Form 4 Question

SVO · July 28, 2014, 06:37 PM

I did paperwork for a silencer back in September 2013, This past weekend, The ATF returned my Form 4's as incomplete due to the dealer didn't enter the silencer's serial number. I called to talk to the dealer, and a store employee indicated he was out of town until later this week. I explained the problem, and was told not to worry, that the store would be getting a duplicate copy of my Form 4's and they would enter the serial number and return them to the ATF. Which doesn't sound right to me. Is the store employee correct or not. I plan to call back later this week, and talk with the dealer, but would like to know where I might stand on this.

James K · July 28, 2014, 07:48 PM

Let us know what happens.

Jim

**Tom Servo** · July 28, 2014, 09:42 PM

That's a pretty big screw-up, but it's not fatal. The ATF already has the serial number on file--they just need the dealer to physically put it on the form. The proprietor simply has to make the correction and send it back.

This is usually done between the ATF and the store. I'm surprised they dropped it in your lap.

The good news is, these correction requests usually come close to the approval time.

SVO · July 29, 2014, 09:00 PM

Thanks for the info Tom. good to know that this isn't fatal after a 10 month wait. I'll talk with the Dealer and go from there. Thanks again.

SVO · July 30, 2014, 07:47 PM

I talked to the dealer. According to him, filing the Form 4 without the serial number is, quote, "a trick he can use to get the paperwork turned in and the approval process started" for an item he doesn't have in stock. ATF kicks the paperwork back, he fills in the missing serial number and the process proceeds with no harm, no foul, So now he has to call Gemtech, order the suppressor, have Gentech give him the serial number and then re-file the forms.

Things went down hill from there. I ask if I needed to forward the Form 4's to him. Was told no need, ATF would be sending him a copy.

Then received an email from Dealer requesting me to email him a copy of the Form 4's. Scanned & email a PDF back to him,

Received second email informing me that he couldn't file a PDF copy, he needed the originals. So have sent them by mail over night.

So will see what happens next.

**Tom Servo** · July 30, 2014, 07:53 PM

Quote:

According to him, filing the Form 4 without the serial number is, quote, "a trick he can use to get the paperwork turned in and the approval process started" for an item he doesn't have in stock.

Um, that...that is...

I need to check the regs for chapter and verse, but he's notsupposed to be doing that.

5.56RifleGuy · July 30, 2014, 11:24 PM

Wow, don't think I'd do my transfers there anymore.

gyvel · July 31, 2014, 03:32 AM

What's worse is that you have made all this public information by posting it on this forum.

el_chupo_ · July 31, 2014, 09:37 AM

Can you post the name (Or PM it to me)?

I am in Texas, and may run across this dealer in the future, want to know what to expect.

Thanks

Matt

Sharkbite · July 31, 2014, 01:10 PM

Wow...

This dealer is REALLY sidestepping the system. The regs are clear. He must have the item in his possession before he can do a form 4 to you.

If he doesnt have the item in stock he should order it. A form 3 transfer is done from the manf to the dealer. Upon the dealer getting the item a form 4 transferring the item to you is submitted.

The form 3 will add time to your wait, but your dealer is risking a lot by being sneaky

**Tom Servo** · July 31, 2014, 01:50 PM

Quote:

The regs are clear. He must have the item in his possession before he can do a form 4 to you.

Do you have a citation? I've got the NFA handbook in front of me, but it's a lot to wade through.

The dealer does swear that all information on the Form 4 is "true, correct, and complete" when he signs off on the Form 4. Willful violations of that are subject to a 10-year sentence or $10K fine under § 5861.

If the dealer is doing things like this, I'd question his judgment in any aspect of his business.

Sharkbite · July 31, 2014, 02:04 PM

The dealer does swear that all information on the Form 4 is "true, correct, and complete" when he signs off on the Form 4. Willful violations of that are subject to a 10-year sentence or $10K fine under § 5861.

You got it right there... Operative word, COMPLETE. No way to complete the form w/o the s/n. This guy "willfully" submitted an incomplete form in an attempt to circumvent the system.

He is the textbook example for that regulation

Im not saying he needs to be prosecuted, but he sure aint playin by the rules

**Tom Servo** · August 2, 2014, 05:06 PM

This is primarily a matter between the OP and the dealer. At his request, I'm closing this one down.

