Confidence in your Carry Piece

Gary L. Griffiths · April 12, 2011, 09:20 PM

I have been looking for a long time for a carry piece I have confidence in. I upgraded my Kel-Tec P-32 to a Ruger LCP, but still consider the .380 ACP marginal for defense, and the trigger-pulls on both weapons detracted seriously from my ability to shoot them accurately. Oh, I can keep all shots within about a 4" circle at 7 yds, but that doesn't give me confidence in taking head shots at longer ranges, in the unlikely event that I'm required to.

Then, I got a Kel-Tec PF-9 that is almost as handy to carry as the LCP. Still, 9mm is not as powerful as I would like, and the trigger-pull on it is almost as bad as the LCP.

Yesterday, after finally having adjusted the rear sight (was shooting left) and mounting an Armalaser on it, I put 100 rds through my new Walther PPS. Although I'm not a big fan of the Glock-type trigger-pull, it's orders of magnitude better than the long DAO triggers on my other weapons. After zeroing the laser, I put two magazines into one ragged quarter-sized hole in the bottom half of the silver dollar-sized black on the sight-in target, with one flyer less than 1/2" out to the lower left, at 7 yds. Using the laser, I hit the head-sized target every time at 25 yds. I finished up the 100-rd box on some discarded "dirty bird" targets at 7 yds by aiming for the numbers in the scoring rings and shooting them out. Obliterated the numbers about half the time, shot less than 1" from them every time. The gun functioned flawlessly.

It just melts into my side in an IWB holster, even under a compression-type T-shirt (albeit not a tight one), and the .40 S&W stoked with Federal 165-gr HSTs are second only to premium 230-gr .45 JHPs in stopping power.

I still love my Taurus PT-145 Millennium Pro for winter or formal wear under a jacket or suit coat, and will carry my LCP as my "always" gun, but for routine carry under the lightest of clothing, my PPS will be my go-to gun for the foreseeable future!

James K · April 12, 2011, 10:13 PM

If you don't have total confidence in your carry gun, you might as well leave it at home. Your morale won't be helped if you have to wonder if your gun will work or if you can bring yourself to use it.

Jim

lawnboy · April 12, 2011, 11:57 PM

I interpret confidence somewhat more liberally than you do. What do I need to do with the gun? I need to be able to draw it and shoot it accurately and quickly. I need to be able to put follow up shots where I want them to go. I need to be able to clear it quickly if it has a stoppage.

What is a quick enough draw? Who knows. I know I can do it faster now than I could 3 months ago. As long as I don't go backwards I'm cool. But I'm not trying out for a role in the remake of "The Quick and The Dead". My gun would look funny in a Western.

What is accurate? I was happy and confident when I could start from the holster and put 3 shots in a target close enough to the bull to cover all 3 shots and the bull with my hand at 7 and 10 yards. How fast was I doing this? I have no idea because I didn't time it but I do it as fast as I can and I keep doing it. Sometimes I throw a flyer. But not too often.

I don't have stoppages often because I have a reliable carry gun and I always shoot it with proven ammo. I do the stoppage drill without the stoppage mostly. I have a plan. Don't have to use it much.

I've never thought much about head shots. My plan is center mass. Plans often have to go out the window though, so I could see the need for a headshot someday. I can cover a head with my hand so I guess I'm relying on practicing basics to see me through. But if I need to make a sure headshot at 20yds with a handgun I'm going to start looking around for the SEAL's or the HRT

If you need to shoot like an HRT member to feel confident I hope you get there. That's not sarcasm, I mean it. I feel confident way short of that. I'd like to get better and I'll keep working on it though

kraigwy · April 13, 2011, 12:16 AM

You want confidence in your carry piece, PRACTICE with it, practice with it often, several times a week at differant ranges, right hand, left hand, one handed.

Practice.

Mosin44az · April 13, 2011, 12:49 AM

Interesting info about the laser. Was thinking about adding one to my LCP. Would help with felt recoil, too.

Sleuth · April 13, 2011, 04:48 PM

Competence builds confidence.
Confidence builds Competence.

So, choose your caliber, then your gun. Then get training, and then practice. When it's YOUR DAY, you will revert to your level of training.

