Blue Dot Safety Notice 7/23/08 - Page 2

**Unclenick** · November 19, 2009, 11:51 AM

My data shows the bulk being about 0.75 grams/cc, but I don't have any to cross-check that. A full power load in .357 with 125 grain JHP, the load Alliant is warning not to try to create, fills the case almost 100%. Very little free space. In the 9mm, Alliant's recommended load for the 147 grain bullet appears to be compressed. So, yes, it should be obvious if you get a double-charge.

TX Nimrod · November 27, 2009, 11:17 PM

I thought that everyone was aware by now that there was NO PROBLEM with any lot of BlueDot. Apparently very few folks can actually read - the problem was with a few of the loads that Alliant published, not all of them. There is nothing wrong with BlueDot, other than Alliant's rather poor description of the problem to its customers.

Don't be scared of BlueDot, it is still a great powder for reduced loads in bottlenecked cases and for magnum loads in handguns. You can even use it safely in .357 and .41 Magnum loads! I just bought another two pounds - I aint scared.

/

**Unclenick** · November 29, 2009, 09:50 AM

Yes. As I've posted elsewhere, the warning made no technical sense, especially since they published 110 grain and 140, 158, and 170 grain bullet loads for it, bracketing their own warning zone. Nonetheless, I think it's only fair to state that a warning has been published, even if it is without merit in the end. Same as putting the "we won't be responsible for what you get with these loads" warning on your warm loads. Let people decide for themselves what to do about it?

BTW, those Alliant loads were not the only hot Blue Dot loads for the 125's that were circulating out there. It also isn't the first time I've seen Alliant publlish recipes that didn't look safe. They used to have one for .45 ACP 230 grain Hardball seated to 1.12" that I wrote them about. They didn't seem too anxious to move on it, but finally eliminated it a year later, and now give 1.26" as a minimum COL for that same load. At any rate, like any load data, you want to cross-check other manuals to see what the trend is?

BIGR · December 2, 2009, 07:36 PM

Years ago I loaded some 125 XTP's on top of 14.3 grains of Blue Dot. According to the manual I was using that was not a max load. Shot them in the 4 Inch S&W 686 that I shoot. Maybe thats why bystanders said what the he*l are you shooting after the loud blast shook their world. After the empty cases failed to easily eject from the cylinder I thought heck I beleive that load is a little hot and I backed down to high 13's on the grains of Blue Dot. Not loaded any Blue Dot in the .357 in years.

mini1440 · December 22, 2009, 08:08 AM

I have some green dot-2400,is this the same I am finding different recipes calling it 2 different types, please tell me if this is the same powder. Also does anyone have any experience in loading .40 s&w for a glock, or .223 semi auto, or .308 win bolt using this powder??

**Unclenick** · December 22, 2009, 09:44 AM

Welcome to the forum.

You really want to start a new thread with this kind of question, since these old ones don't get regular reading.

In the mean time. No. They aren't the same. They are made by the same company, who would not bother to undertake the expense of two different packages if they were the same powder. Green Dot is a faster powder than 2400 and would not be used in the same quantity with the same bullets. Red Dot, Green Dot, and Blue Dot are shotgun powders that find double-duty as pistol powders. Red Dot is one of the fastest burning powders made, and Green Dot isn't too far behind, being a little slower than Bullseye pistol powder on some charts, but not as slow as Unique. Blue Dot is slower than either one, but is not quite as slow as 2400. 2400 has been a good magnum pistol powder for a long time. You can see them on the Hodgdon burn rate chart here. With the smallest number being fastest, Green Dot ranks #13 and 2400 ranks #44.

In general, Green Dot is much closer to Bullseye than 2400 and will not be suitable for magnum level loads. None of these powders is in a useful burning rate range for .223 or .308 unless you want to make very, very light plinking loads. They are too fast burning and will make too much pressure too early in the bullet travel to let you safely use enough powder to achieve normal rifle velocities. In the .40 S&W, Green Dot should be OK for lighter target loads.

**Unclenick** · February 16, 2010, 10:01 AM

I posted earlier that the Blue Dot warning made no technical sense to me. I now have further information on the technical issue.

One of the members on the Shooter's Forum, gun writer Rocky Raab, got to the SHOT show this year and talked to the Alliant guys about it. He said they were reluctant to discuss it at all, and what they said sounded memorized, so I'm guessing the lawyers wrote it? The recitation explained that they retest loads periodically, and in retesting Blue Dot with 125 grain bullets in .357 Mag and loads in .41 Mag, they got some unexplained pressure spikes. Since they can't explain them they can't prevent them in a way they know is reliable, so they decided to issue the warning.

