September 13, 2017, 01:50 PM | #51 | |
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Your opinion is that anything less than a 5 shot group is no good and that people that tell you of a three shot group cherry picked it, your words! |
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September 13, 2017, 01:53 PM | #52 | |
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September 13, 2017, 01:59 PM | #53 | |
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September 13, 2017, 04:02 PM | #54 |
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Mr. Fischer,
Please re-read my post, as I believe you are misrepresenting what I stated. I said nothing about what constitutes "accurate enough", in fact I unwaveringly have stated over many years and thousands of posts that everyone's needs are different. Nor did I say that " people that tell you of a three shot group cherry-picked it". What I DID state is that a cherry-picked group (and I don't care it's 3, 5, or 10 shot) is not representative of a rifle's true performance, and it's clearly not. A rifle's true performance is what it shoots consistently, with premium factory ammo at minimum. The OP is looking for a RANGE rifle (benchrest, specifically) sub-moa, per her first post. Anyone, that knows anything about barrels, knows that long strings consistent with the requirements of target shooting requires a heavy contour barrel. A lightweight, sporter contour simply does not have the mass to absorb the heat without long waits between relatively few shots to avoid overheating. Most, if not all, of the rifles in her original post are HUNTING rifles, not range/target rifles. Apples and Oranges, sir. PDog/varmint hunters know this and compromise with a mid-weight barrel (hence the name "varmint contour"). There are completely different standards for evaluating suitability of rifles for range/target use as compared to hunting. Hunters care about cold bore, and one or two follow-ups (hence the three-shot group). A target shooter is going to be woefully disappointed if they buy a lightweight contour barrel only to find that it can't hold up to the high round count they were after. Forewarned is forearmed. Customers of mine that put eight pound barrels on their rifles aren't expecting to tote them into the mountains, nor are those with a lightweight contour expecting to use them for target shooting. Can they take it to the range, sling some impressive shooting (even at long-range), and call it a day? Absolutely. But if they expect to shoot long strings accurately (a range rifle), then they need to be aware of the limitations/compromise of such a rifle in an application for which it was not designed.
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September 13, 2017, 06:49 PM | #55 | |
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I think that the average person couldn't shoot a 1" group by other than an accident! Actually in my experience, people with a 1 1/2" rifle are thrilled! Don't buy an entry level factory rifle expecting custom rifle accuracy- you may be lucky and get it, maybe not... Some how on here we went from entry level and skipped over everything else till we got to custom! Not saying I disagree with that but I think most rifle's, custom and otherwise in the hands of the average shooter, he will not be distressed with a rifle that only does 1 1/2" and would like it even if it was a custom rifle. Mostly what I think we were talking about here were not competition shooter's but the average guy. I think that you would agree that a very accurate rifle in less than competent hands will shoot no better than an ordinary run of the mill rifle. I'm quite certain my rifle's these days shoot better than I do, probably always have. I'm also certain that most factory rifles can be made to shoot better with nothing more than tweeked bedding. I think we have both heard/read where a good trigger can make you a better shot, I'd think we'd both disagree with that. It you can't control a trigger you can have the best trigger in the world and it won't make much difference. The entry level rifle's today seem amazing to me and for the most part probably shoot better than any of us. Think about the match rifle, super small group's depending on who's touching off the shot. In every rifle, entry level or custom, the human error will surface. I think suggesting that factories are turning out rifle's most of which will be accurate enough.........! Well does a guy hunting deer need a .250" rifle? No, doesn't generally even need a 1" rifle! many people even like yourself will never know what the entry level rifle's can do because you won't try them in the first place. For the average guy and his hunting rifle, the entry level rifle's are more than good enough. I've got an entry level 700 ADL that was a gift. One of the absolutely worst shooting rifles I ever saw. lot of bedding work later I was shooting very well. Then that plastic stock changed out for a wood stock and bedded for that barrel action and it's a very accurate rifle. Will the best computation rifle shoot say .250" groups every time? I doubt that, the human error will get it.If it wasn't for human error we may well have already seen the rifle that can put all it's shot's in the same hole. And the average guy? Give him the same rifle and he still shoot's 1 1/2" groups! |
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September 14, 2017, 12:50 PM | #56 |
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Phew I agree with the last part.
I do think there is so much buzz about MOA these days shooters expect it. I also do not say the pencil barrels are in general a problem, just I have been less than impressed and barrels have gotten lighter since my Ruger of the early 80s. What I like about the Ruger was it shot dead center on the first shot and the other two orbited around it. The Savage pencil in 270 had a single by itself and the other two were close together. Could you live with that, yes, like it, no. For hunting all I ever did was shoot 3 shot groups. I didn't expect any more out of the gun but it game me an honest 3 shot group. Not one shot in one place and two 1.5 inches out by themselves. |
September 14, 2017, 08:43 PM | #57 |
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Three shot groups work well enough for sighting in, but are pretty meaningless for load-evaluation. For that matter, MOA-5-shot groups at 100 yards are absolutely meaningless in a rifle that is expected to perform well at 300 yard and beyond. That MOA 100 yard group may well be over 16" at 300 yards. Don't assume anything about it; you can't know until you try it. On the other hand, if you have great load for 300+ yards, you shouldn't fret if it looks less accurate than some other loads at 100 yards. I think 100 yards is a great distance to evaluate iron-sighted lever-action rifles and their ammo. But it's meaningless for a scoped, bolt-action rifle.