Yung.gunr · April 13, 2011, 05:42 PM

What are you thinking you will be confronted with where a .380 is not enough? I find it interesting that people have this mindset that they need something larger for an average day about town. Like others have said practice practice and practice some more. You will become used to the trigger pull after a bit to where it becomes instinct and you won't notice it. Keep on mind we are not talking about a match so much as PD.

SauerGrapes · April 13, 2011, 06:00 PM

I'm comfortable with my carry gun. It's the smallest gun I feel comfortable and confident shooting.

BigJimP · April 13, 2011, 06:43 PM

I'm not sure I understand your point / or if there was a question...

Personally, my confidence comes in practice and how well the gun runs day in and day out ...so for me, its a well tuned 5" 1911 in .45 acp ...

I practice with it almost weekly ...and run at least a box a week thru it. I also run 20 or 30 boxes a month thru its sister gun in 9mm ...just because I like to shoot a 9mm in a 1911 ...and its good practice.../ I have the utmost confidence in my carry gun / or I wouldn't carry it !

smince · April 13, 2011, 07:04 PM

Quote:

I find it interesting that people have this mindset that they need something larger for an average day about town. Like others have said practice practice and practice some more.

I carry larger (Glock 19 or 26). In reality, I don't know what I may face in a day. And in reality, neither do you. If we play the odds, we could not carry at all and be 'safe'.

And I practice with them weekly, if not more often.

ltc444 · April 13, 2011, 09:27 PM

To get confidence in your carry weapon requires PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE .......PRACTICE.

You should be able to hold in the 10 ring without the use of sites from 15 yds out. Once you achieve that ability then you have trained your muscles and yourself to use your pistol.

Tactical Jackalope · April 13, 2011, 11:21 PM

+1 with the above. I would never carry a weapon or even keep one for home defense unless I've fired a thousand or so rounds through it first. Extremely picky with my carry guns and home defense guns. Which in my world, they all play a part.

rigby06 · April 14, 2011, 07:31 AM

I am not going to carry a weapon unless I already have confidence in it. Which is my I most often carry a larger gun, rather than the small pocket ones, not that there is anything wrong with the pocket guns, most often they are too small for my hands, and I prefer to carry something that I can manipulate much easier, and dress around the weapon if necessary. The smallest I carry is either a 642 38 special or a Sig P232. But my main carry weapon is a Kimber 1911. I also rotate through all of my carry weapons.

Skadoosh · April 14, 2011, 07:43 AM

For me, a carry piece must be unquestionably reliable. Personally I never trust a gun enough to carry it as my CCW until I have put at least a few hundred consecutive rounds through it without a single malfunction. I have two Sigs, a Glock, a semi-custom Colt Combat Commander and two snubby revolvers to choose from. So far, only the S&W and Colt snubbies have made the "hundreds of rounds reliable" grade...

Japle · April 14, 2011, 07:52 AM

If you want to have confidence in your carry piece, you should compete with it.

Shooting X number of rounds at paper targets at the range doesn't tell you how you'll do under pressure, in a hurry, at different distances, etc.

Shoot some IDPA matches with exactly the same gun, ammo, holster, mag pouches and cover garment you'd wear to the movies.
Shoot some Steel Challenge matches without the cover garment.

If you don't have equipment problems, you can have confidence in your gun and rig. And you might learn something about how you shoot under pressure.

MrWesson · April 14, 2011, 07:58 AM

I love my M&P9c but it is a little big and Ive been thinking of going with a small single stack 9mm.

PF9 is at the top of the list currently but I want to try a kahr cw9 and a few others first.

I like the 10/10/10/10 drill.

Carry piece
10 shots/10yds/10 seconds/10in paper plate.

Pretty simple and not always easy with a carry piece. Try it next time you head out.

