45 Colt versus 44 Magnum

[rclark]

What exactly are the stronger .45 Colt guns? Is the Blackhawk up on the list? I'm wanting to get a long barreled .45 Colt in a year or so.

Yes, the BH, SBH Hunter, RedHawk, Super RedHawk, Freedom Arms 83.... Probably a few others. Note there is a .45 Colt (medium frame) Ruger flattop around (same as the New Vaquero) that is NOT for Ruger Only Loads. Colt SAA, USFA, Uberti, and all the rest of the SAA clones are NOT, repeat are NOT capable of handling Ruger Only Loads.

[RalphS]

Concerning the smaller rim on 45LC cartridges, Redhawks have a very large extractor star on the 45LC models which wraps around more than 50% of the cartridge. I've never had a problem extracting cartridges with mine.

I have both a 44M and 45LC Redhawk. I handload for both of them and have done a lot of testing over a chronograph with max loads of H110. They are very close in power factor (I like to use power factor instead of muzzle energy for comparisons). My 44M comes out ahead but it also has a 5.5 in barrel instead of a 4 in barrel. If I subtract 100 fps for the extra 1.5 inches of barrel, the results are very close. So, to me, they are basically the same.

My practice loads for the range are:

21 grains of 2400 under a 250 gr. RNFP = 1250 fps out of a 4 inch 45LC Redhawk.

20 grains of 2400 under a 240 gr. RNFP = 1279 fps out of a 5.5 inch 44M Redhawk.

[BGutzman]

I'm wondering which barrel length judge your friend was using. I wonder what the velocity of the STs were.

Sorry it took so long to answer..

I believe his barrel is 3 inches... The Winchester Silvertips were like 14 dollars a box.. I cant tell you anything more specific other than they seriously sucked..

[cochise]

I recall years ago, deer hunting in Wyoming, I needed some bullets. I was able to buy .44 mag's off the shelf. The 45 Colt were all "standard" low power loads.

A couple of conculsions can be made........................

Better factory loads are easier to find for a .44 magnum, if that matters.

And if you reload, they are so close in performance, I wouldn't sell one to buy the other calibar.

[stellite]

Perhaps we are working with a different understanding of the word "power".

'Bolt head thrust' is the physical mechanism that allows the 45 Colt to offer less perceived recoil.

Having done a bit of experimenting in both chamberings, with the 45 Colt getting bullets up to 395g, I maintain that from identical platforms the equally-loaded 45 Colt will perform more terminal work.

The word power means energy, momentum, taylor KO, etc. Typically kinetic energy is a measure of power, but is obviously not a good measure of game killing power. In factory loadings the 44 magnum beats the 45lc by a good margin and is available anywhere. In reloading they are about the same and the edge in "energy" still goes to the 44 mag. The difference is minute and not worth mentioning if you reload. Sometimes to heavy isn't always the best.

I maintain that the 45lc and the 44 mag are basically equal when reloading and the 44 mag is far superior with factory ammo. Find a 45lc load that even comes close to this: buffalo bore 44 Magnum - 340 gr. L.F.N. - G.C. (1,478 fps/M.E. 1,649 ft. lbs.)The next closest load is garrets 330 grain load at 1435 ft-lbs. if you use TKO formula I doubt you will find anything higher until you get to 454 casull.

In the end if you reload you should be happy with either, but if you don't, go with the 44 mag.

[Wyoredman]

Budda posted:

Simple answer, Here in wyoming, you can hunt big game with the .44 mag.

you CAN NOT with the .45 colt.

Any balistics chart show ft lbs of energy at given yards, and the .44 mag wins that battle.
__________________

You, sir, are wrong. Here is the Wyoming statute concerning legal handgun calibers for hunting.

http://gf.state.wy.us/web2011/Depart...tions_Ch32.pdf

W.S. §23-1-302 and W.S. §23-3-111 WGF Commission Regulations Chapter 32, Section 4 (b)
(b) In addition, the Commission authorizes any other cartridge fired from a firearm that has a barrel bore diameter of at least thirty-five hundredths (35/100) of an inch and the cartridge generally delivers at least five hundred (500) ft-pounds of impact at one hundred (100) yards and cartridges used are loaded with a soft, or expanding point bullet.

As you see, the .45 Colt is very much legal in the State of Wyoming. A 300 grain .45 calliber bullet fired with a muzzel velocity of 1000fps at Wyomings elevation will produce somewhere in the area of 550+ ft/lbs of energy at 100 yards.