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September 14, 2017, 09:00 PM | #58 |
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From what I've heard, go for the Mossberg Patriot....I have one 5.56 I have yet to shoot but everyone I know with the Patriot raves about their accuracy...
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September 15, 2017, 07:37 AM | #59 |
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Interesting discussion and certainly one that raises some questions.
Just to clarify, yes I am looking for a range/target rifle. That I could hunt with it would be a bonus but hardly a requirement and I looked at the 243 because of the combination of low(er) recoil and the overall ballistics of the 6mm family of cartridges. I admit when I see people say they shot a 3-shot group that was .0000000181 inches at 100 yards.....ALL DAY, i sort of am dismissive. Statistics teaches us that sample size matters immensely in the confidence we have in any given study or set of results. And having a single 3-shot group as the benchmark accuracy for a target rifle strikes me as a rather low confidence metric which is another way of saying cherry picking. We have to have enough of a sample size to grasp the variability and deviation for the performance of the rifle. Imagine you put the rifle on a mechanical rest and shot it 10 times (assuming sufficient barrel cooling, etc), you'd have a 'group'. Try it 200 times and the variation of that group is going to really consolidate around a particular number. Except I doubt anyone wants to spend the money to buy or load 200 rounds just to establish that so we use samples that are representative and to me a 3-shot one alone doesn't do a good job of it. And if I follow this to its logical conclusion that's probably why a company like T/C can "guarantee" that the compass/venture line of budget rifles will shoot MOA for a 3-shot group. With enough ammo especially handloads and from a rest it is likely you can get a 1-1/2" MOA gun to occasionally shoot 1 MOA or less. Guarantee met... As for minute-of-deer accuracy, I don't think 1 MOA is needed for where I'd nominally be hunting if I were to use this rifle for that purpose given I'm in the East coast. If I were back out west then I'd weigh my rifle's proven accuracy, be it 1, 1/2", or 2 MOA, against the vital zone of deer/elk/etc and establish a max range based on that. re: Mossberg Patriot. thanks for the suggestion. I saw one sans optics for < $300 which is quite a deal and the reviews on accuracy are generally very good, plus they make an affordable wood (or maybe laminate?) stock version which is nice. I'm hesistant to go with them due to what i've read about some QC issues they have had. With one rifle already sitting in Savage's warehouse/gunsmith for a month now, I'm wary of getting another lemon. Probably impossible at this budget price point to not gamble on getting some problems, be it with the Remington 783, the Savage rifles, and the T/C which had recalls just this past year. Last edited by ARqueen15; September 15, 2017 at 07:46 AM. |
September 15, 2017, 08:45 AM | #60 |
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^^^
What was the issue with the Savage? Your statements regarding group sizes and "guarantees" is spot on and shows you have an excellent grasp of the arguments IMO. My advice is to look for a "compromise" contour that fits the target vs. hunting percentage of use. Nothing at all wrong with the .243, but consider there may be other choices that will suit your intended target use and provide longer throat/barrel life such as it's .308 parent case. Good luck.
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September 15, 2017, 10:08 AM | #61 | |
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September 15, 2017, 10:50 AM | #62 |
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ARQuees write up is very deep grasp of the whole situation.
Again that's why I recommend the Savage 12FV, but in 6.5, its not a barrel burner cartridge, just the opposite. AT $318 I think that is a bargain as it has the more flexible Varmint Contour barrel. The 6.5 is a soft shooter. At that price you could get a Gun Smith to shorten it and crown it! Its still the Top Bolt Release which are preferred. Dicks also has a store only Savage with a shorter but heavier than normal barrel that would make a good target/field gun. |
September 15, 2017, 12:22 PM | #63 |
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If you spend a little more, the T/C Venture is a really nice rifle that doesn't break the bank. Maybe not quite 'budget' though. I have one in .270 and think I'll get another one other .243 or 6.5CM (if they'll make it, I'm expecting they will) .... possibly .308.
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597 VTR, because there's so many cans and so little time! Last edited by pgdion; September 15, 2017 at 12:28 PM. |
September 15, 2017, 12:37 PM | #64 |
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BTW - I jumped on the 6.5 Creedmoor bandwagon .... and I love it. A very awesome round. I have it in a BA10 Stealth which is also awesome. I want a lighter rifle for so.e competitions though.