Boatme98 · April 14, 2011, 08:01 AM

Ability and reliability. Are you competent? Is your weapon dead on reliable? I practice constantly, about 200-300 rounds every other week, weather permitting. For carry, I use a Sig P239. In the 3 years it's been my carry weapon, I've only had 1 case of FTE, and it was my fault. I'd gotten complacent about checking every shell when loading mags and loaded an egged cartridge (W.W. White box crap). Thankfully it was just during practice, and will never happen again!

new_scopeshooter · April 14, 2011, 08:09 AM

Bullit placement is more important the size(to me) as I have stated befor I have got bad reviews for carrying a makarov(9x18) some say its underpowerd for seflf d. But I I can put two rounds in the same whole at 25 yards and I see guys that can't hit a 4 inch group ate 25 yards with a .45 I say which is better to carry. A gun u shoot well or one that makes u feel macho!! No matter what u carry make sure u practise so u can hit where u aim

Japle · April 14, 2011, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Bullit placement is more important the size(to me) as I have stated befor I have got bad reviews for carrying a makarov(9x18) some say its underpowerd for seflf d. But I I can put two rounds in the same whole at 25 yards and I see guys that can't hit a 4 inch group ate 25 yards with a .45 I say which is better to carry. A gun u shoot well or one that makes u feel macho!! No matter what u carry make sure u practise so u can hit where u aim

This is based on the totally invalid assumption that you'll be able to place your shots "where u aim" in a gunfight with all the shooters dodging and moving in unpredictable ways. Real world experience shows us that's not the case.

Of course, anyone who can't spell "bullet" and claims he can put two shots through the same "whole" at 25 yds with a Makarov .......

James K · April 14, 2011, 12:39 PM

Old saying: If the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Confidence in your weapon is part and parcel of confidence in yourself, not only to be able to use the weapon if you have to, but also the confidence to refrain from drawing it or using it until you have to. Too many folks who carry guns have the "hammer and nail" outlook. Since a gun is the only weapon most of will have (no baton, no jack, no Mace, no Taser) we have a tendency to see every bad situation as a reason to draw and shoot. That attitude can (and almost certainly will) get one in trouble, often unnecessarily.

Jim

Sleuth · April 14, 2011, 12:51 PM

The question was posted about what situation could exist where the .380 is not enough gun?

Easy: around here, gang members tend to travel in packs. So now you face 3 (or more) ex-con bikers, all buffed out from their last stretch in the pen. Average weight 260#, average height 6'.

Still feeling confident in your .380?

I would not feel confident with my 7.62 rifle!

mavracer · April 14, 2011, 07:36 PM

The gun is just a tool. confidence comes from your mechanical ability. Sure it'd be nice to have a Snap-on truck full of tools avaliable, but thats not always practical.

Brian48 · April 14, 2011, 07:58 PM

I'm very comfortable with my j-frame. Hasn't left my side since '94.

Deaf Smith · April 14, 2011, 09:37 PM

Total confidence in:

A) Glock 27 with Winchester 155gr T series
B) Glock 26 with Winchester 127gr +p+ T series
C) Glock 23 with Winchester 155gr T series
D) Glock 32 with CCI 125gr Gold Dot .357 Sigs.
E) Glock 17 with Winchester 127gr +p+ T series
F) Ruger Speed Six with Buffalo Bore 158gr LSWHP or Cor-Bon 158gr LSWHP
G) Ruger Gp100 3 inch with same as Speed Six loads
H) S&W 640/60/ with Cor-Bon 158gr LSWHP
I) S&W 64 2 inch with Cor-Bon 158gr LSWHP
J) Taurus TCP with WW 95 gr flatpoint FMJ
K) P32 Kel-Tec with WW 71 gr FMJ

Yea I have alot of fully capable carry guns! But as you can guess J and K are NOT primary carry guns!

Deaf

new_scopeshooter · April 15, 2011, 05:41 AM

Wow!! Way to try to start an argument. I see a lot of people who mis spell words on here. Simple mistake. And yes I can put 2 rounds through the sam hole at 25 yards with my mak. I tend to shoot about 100 to 150 rounds a week with it. 25 yards isn't that far. It would be in a fast pace event like a fight. Point is most guns will be able to stop a bad guy if you do your job. And u most practice with what you are going to carry. Have you ever shot a makarov?