[stellite]

here is a good article that I am sure has been posted before and a 44 mag hunt using different bullets. Notice the authority with which the garrett 310 gr did it's work:

http://www.handgunhunt.com/readArticle.php?letter_id=36

[Slamfire]

I have read that 40 grains of black powder in a balloon head case will push a 255 gr LSWC to 1000 fps in a Colt SAA. That is pretty good and makes one of these both light and powerful.



I like the 45 LC it is an accurate and powerful round. I have shot tens of thousands of rounds of 45 LC because a 255 L bullet at 850 to 900 fps is not so powerful that I end up shell shocked after 50 rounds.

Sure, in Redhawk’s and in Freedom Arms pistols you can stoke a 45 LC to levels that way out perform a 44 Magnum in this pistol:



Big whoop. I don’t enjoy shooting full power 44 Magnums and I don’t shoot the bigger hand cannons. And they all weigh a ton. You want big, try a 500 S&W or a 45/70 revolver. Those things weigh as much as rifles, which incidentally, your hit probability is much better with a rifle than a handgun.

I enjoy the 45 LC for what is was supposed to be, something you could carry on your hip and yet still have a potent manstopper.

[Creek Henry]

Yeah, if you push 45LC to 200% of its max PSI you can match 44mags out of the box ammo. But, if you push 44mag rounds to 90k psi, it will be more powerful than your 45LC loads. Get my point?

[Sarge]

The 45 Colt has grown up, in step with the guns available to handle it. I've hot-rodded both cartridges and have killed game with both of them. I can't tell a nickel's worth of difference on game to 300 pounds, which incidentally, the standard-pressure .45 Colt will handle just fine by the simple substitution of a SWC for its original RNFP bullet.

I've got no truck with the .44 Magnum and it may well shade the .45 Colt in paper energy, which I consider a poor yardstick for game-killing effect.

[stellite]

if you reload, keep in mind that std 45lc brass was not designed for mag pressures. You need to buy Starline brass(and whoever else makes mag safe brass) for mag pressures in the 45lc. Std old brass in 45lc is 14k cup, which is the std 45lc pressure. Now people hot rod the 45lc to double that.

Sarge, the 44 mag has proven itself against the biggest game in Africa and this continent. It's safe to say that it's not just on paper.

As a final note, what would you rather do, take a cartridge designed for 14kcup(45lc) and double it to get magnum velocities or take a cartridge designed for 43kcup(44mag) and run it at it's designed pressures? All 44 mag brass is fine at mag pressures.

[rclark]

Sarge, the 44 mag has proven itself against the biggest game in Africa and this continent. It's safe to say that it's not just on paper.

And so has the .45 Colt.

You would have to have some real 'old' cases that aren't up to 30,000psi pressures. The old balloon heads come to mind. The statement that .45 Colt cases not up to magnum pressures is an old wive's tale.

[hornetguy]

if you reload, keep in mind that std 45lc brass was not designed for mag pressures.

Really?? Where did you get that little tid-bit? Brass cases are brass cases. Perhaps you've read too many of the stories of the old balloon head .45 cases, but as far as I know, modern brass for the .45 Colt is fully capable of handling as much pressure as any other pistol caliber case.
the pressure limiting factor in all "standard" loadings for the .45 Colt are the guns that the cartridges might be fired in themselves, not the brass. I've loaded Winchester, Remington, and Starline brass in the .45 Colt with the same loads, (warmish.. 350gr bullets around 1200 fps, if memory serves) in all three brands, with NO failures... NO early split necks... NO case head separations..

[rightside]

The Winchester Slivertips performed poorly in butchering Hogs.. very poorly..

We just used a 22lr to the base of the skull and found a couple of sharp knifes were far superior to any bullet for butchering.

I'm sorry for that right there, Lord! Please be with the starvin' pygmies in Africa!

[stellite]

RCLARK:
And so has the .45 Colt.

and no one indicated it didn't? did they? so why your response? my response was to someone who stated the 44 magnums numbers were paper only. The 44 mag has indeed more than proven what it can do, in spite of what someone else indicated. maybe you should have responded to them and inserted 44 magnum in your line.