If you look at their current data, you'll see no Blue Dot loads for either 125 grain or 135 grain bullets in the .357. Also, I note there are none for any cast bullet loads. In .44 Magnum they also have none for 210, 225, 270, or 300 grain jacketed bullets. I don't know if they ran into issues there or not? The warning wording is unchanged.

A friend of mine commented that this was OK with him, as 2400 was a better magnum powder anyway, in his opinion. FWIW, YMMV.

Taroman · February 16, 2010, 01:44 PM

Ummm...and I've got an unopened canister of it. Lawn fertilizer, I guess..

Snobal · February 27, 2010, 03:26 PM

krehmkej -

I don't intend to trash my supply of Blue Dot.

I've shot a bunch of it and really like it.

Most of the time it shot very well for me --- except every once in a while it simply would not produce a good group.

When I got my chronograph and checked it, everything was just fine.

Then one day when I noticed Blue Dot did not want to group, I checked it with the chronograph again and instead of my normal 30 fps extreme spreads, I was getting 150 fps extreme spreads. It was below freezing that day.

I believe that lot of Blue Dot simply did not like cold temps so we found other powers for hunting loads since it often is below freezing during deer season in Northern Utah.

Now they tell us not to load Blue Dot in .41 mag and light .357 loads.

But ya never know when having a supply of power --- anything that will work --- will come in real handy. I'll just save mine and let them trash it when I'm gone.

JMHO

**Unclenick** · February 27, 2010, 05:32 PM

Actually, for .357 it is only 125 and 135 grain bullets they discourage. They still publish 110 grain bullet loads and loads for 140 grain bullets and up. Still a mystery why their problems would be so narrowly located at those two weights?

AlaskaMike · February 27, 2010, 09:24 PM

Quote:

I believe that lot of Blue Dot simply did not like cold temps

It's not just that specific lot you have--Blue Dot is well known for erratic performance in cold temps.

Mike

Jatmcm72 · March 2, 2010, 12:50 AM

recently i have reloaded some .40cal 180gr hornady xtp's with 7.4gr of blue dot also using cci 500 primers. has anyone had any problems trying to get these to read on a chrony. I recently tried and i had to stand back from the chrony about 15 feet to get it to read it and i noticed on the board i was shooting at there was powder burn marks. also i seen that the was burnt powder on the chrony itself. do i need to load less for it to burn correctly?

**Unclenick** · March 2, 2010, 12:19 PM

Welcome to the forum.

That's unburned powder. I don't know your COL, but you are probably running that load at too low a pressure for a powder that slow to burn well.

Unburned powder is not the only thing that can cause false chronograph readings, though. Muzzle blast shockwaves that precede the bullet can also cause high and low readings by triggering one screen or the other before the bullet gets there. We get a lot of folks posting who get anomalous readings on chronographs, sometimes very consistent but impossible readings. It almost always turns out to be because the gun is too close to the chronograph.

A good rule of thumb is that the front screen should never be closer than 10 feet from the muzzle, but even that could fail you if some kinds of particulate matter is coming out of the muzzle with the bullet. Most publication and manufacturers report velocities taken 15 feet from the muzzle. That would be 15 feet from the center point between the screens. I think that gives you a little more safety margin, and have used it even with 4 foot screen spacing (front screen at 13 feet and rear at 17 feet) without problems.

Jatmcm72 · March 4, 2010, 12:10 AM

my col is 1.125in

**Unclenick** · April 7, 2010, 12:34 PM

I'd missed getting back to this.

QuickLOAD shows that highly compressed 7.4 grain Blue Dot load only burns about 70% of the powder in the bore with a 5" barrel. The bottom line is that Blue Dot is just too slow for the application. The same velocity can be achieved with just 4.8 grains of Unique and 98% will burn in the bore. Peak pressure would be about the same.

Coffeeshop123 · April 28, 2010, 10:16 PM

With their reps and lawyers being so skittish, I'd guess they're doing some sort of damage control. It's likely that there was some sort of incident where there was a lawsuit and, coincidentally, the load happened to be the 125-gr bullet with Blue Dot. Anyway, there are plenty of other loads out there to be had, so it's best not to go against specific guidance from the manufacturer. Whether it's with my gun or my pocketbook, I prefer not to push the envelope unnecessarily.