April 12, 2011, 09:20 PM	#1
Gary L. Griffiths Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2000 Location: AZ, WA Posts: 1,466	Confidence in your Carry Piece I have been looking for a long time for a carry piece I have confidence in. I upgraded my Kel-Tec P-32 to a Ruger LCP, but still consider the .380 ACP marginal for defense, and the trigger-pulls on both weapons detracted seriously from my ability to shoot them accurately. Oh, I can keep all shots within about a 4" circle at 7 yds, but that doesn't give me confidence in taking head shots at longer ranges, in the unlikely event that I'm required to. Then, I got a Kel-Tec PF-9 that is almost as handy to carry as the LCP. Still, 9mm is not as powerful as I would like, and the trigger-pull on it is almost as bad as the LCP. Yesterday, after finally having adjusted the rear sight (was shooting left) and mounting an Armalaser on it, I put 100 rds through my new Walther PPS. Although I'm not a big fan of the Glock-type trigger-pull, it's orders of magnitude better than the long DAO triggers on my other weapons. After zeroing the laser, I put two magazines into one ragged quarter-sized hole in the bottom half of the silver dollar-sized black on the sight-in target, with one flyer less than 1/2" out to the lower left, at 7 yds. Using the laser, I hit the head-sized target every time at 25 yds. I finished up the 100-rd box on some discarded "dirty bird" targets at 7 yds by aiming for the numbers in the scoring rings and shooting them out. Obliterated the numbers about half the time, shot less than 1" from them every time. The gun functioned flawlessly. It just melts into my side in an IWB holster, even under a compression-type T-shirt (albeit not a tight one), and the .40 S&W stoked with Federal 165-gr HSTs are second only to premium 230-gr .45 JHPs in stopping power. I still love my Taurus PT-145 Millennium Pro for winter or formal wear under a jacket or suit coat, and will carry my LCP as my "always" gun, but for routine carry under the lightest of clothing, my PPS will be my go-to gun for the foreseeable future! __________________ Violence is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and valorous feeling which believes that nothing is worth violence is much worse. Those who have nothing for which they are willing to fight; nothing they care about more than their own craven apathy; are miserable creatures who have no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the valor of those better than themselves. Gary L. Griffiths (Paraphrasing John Stuart Mill)

April 12, 2011, 11:57 PM	#3
lawnboy Senior Member Join Date: April 5, 2011 Location: here Posts: 551	I interpret confidence somewhat more liberally than you do. What do I need to do with the gun? I need to be able to draw it and shoot it accurately and quickly. I need to be able to put follow up shots where I want them to go. I need to be able to clear it quickly if it has a stoppage. What is a quick enough draw? Who knows. I know I can do it faster now than I could 3 months ago. As long as I don't go backwards I'm cool. But I'm not trying out for a role in the remake of "The Quick and The Dead". My gun would look funny in a Western. What is accurate? I was happy and confident when I could start from the holster and put 3 shots in a target close enough to the bull to cover all 3 shots and the bull with my hand at 7 and 10 yards. How fast was I doing this? I have no idea because I didn't time it but I do it as fast as I can and I keep doing it. Sometimes I throw a flyer. But not too often. I don't have stoppages often because I have a reliable carry gun and I always shoot it with proven ammo. I do the stoppage drill without the stoppage mostly. I have a plan. Don't have to use it much. I've never thought much about head shots. My plan is center mass. Plans often have to go out the window though, so I could see the need for a headshot someday. I can cover a head with my hand so I guess I'm relying on practicing basics to see me through. But if I need to make a sure headshot at 20yds with a handgun I'm going to start looking around for the SEAL's or the HRT If you need to shoot like an HRT member to feel confident I hope you get there. That's not sarcasm, I mean it. I feel confident way short of that. I'd like to get better and I'll keep working on it though __________________ "Me fail English? That's un-possible!" --Ralph Wiggum "A woman drove me to drink and I didn't even have the decency to thank her"-- W.C Fields

April 13, 2011, 12:16 AM	#4
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	You want confidence in your carry piece, PRACTICE with it, practice with it often, several times a week at differant ranges, right hand, left hand, one handed. Practice. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

April 13, 2011, 04:48 PM	#6
Sleuth Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 445	Competence builds confidence. Confidence builds Competence. So, choose your caliber, then your gun. Then get training, and then practice. When it's YOUR DAY, you will revert to your level of training. __________________ Sleuth