So what is the hottest load made for the 45 lc from reloading manuals? using a 320+ grain hc, does anyone know?

oh and quoted from chuck hawks:

Have you ever had a revolver case fail? I have, a .45 Long Colt case in fact. (Not in my gun or with my loads, though!) It was in a friend's gun with supposedly normal pressure handloads using 255 grain cast lead bullets. All I know is that he handed me his new gun to shoot a cylinder load of cartridges, and the 2nd cartridge I fired split from the mouth all the way down to the rim. The recoil from that shot felt like a high pressure load. At first I thought the gun had blown up. It made a heck of a bang, and sprayed my shooting hand with hot powder and bits of brass. But there was no lasting harm done to the gun or me. Its cylinder was not bulged or damaged in any way. If I remember correctly, it was an Italian-made Peacemaker replica, which did sour me on replicas, probably unfairly. I stick to Colt or Ruger revolvers for my personal use.

John Linebaugh is a gunsmith who is one of the best known proponents of very high pressure .45 Colt loads, and his principal business is modifying Ruger Blackhawk revolvers for use with such loads (and also re-manufacturing them for his line of proprietary revolver cartridges). I read an article by Mr. Linebaugh in which he claimed that Federal makes the best .45 Colt brass. He felt that Winchester was the second best brand, and that Remington brass was inferior to both.

I disagree with most of Mr. Linebaugh's assertions about very high pressure .45 Colt loads and the strength of the .45 Colt case in general, but I do agree with him about the superiority of Federal .45 Colt brass. Federal is the only brand of .45 Colt case that I currently reload. I gave up on Winchester brass because the boxes I tried were so brittle that they started developing case mouth cracks (from roll crimping) after 2-3 reloads. These cases were used with standard pressure reloads only. As a result I threw away all of my Winchester .45 Colt brass. I cannot comment on Remington .45 Colt brass, as by happenstance I have never used enough of it to form an opinion.

In my experience, Winchester magnum brass will typically go 6 to 8 reloads (using the same type of roll crimp) before developing the small case mouth cracks I saw with their .45 brass after 2 reloads. Even Federal .45 Colt brass lasts only about half as long as magnum brass. Again, these case mouth splits come from the necessity to roll crimp revolver loads and not from excessive pressure or a defective cylinder. But they do not speak well for the durability of .45 Colt brass compared to magnum brass.

My approximately 10 years of experience reloading the .45 Colt and 35 years of experience reloading the .357 and .44 Magnum cartridges (in both Colt and Ruger revolvers) leaves me with the definite impression that .45 Colt brass is indeed weaker than magnum brass. It should be since the .44 Magnum operates at about 2.5 times the maximum SAAMI pressure of the .45 Colt.

It is a tribute to the quality of modern .45 Colt brass that it has proven safe (in Blackhawk and Contender guns only) with maximum pressures about 57% greater than the SAAMI limit. But as for asking it to contain pressure far beyond that, NO THANKS! Perhaps it can be done, but to me it seems analogous to driving a sports car at 150 miles per hour on bald tires. You could probably get away with that, too, but is it wise?

[WV_gunner]

Ive been doing some serious thinking, many of these big caliber guns are capable of some pretty stout recoil. For instance, the .500 S&W and the .45-70 Government guns. I'd be surprised if the guns could even handle magnum loads their rifle versions could. So, why have them? My thinking is the .44 Remington or .45 Colt are probably the stoutest calibers one can shoot that are full magnum. And the best priced guns that can handle those hot loads are Rugers. Unless my memory is off, the .44 Remington isn't available in the regular Blackhawk. So, if you want a normal sized gun, the .45 Colt is the best option in my opinion. And who really needs the biggest, baddest caliber? Time to grow up and quit trying to show off.

[rclark]

So what is the hottest load made for the 45 lc from reloading manuals? using a 320+ grain hc, does anyone know?

Don't know about 45lc, but I did run across the following article for heavy .45 Colt loads and has been printed for my home 'manual' : Heavy Loads .45 Colt And Ross in his article also mentions heavier bullets. Linebaugh in his article also mentions 310-320g bullets but I assume you already read and digested them as they were mentioned on page 1.

[Sarge]

and no one indicated it didn't? did they? so why your response? my response was to someone who stated the 44 magnums numbers were paper only. The 44 mag has indeed more than proven what it can do, in spite of what someone else indicated. maybe you should have responded to them and inserted 44 magnum in your line.

What I said was "I've got no truck with the .44 Magnum and it may well shade the .45 Colt in paper energy, which I consider a poor yardstick for game-killing effect." I am basing that on shooting game with both of them, which entitles me to an opinion if nothing else.

So what is the hottest load made for the 45 lc from reloading manuals? using a 320+ grain hc, does anyone know?

Again... it literally depends on the gun. Purpose-built, five-shot .45 Colts crowd hard on the heels of the .454 Casull. They have their own specific load data, which would be inviting disaster if used with a lesser handgun. That said, Lee Martin covers the five-shooters here pretty well.