November 19, 2009, 11:51 AM	#26
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	My data shows the bulk being about 0.75 grams/cc, but I don't have any to cross-check that. A full power load in .357 with 125 grain JHP, the load Alliant is warning not to try to create, fills the case almost 100%. Very little free space. In the 9mm, Alliant's recommended load for the 147 grain bullet appears to be compressed. So, yes, it should be obvious if you get a double-charge. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

November 29, 2009, 09:50 AM	#28
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	Yes. As I've posted elsewhere, the warning made no technical sense, especially since they published 110 grain and 140, 158, and 170 grain bullet loads for it, bracketing their own warning zone. Nonetheless, I think it's only fair to state that a warning has been published, even if it is without merit in the end. Same as putting the "we won't be responsible for what you get with these loads" warning on your warm loads. Let people decide for themselves what to do about it? BTW, those Alliant loads were not the only hot Blue Dot loads for the 125's that were circulating out there. It also isn't the first time I've seen Alliant publlish recipes that didn't look safe. They used to have one for .45 ACP 230 grain Hardball seated to 1.12" that I wrote them about. They didn't seem too anxious to move on it, but finally eliminated it a year later, and now give 1.26" as a minimum COL for that same load. At any rate, like any load data, you want to cross-check other manuals to see what the trend is? __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

December 22, 2009, 08:08 AM	#30
mini1440 Junior Member Join Date: December 22, 2009 Posts: 1	green dot -or 2400 ??? I have some green dot-2400,is this the same I am finding different recipes calling it 2 different types, please tell me if this is the same powder. Also does anyone have any experience in loading .40 s&w for a glock, or .223 semi auto, or .308 win bolt using this powder??

December 22, 2009, 09:44 AM	#31
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	Welcome to the forum. You really want to start a new thread with this kind of question, since these old ones don't get regular reading. In the mean time. No. They aren't the same. They are made by the same company, who would not bother to undertake the expense of two different packages if they were the same powder. Green Dot is a faster powder than 2400 and would not be used in the same quantity with the same bullets. Red Dot, Green Dot, and Blue Dot are shotgun powders that find double-duty as pistol powders. Red Dot is one of the fastest burning powders made, and Green Dot isn't too far behind, being a little slower than Bullseye pistol powder on some charts, but not as slow as Unique. Blue Dot is slower than either one, but is not quite as slow as 2400. 2400 has been a good magnum pistol powder for a long time. You can see them on the Hodgdon burn rate chart here. With the smallest number being fastest, Green Dot ranks #13 and 2400 ranks #44. In general, Green Dot is much closer to Bullseye than 2400 and will not be suitable for magnum level loads. None of these powders is in a useful burning rate range for .223 or .308 unless you want to make very, very light plinking loads. They are too fast burning and will make too much pressure too early in the bullet travel to let you safely use enough powder to achieve normal rifle velocities. In the .40 S&W, Green Dot should be OK for lighter target loads. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; December 22, 2009 at 11:59 AM.

February 16, 2010, 10:01 AM	#32
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	Update I posted earlier that the Blue Dot warning made no technical sense to me. I now have further information on the technical issue. One of the members on the Shooter's Forum, gun writer Rocky Raab, got to the SHOT show this year and talked to the Alliant guys about it. He said they were reluctant to discuss it at all, and what they said sounded memorized, so I'm guessing the lawyers wrote it? The recitation explained that they retest loads periodically, and in retesting Blue Dot with 125 grain bullets in .357 Mag and loads in .41 Mag, they got some unexplained pressure spikes. Since they can't explain them they can't prevent them in a way they know is reliable, so they decided to issue the warning. If you look at their current data, you'll see no Blue Dot loads for either 125 grain or 135 grain bullets in the .357. Also, I note there are none for any cast bullet loads. In .44 Magnum they also have none for 210, 225, 270, or 300 grain jacketed bullets. I don't know if they ran into issues there or not? The warning wording is unchanged. A friend of mine commented that this was OK with him, as 2400 was a better magnum powder anyway, in his opinion. FWIW, YMMV. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

November 27, 2009, 11:17 PM	#27
TX Nimrod Senior Member Join Date: November 27, 2009 Location: Zona Posts: 423	I thought that everyone was aware by now that there was NO PROBLEM with any lot of BlueDot. Apparently very few folks can actually read - the problem was with a few of the loads that Alliant published, not all of them. There is nothing wrong with BlueDot, other than Alliant's rather poor description of the problem to its customers. Don't be scared of BlueDot, it is still a great powder for reduced loads in bottlenecked cases and for magnum loads in handguns. You can even use it safely in .357 and .41 Magnum loads! I just bought another two pounds - I aint scared. /

December 2, 2009, 07:36 PM	#29
BIGR Senior Member Join Date: June 13, 2000 Location: Mountains Posts: 1,385	Years ago I loaded some 125 XTP's on top of 14.3 grains of Blue Dot. According to the manual I was using that was not a max load. Shot them in the 4 Inch S&W 686 that I shoot. Maybe thats why bystanders said what the he*l are you shooting after the loud blast shook their world. After the empty cases failed to easily eject from the cylinder I thought heck I beleive that load is a little hot and I backed down to high 13's on the grains of Blue Dot. Not loaded any Blue Dot in the .357 in years.