April 13, 2011, 06:00 PM	#8
SauerGrapes Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 2009 Location: S.E.PA. Posts: 920	I'm comfortable with my carry gun. It's the smallest gun I feel comfortable and confident shooting. __________________ NRA member, DCF&S member, PAFOA member, USPSA member, NSCA member R.I.P.____Murphy

April 12, 2011, 10:13 PM	#2
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	If you don't have total confidence in your carry gun, you might as well leave it at home. Your morale won't be helped if you have to wonder if your gun will work or if you can bring yourself to use it. Jim

April 13, 2011, 12:49 AM	#5
Mosin44az Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2006 Posts: 2,585	Interesting info about the laser. Was thinking about adding one to my LCP. Would help with felt recoil, too.

April 13, 2011, 05:42 PM	#7
Yung.gunr Senior Member Join Date: November 11, 2010 Location: Phoenix area Posts: 1,442	What are you thinking you will be confronted with where a .380 is not enough? I find it interesting that people have this mindset that they need something larger for an average day about town. Like others have said practice practice and practice some more. You will become used to the trigger pull after a bit to where it becomes instinct and you won't notice it. Keep on mind we are not talking about a match so much as PD.

April 13, 2011, 06:43 PM	#9
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	I'm not sure I understand your point / or if there was a question... Personally, my confidence comes in practice and how well the gun runs day in and day out ...so for me, its a well tuned 5" 1911 in .45 acp ... I practice with it almost weekly ...and run at least a box a week thru it. I also run 20 or 30 boxes a month thru its sister gun in 9mm ...just because I like to shoot a 9mm in a 1911 ...and its good practice.../ I have the utmost confidence in my carry gun / or I wouldn't carry it !

April 13, 2011, 09:27 PM	#11
ltc444 Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2011 Location: Vernon AZ Posts: 1,195	To get confidence in your carry weapon requires PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE .......PRACTICE. You should be able to hold in the 10 ring without the use of sites from 15 yds out. Once you achieve that ability then you have trained your muscles and yourself to use your pistol.

April 13, 2011, 11:21 PM	#12
Tactical Jackalope Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2010 Location: Miami, Florida Posts: 6,429	+1 with the above. I would never carry a weapon or even keep one for home defense unless I've fired a thousand or so rounds through it first. Extremely picky with my carry guns and home defense guns. Which in my world, they all play a part.

April 14, 2011, 07:31 AM	#13
rigby06 Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2010 Location: Richmond VA Posts: 370	I am not going to carry a weapon unless I already have confidence in it. Which is my I most often carry a larger gun, rather than the small pocket ones, not that there is anything wrong with the pocket guns, most often they are too small for my hands, and I prefer to carry something that I can manipulate much easier, and dress around the weapon if necessary. The smallest I carry is either a 642 38 special or a Sig P232. But my main carry weapon is a Kimber 1911. I also rotate through all of my carry weapons.

April 14, 2011, 07:43 AM	#14
Skadoosh Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2010 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 2,016	For me, a carry piece must be unquestionably reliable. Personally I never trust a gun enough to carry it as my CCW until I have put at least a few hundred consecutive rounds through it without a single malfunction. I have two Sigs, a Glock, a semi-custom Colt Combat Commander and two snubby revolvers to choose from. So far, only the S&W and Colt snubbies have made the "hundreds of rounds reliable" grade... __________________ NRA Life Member USN Retired

April 14, 2011, 07:52 AM	#15
Japle Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2004 Location: Viera, Florida Posts: 1,340	If you want to have confidence in your carry piece, you should compete with it. Shooting X number of rounds at paper targets at the range doesn't tell you how you'll do under pressure, in a hurry, at different distances, etc. Shoot some IDPA matches with exactly the same gun, ammo, holster, mag pouches and cover garment you'd wear to the movies. Shoot some Steel Challenge matches without the cover garment. If you don't have equipment problems, you can have confidence in your gun and rig. And you might learn something about how you shoot under pressure.