Geez people... lighten up.

[hornetguy]

leaves me with the definite impression that .45 Colt brass is indeed weaker than magnum brass.

While I respect his opinion, it is just that.. an opinion. And it is worth about what MY opinion is worth. Perhaps more since he is a "gun writer" of sorts.. I would give more credence to writers such as Ross Seyfried, who has probably done more heavy load work with the .45 Colt than anyone.

I would like to hear from the manufacturers of brass cases to see what they say about it. If you could get them to speak to the pressure capability of the brass itself, without getting bogged down with worrying about the guns they would be fired in, I would be interested to hear that.

[Budda]

Wyoredman said:

As you see, the .45 Colt is very much legal in the State of Wyoming. A 300 grain .45 calliber bullet fired with a muzzel velocity of 1000fps at Wyomings elevation will produce somewhere in the area of 550+ ft/lbs of energy at 100 yards.

Standard pressure/off the shelf .45 colt YOU CAN NOT HUNT WITH. was my point.

Today's standard factory loads develop around 400 ft·lbf (540 J) of muzzle energy at about 860 ft/s (260 m/s), making it roughly equivalent to modern .45 ACP loads. There are Cowboy Action Shooting loads which develop muzzle velocities of around 750 ft/s (230 m/s).

Not even close....... pushing to 200% pressure is no longer .45 Colt, you are into .454 area. The OP asked which has more power. and Apples to Apples the .44 wins every time.

[stellite]

While I respect his opinion, it is just that.. an opinion. And it is worth about what MY opinion is worth. Perhaps more since he is a "gun writer" of sorts.. I would give more credence to writers such as Ross Seyfried, who has probably done more heavy load work with the .45 Colt than anyone.

I would like to hear from the manufacturers of brass cases to see what they say about it. If you could get them to speak to the pressure capability of the brass itself, without getting bogged down with worrying about the guns they would be fired in, I would be interested to hear that.

As for brass strength, I don't disagree with you, it's just what I have read and what others that handload to high pressures have told me about case failures.

but we are so far off topic here, lol.

[stellite]

SARGE:
So what is the hottest load made for the 45 lc from reloading manuals? using a 320+ grain hc, does anyone know?

Again... it literally depends on the gun. Purpose-built, five-shot .45 Colts crowd hard on the heels of the .454 Casull. They have their own specific load data, which would be inviting disaster if used with a lesser handgun. That said, Lee Martin covers the five-shooters here [singleactions.com] pretty well.

Geez people... lighten up.

SARGE, thanks for that link, those are some very serious 50ksi loads for the 45 long colt. And this proves that, handloaded, the 45lc is fully the equal of the 44 mag.

[fourdogs]

Sometimes numbers can be misleading. For instance I shot a few Buffalo Bore 340gr +P+ 1425fps/1533 ft.lbs from my 4 3/4" FA at a large stainless steel plate that was maybe 3/16 thick from about 10 yards. Those are some serious rounds. When one of those lit off I got moved back about a step. They put a serious dent in that plate. Nothing remained but splatter.

Next up was my 7 1/2" FA 454 with a Colt cylinder. It was ported ( later had the barrel cut down to 5 1/2" ) so I figured I was losing some velocity which made it a fairly even match with my 44 barrel. I made up some 360gr wheel weight boolits with 16 grains of 4227 which most of you know is a pretty tame load. The gun hardly moved because of the ports, but the dents in the plate were huge, much deeper and wider than the 44.

I'm guessing the BB was moving so fast it disintrigrated which it did. The 360's were moving maybe 1100 ( just a guess ) but they had more authority and actually blew the plate off the stand whereas the BB didn't move the plate at all. Wish I still had that plate. It would be instructive to post a pic.

This wasn't very scientific but it was enough to finally give the nod to the 454 and I sold the 44.

[black mamba]

Purpose built 5-shot custom revolvers made to fire 45 Colt loads at 50k psi are not a fair comparison to factory 44 magnums. If you took that same 5-shot 45 Colt, but chambered it for the smaller 44, you could safely shoot it at 60k psi because it would have more steel left in the chambers and forcing cones. At any given level of strength, the SAME revolver in 44 mag can handle about 10k psi more pressure than a 45 Colt because they have more steel left in the critical areas.

The highest velocity 45 Colt load that I could find for Ruger/FA/T-C rated weapons using 325 gr cast bullets is 1266 fps from a 7-1/2" barrel.

The highest velocity 44 magnum load that I could find for factory built revolvers using 325 gr cast bullets is 1368 fps from a 7-1/2" barrel.