July 28, 2014, 06:37 PM	#1
SVO Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2009 Location: Texas Gulf Coast Posts: 728	Form 4 Question I did paperwork for a silencer back in September 2013, This past weekend, The ATF returned my Form 4's as incomplete due to the dealer didn't enter the silencer's serial number. I called to talk to the dealer, and a store employee indicated he was out of town until later this week. I explained the problem, and was told not to worry, that the store would be getting a duplicate copy of my Form 4's and they would enter the serial number and return them to the ATF. Which doesn't sound right to me. Is the store employee correct or not. I plan to call back later this week, and talk with the dealer, but would like to know where I might stand on this.

July 28, 2014, 09:42 PM	#3
Tom Servo Staff Join Date: September 27, 2008 Location: Foothills of the Appalachians Posts: 13,059	That's a pretty big screw-up, but it's not fatal. The ATF already has the serial number on file--they just need the dealer to physically put it on the form. The proprietor simply has to make the correction and send it back. This is usually done between the ATF and the store. I'm surprised they dropped it in your lap. The good news is, these correction requests usually come close to the approval time. __________________ Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change. --Randall Munroe

July 30, 2014, 07:47 PM	#5
SVO Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2009 Location: Texas Gulf Coast Posts: 728	O.K.,, I talked to the dealer. According to him, filing the Form 4 without the serial number is, quote, "a trick he can use to get the paperwork turned in and the approval process started" for an item he doesn't have in stock. ATF kicks the paperwork back, he fills in the missing serial number and the process proceeds with no harm, no foul, So now he has to call Gemtech, order the suppressor, have Gentech give him the serial number and then re-file the forms. Things went down hill from there. I ask if I needed to forward the Form 4's to him. Was told no need, ATF would be sending him a copy. Then received an email from Dealer requesting me to email him a copy of the Form 4's. Scanned & email a PDF back to him, Received second email informing me that he couldn't file a PDF copy, he needed the originals. So have sent them by mail over night. So will see what happens next.

July 30, 2014, 11:24 PM	#7
5.56RifleGuy Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2010 Location: USA Posts: 1,212	Wow, don't think I'd do my transfers there anymore. __________________ Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus

July 31, 2014, 03:32 AM	#8
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	What's worse is that you have made all this public information by posting it on this forum. __________________ As always, YMMV. __________________________________________ MIIAA SIFE

July 28, 2014, 07:48 PM	#2
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Let us know what happens. Jim

July 29, 2014, 09:00 PM	#4
SVO Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2009 Location: Texas Gulf Coast Posts: 728	Thanks for the info Tom. good to know that this isn't fatal after a 10 month wait. I'll talk with the Dealer and go from there. Thanks again.

July 31, 2014, 09:37 AM	#9
el_chupo_ Member Join Date: April 4, 2013 Posts: 43	Can you post the name (Or PM it to me)? I am in Texas, and may run across this dealer in the future, want to know what to expect. Thanks Matt

July 31, 2014, 01:10 PM	#10
Sharkbite Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2013 Location: Western slope of Colorado Posts: 3,679	Wow... This dealer is REALLY sidestepping the system. The regs are clear. He must have the item in his possession before he can do a form 4 to you. If he doesnt have the item in stock he should order it. A form 3 transfer is done from the manf to the dealer. Upon the dealer getting the item a form 4 transferring the item to you is submitted. The form 3 will add time to your wait, but your dealer is risking a lot by being sneaky

July 31, 2014, 02:04 PM	#12
Sharkbite Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2013 Location: Western slope of Colorado Posts: 3,679	The dealer does swear that all information on the Form 4 is "true, correct, and complete" when he signs off on the Form 4. Willful violations of that are subject to a 10-year sentence or $10K fine under § 5861. You got it right there... Operative word, COMPLETE. No way to complete the form w/o the s/n. This guy "willfully" submitted an incomplete form in an attempt to circumvent the system. He is the textbook example for that regulation Im not saying he needs to be prosecuted, but he sure aint playin by the rules

August 2, 2014, 05:06 PM	#13
Tom Servo Staff Join Date: September 27, 2008 Location: Foothills of the Appalachians Posts: 13,059	This is primarily a matter between the OP and the dealer. At his request, I'm closing this one down. __________________ Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change. --Randall Munroe

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