April 14, 2011, 07:58 AM	#16
MrWesson Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2010 Posts: 357	I love my M&P9c but it is a little big and Ive been thinking of going with a small single stack 9mm. PF9 is at the top of the list currently but I want to try a kahr cw9 and a few others first. I like the 10/10/10/10 drill. Carry piece 10 shots/10yds/10 seconds/10in paper plate. Pretty simple and not always easy with a carry piece. Try it next time you head out.

April 14, 2011, 08:01 AM	#17
Boatme98 Senior Member Join Date: April 5, 2008 Location: Mid Tennessee Posts: 357	Ability and reliability. Are you competent? Is your weapon dead on reliable? I practice constantly, about 200-300 rounds every other week, weather permitting. For carry, I use a Sig P239. In the 3 years it's been my carry weapon, I've only had 1 case of FTE, and it was my fault. I'd gotten complacent about checking every shell when loading mags and loaded an egged cartridge (W.W. White box crap). Thankfully it was just during practice, and will never happen again! __________________ It's good to be the king.

April 14, 2011, 08:09 AM	#18
new_scopeshooter Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2011 Location: central ohio Posts: 391	Bullit placement is more important the size(to me) as I have stated befor I have got bad reviews for carrying a makarov(9x18) some say its underpowerd for seflf d. But I I can put two rounds in the same whole at 25 yards and I see guys that can't hit a 4 inch group ate 25 yards with a .45 I say which is better to carry. A gun u shoot well or one that makes u feel macho!! No matter what u carry make sure u practise so u can hit where u aim

April 14, 2011, 12:39 PM	#20
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Old saying: If the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Confidence in your weapon is part and parcel of confidence in yourself, not only to be able to use the weapon if you have to, but also the confidence to refrain from drawing it or using it until you have to. Too many folks who carry guns have the "hammer and nail" outlook. Since a gun is the only weapon most of will have (no baton, no jack, no Mace, no Taser) we have a tendency to see every bad situation as a reason to draw and shoot. That attitude can (and almost certainly will) get one in trouble, often unnecessarily. Jim

April 14, 2011, 12:51 PM	#21
Sleuth Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 445	The question was posted about what situation could exist where the .380 is not enough gun? Easy: around here, gang members tend to travel in packs. So now you face 3 (or more) ex-con bikers, all buffed out from their last stretch in the pen. Average weight 260#, average height 6'. Still feeling confident in your .380? I would not feel confident with my 7.62 rifle! __________________ Sleuth

April 14, 2011, 07:58 PM	#23
Brian48 Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2001 Location: Boston, People's Republic of MA Posts: 1,616	I'm very comfortable with my j-frame. Hasn't left my side since '94. __________________ Proud to have served.

April 14, 2011, 09:37 PM	#24
Deaf Smith Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2000 Location: Texican! Posts: 4,453	Total confidence in: A) Glock 27 with Winchester 155gr T series B) Glock 26 with Winchester 127gr +p+ T series C) Glock 23 with Winchester 155gr T series D) Glock 32 with CCI 125gr Gold Dot .357 Sigs. E) Glock 17 with Winchester 127gr +p+ T series F) Ruger Speed Six with Buffalo Bore 158gr LSWHP or Cor-Bon 158gr LSWHP G) Ruger Gp100 3 inch with same as Speed Six loads H) S&W 640/60/ with Cor-Bon 158gr LSWHP I) S&W 64 2 inch with Cor-Bon 158gr LSWHP J) Taurus TCP with WW 95 gr flatpoint FMJ K) P32 Kel-Tec with WW 71 gr FMJ Yea I have alot of fully capable carry guns! But as you can guess J and K are NOT primary carry guns! Deaf __________________ “To you who call yourselves ‘men of peace,’ I say, you are not safe without men of action by your side” Thucydides

April 15, 2011, 05:41 AM	#25
new_scopeshooter Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2011 Location: central ohio Posts: 391	Wow!! Way to try to start an argument. I see a lot of people who mis spell words on here. Simple mistake. And yes I can put 2 rounds through the sam hole at 25 yards with my mak. I tend to shoot about 100 to 150 rounds a week with it. 25 yards isn't that far. It would be in a fast pace event like a fight. Point is most guns will be able to stop a bad guy if you do your job. And u most practice with what you are going to carry. Have you ever shot a makarov?