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September 15, 2017, 12:47 PM | #65 | |
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The other seemingly odd thing that I have noticed is that with some loads, bullet stability may actually improve with increasing range. Thus, the most promising 100 yard loads may be quite undone at 300 yards, being beaten by another recipe that didn't look so promising at 100 yards. Most rifles probably aren't this way, but some certainly are. It always amazes me that some folks will shoot their targets at 100 yards, then figure they are good to go hunting at longer ranges, taking their accuracy and trajectory on blind faith. |
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September 15, 2017, 03:15 PM | #66 | |
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September 15, 2017, 11:53 PM | #67 |
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Well, Stagpanther, first of all, thank your lucky stars that none of your rifles have exhibited this phenomena. Perhaps your rifle(s) have free-floated barrels? But the bullets are reasonably perfect. The actual rifle, (Yes, this is a real rifle), tends to shoot five shot groups of just about any ammo into 1-1/2" at 100 yards, rarely, if ever, better than 1-1/4". I don't think I have ever shot a five shot group with it that was minute-of-angle or less. Yet one of the loads that is merely 1-1/2" at 100 yards, is consistently putting 5 rounds into 2-1/2" and less at 300 yards. Some of the most promising 100 yard loads are extremely disappointing at 300 yards, while several aren't nearly that bad but not great either. It's just finicky about what it likes. It isn't free-floated; I could have it done, but it shoots so well with what it likes that I think I will leave it as it is. I consider it a great rifle; sub-MOA at 300 yards works for me. It's my best rifle. It could be any caliber and any brand of rifle. They all have their quirks and preferences.
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September 16, 2017, 01:04 AM | #68 |
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I was just wondering how a 5 shot group that is MOA at 100 yds "has absolutely nothing to do" with inherent accuracy of a weapon! I'm not a long distance shooter--but I have hand-loaded ammo for cartridges like 300 win mag and have observed that the higher-power/velocity combinations do need more distance than 100 yds to indicate the optimal load. I'm also assuming the statement referred to an inherent relationship between distance of target as a function of a projectile's accuracy--assuming the weapon is in good working order.
Not trying to get into a pissing match--I was genuinely curious how that much deviation could happen in an otherwise normally-functioning weapon. I'm no expert--most of what little I know is from screwing things up and then figuring out how to fix them. lol
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September 16, 2017, 03:03 AM | #69 | |
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Yeah, of course, I felt you were genuine all along. I only meant that if any given rifle and ammo shoots excellent at 100 yards, that we shouldn't take for granted that the same combination can be counted on to deliver the same excellence way out there without having been proven to do so. I'm not sure what you meant by this:
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September 16, 2017, 09:04 AM | #70 |
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Over my half century of shooting, I have not yet had a rifle that shot good groups at 100 yards that didn't do well at least out to 300 yards. That said, if I had loaded up bullets that were only marginally stable at 100, results at 300 or more might be dismal. Just load or buy ammo suitable for the twist rate, which probably applies to the 223 more than any other caliber.
To the OP's original question: if I wanted a good shooter at best price, I'd probably buy a RAR, but if I was willing to pay a bit more, I'd most certainly buy a Tikka. |
September 16, 2017, 12:59 PM | #71 |
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Are you willing to buy a second hand rifle? If so, look at the Stevens 200. It will fit the bill.
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September 19, 2017, 12:03 PM | #72 | |
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All thins stuff about working up loads in five shot groups is bull, nothing less. Then again once the load is developed, it should be tested at longer range. No question about that. Just that I don't care to waste bullet's shooting more than three shot's when the load with three shot's doesn't do it for me! |
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September 20, 2017, 09:31 PM | #73 |
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What about the Bergara HMR?
It's got a 8-900$ street price, lighter than the Ruger Precision Rifle and it can be used for hunting as well. Have seen nothing but good info on all of the Bergara rifle line. Don't own one, but will before the year is out. Only one article is available on all of the FLF articles on this site. Maybe in the ignorance...there really is bliss?
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September 21, 2017, 08:01 AM | #74 |
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A brief interruption from our regularly scheduled programming...
I ordered the rifle and should receive it tomorrow. In addition I picked up 4 different kinds of ammo for it across a variety of bullet weights and companies. Come saturday I'll take it out to the range, sight it in, and see what we can do. I'm rather curious to see what happens and I'll post the results here. Now please carry on
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September 21, 2017, 08:29 AM | #75 |
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If your results are good there will be a tirade on why you just got lucky and no one should expect that type of result from a budget rifle. Or your testing protocol will be flawed. Or the definition of MOA (which is, from my understanding, a long standing technical definition) will be questioned. The usefulness of MOA will be questioned. Anything to prevent a consideration that rifle manufactures may have found a cost-efficient way to create budget price point rifles that might even be considered in the same breath to have anywhere near the performance of very expensive custom and semi-custom rifles.
Or it will not shoot well and we will hear "I told you so" and people will point out you get what you pay for and ignore the fact that not all expensive rifles shoot well and some need to have loads built for them and tuned. Its kind of like with pistols. If you buy an expensive pistol and it has several failures in the first 100 rounds you are told you need to break it in for at least 500 rounds. If you buy a cheap pistol you got what you paid for and what did you expect. |
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