly voted to ok this but soon we had every yahoo that could legally buy a gun and hunting lic join
and soon we got some real jerks in the crowd.This pretty muched ruined the club for me so I quit and went elsewhere.

As you can see from my previous post's I am a hunter that is both a purest and a "cheater".I love flintlocks and I love Inline
muzzloaders.My eyes are getting much worse as age comes along and its getting much harder to see the sights on my Virginia
rifle.I well understand that SALT and others like to pitt themselves against nature and make things a little bit more
challenging>ME TOO!!!But If you cant see the sights then its not a fair chase.I could just see myself in 10 more years if my
eyes start to go south and I get a deer in at about 10 yards with my buckskins on and not be able to shoot him because I cant
see my sights!@


I can see from my above experience why SALT and many others have a problem with Inline muzzleloaders but they are
missing the point.If you don't like them, DONT HUNT WITH THEM!Start a lease somewhere where you allow only LONG
Bows and Flintlocks if you want to, but don't go around bashing the guys who like to use Inlines

[Zorro]

http://primitivearcher.com/