Comparing apples to apples, if you will, the 44 magnum is slightly more powerful. Note that this is even comparing bullets of the same weight, not just the same sectional density, which might even be more fair. A .430 bullet of 294 gr would have the same SD as a 325 gr .452 bullet, and could be fired ANOTHER 100 fps faster at the same pressure.

[Flyboy_451]

Maybe it's because I thoroughly enjoy big bore revolvers, and these two cartridges in particular. Both are fine performers, and offer a lot of flexibility for a wide range of uses.

It seems that everyone has their own ideas as to how these two should be compared, so for what it is worth, here is my take.

A few posts have touched on some of what I will cover, but have also failed to address the subject in full. First, what to compare? Factory loads only? Handloads for Rugers and similar? Five shot guns, or only six shooters? IMHO, if what we really want to compare is only the cartridges themselves, the only fair way to do that is to assume that each gun is capable of safely handling the maximum pressure that the cartridge case can safely handle. If you do otherwise, all you are really doing is comparing the strength of the guns, not the performance envelope of the two cartridges.

If this is the comparison to be made, I think you would be hard pressed to show that the .44 has any advantage at all. The .45 enjoys more case capacity, and a bullet with a larger surface area for pressure to work with. This is important because an increase in pressure does not give a linear increase in velocity. In other words, increasing pressure by "X" amount, will not always yield a velocity increase of "Y". However, by increasing the area on which pressure acts, you always get a predictable and linear increase in work capacity, or force. Pressure x area= total force. Exert more force, and you get more work done. No exceptions. Thus, the .45 can produce more gas volume (larger case capacity) to drive the bullet down the bore, and that gas is pushing on a surface area that is roughly 10 1/2% more than the .44. I don't see any way that the .44 can overcome this advantage except by exceeding the pressure of the .45 by at least 10%.

So, which case is stronger? That's a good question, that so far, I have not found an answer to. Although, another poster did provide a link to information on .45 Colt 5 shot loads that exceed 50,000psi. I have cut open several cases, both .44 and .45, and taken careful measurements of all dimensions that I could. This was done using and optical comparator, and what I found was that I could not find any significant difference in most brands of brass. I have the data here somewhere, but not sure where just now. I will post it if I can come up with it in my mess of ancient notes and data. This leads me to believe that the cases themselves are capable of containing similar amounts of pressure.

John Linebaugh uses a load generating 59,000psi (verified in a Hornady test barrel)for proof testing. This is for his five shot guns, and is certainly beyond what would be safe in any six shooter of either caliber. Suffice it to say, that either cartridge will probably handle more pressure than any sane reloader is willing to attempt. Can you load the .44 to 10% more pressure than the .45 case will handle? Maybe, but I'm not willing to find out.

Now, for those that want to compare the two cartridges in the same gun, say a Ruger Blackhawk; John Linebaugh has written an excellent article in which he has done exactly that. It can be found here http://www.customsixguns.com/writing...ht_bullets.htm

here is a quote from the above article

Whatever the .44 Magnum will do, the .45 Colt will do with roughly 1/2 the barrel length, pressures being nearly identical. From the limited pressure testing we have done, we have found that whatever the .44 Magnum will do, the .45 Colt will duplicate with about 5,000 psi less pressure. This is with standard bullet weights. As the slugs get heavier the gap widens.

If you choose to read the article, you will find that this conclusion was reached after testing guns in both calibers to the point of structural failure, and then assembling hand loads that maintained a 100% safety margin for the respective failure pressure. In other words, they were both loaded to 50% of the pressure that resulted in the firearms failure to contain the pressure. The .45 won out. Could you have increased the pressure in one over the other? Sure, but then you have decreased the safety margin for one, but not the other, and made it a skewed comparison.

Having said all that, I still don't load my .45s to this level of performance. Neither do I load my .44s to their full potential either. When I need more performance, I step up to a larger caliber, with a heavier bullet, that is loaded short of it's full potential as well. I have found this to be easier on the shooter, and just as deadly on the game pursued. .357 not enough? Reach for a moderately loaded .44. Still not enough? grab the .45. Need more still? Break out the .475. More yet? REALLY?! What the hell are you hunting?

I'm glad that I don't have to choose only one caliber, but if I did, I would b hard pressed to make the choice between the .45 and the .475. The .44, while a fine cartridge, just doesn't have the flexibility of the larger calibers. Given the choice between a .44 and a .45, I'll take the .45. But, I wouldn't throw stones at the .44 either!

JW