February 16, 2010, 01:44 PM	#33
Taroman Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2010 Posts: 166	Ummm...and I've got an unopened canister of it. Lawn fertilizer, I guess.. __________________ -jwk- Si vis pacem, para bellum

February 27, 2010, 03:26 PM	#34
Snobal Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2009 Location: Arizona Wilderness Posts: 121	krehmkej - I don't intend to trash my supply of Blue Dot. I've shot a bunch of it and really like it. Most of the time it shot very well for me --- except every once in a while it simply would not produce a good group. When I got my chronograph and checked it, everything was just fine. Then one day when I noticed Blue Dot did not want to group, I checked it with the chronograph again and instead of my normal 30 fps extreme spreads, I was getting 150 fps extreme spreads. It was below freezing that day. I believe that lot of Blue Dot simply did not like cold temps so we found other powers for hunting loads since it often is below freezing during deer season in Northern Utah. Now they tell us not to load Blue Dot in .41 mag and light .357 loads. But ya never know when having a supply of power --- anything that will work --- will come in real handy. I'll just save mine and let them trash it when I'm gone. JMHO

February 27, 2010, 05:32 PM	#35
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	Actually, for .357 it is only 125 and 135 grain bullets they discourage. They still publish 110 grain bullet loads and loads for 140 grain bullets and up. Still a mystery why their problems would be so narrowly located at those two weights? __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

March 2, 2010, 12:50 AM	#37
Jatmcm72 Junior Member Join Date: March 2, 2010 Posts: 2	recently i have reloaded some .40cal 180gr hornady xtp's with 7.4gr of blue dot also using cci 500 primers. has anyone had any problems trying to get these to read on a chrony. I recently tried and i had to stand back from the chrony about 15 feet to get it to read it and i noticed on the board i was shooting at there was powder burn marks. also i seen that the was burnt powder on the chrony itself. do i need to load less for it to burn correctly?

March 2, 2010, 12:19 PM	#38
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	Welcome to the forum. That's unburned powder. I don't know your COL, but you are probably running that load at too low a pressure for a powder that slow to burn well. Unburned powder is not the only thing that can cause false chronograph readings, though. Muzzle blast shockwaves that precede the bullet can also cause high and low readings by triggering one screen or the other before the bullet gets there. We get a lot of folks posting who get anomalous readings on chronographs, sometimes very consistent but impossible readings. It almost always turns out to be because the gun is too close to the chronograph. A good rule of thumb is that the front screen should never be closer than 10 feet from the muzzle, but even that could fail you if some kinds of particulate matter is coming out of the muzzle with the bullet. Most publication and manufacturers report velocities taken 15 feet from the muzzle. That would be 15 feet from the center point between the screens. I think that gives you a little more safety margin, and have used it even with 4 foot screen spacing (front screen at 13 feet and rear at 17 feet) without problems. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

March 4, 2010, 12:10 AM	#39
Jatmcm72 Junior Member Join Date: March 2, 2010 Posts: 2	my col is 1.125in

April 7, 2010, 12:34 PM	#40
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	I'd missed getting back to this. QuickLOAD shows that highly compressed 7.4 grain Blue Dot load only burns about 70% of the powder in the bore with a 5" barrel. The bottom line is that Blue Dot is just too slow for the application. The same velocity can be achieved with just 4.8 grains of Unique and 98% will burn in the bore. Peak pressure would be about the same. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

April 28, 2010, 10:16 PM	#41
Coffeeshop123 Member Join Date: April 27, 2010 Posts: 20	With their reps and lawyers being so skittish, I'd guess they're doing some sort of damage control. It's likely that there was some sort of incident where there was a lawsuit and, coincidentally, the load happened to be the 125-gr bullet with Blue Dot. Anyway, there are plenty of other loads out there to be had, so it's best not to go against specific guidance from the manufacturer. Whether it's with my gun or my pocketbook, I prefer not to push the envelope unnecessarily.