Is this a C&R handgun?

[aarondhgraham]

1892 Lebel 8mm Revolver?

Just curious is all,,,

.

[kinoons]

My understanding is anything older that 50 yrs is C&R eligible. Also note anything older than 1900 is an antique and does not require any FFL for transfer

[Winchester_73]

Also note anything older than 1900 is an antique and does not require any FFL for transfer

No. Anything 1898 or ealier is an antique unless its contemporized by changing from cap and ball to cartridge, or any other modification beyond looks.

[kinoons]

Thanks for the clarification.

[Don P]

Try this web site. www.atf.gov/ on the site you can order for FREE a copy of FFl regulations as well as a list of ALL the curios and relics again for FREE in the publications part of the site.

[tater134]

Yes the model 1892 is C&R.That one is very nice btw.

[aarondhgraham]

That is not my gun,,,
I don't have a good pic of mine,,,
So I linked to one that I found on the web.

My specimen is as nice though,,,
I had it checked out by a smith who said "shoot it".

I found some Fiocchi cartridges,,,
It's a real gas to shoot,,,
It's very tight.

.

[sixgun67]

Winchester_73, please excuse my lack of knowledge here, so you mean that an original cap and ball that is modified would not be C&R, but say, an original 1880's SAA would be C&R as is? If so, that would mean that the modification itself disqualifies it?

[carguychris]

Winchester_73, please excuse my lack of knowledge here, so you mean that an original cap and ball that is modified would not be C&R, but say, an original 1880's SAA would be C&R as is? If so, that would mean that the modification itself disqualifies it?

You seem to be mixing up C&R firearms and antiques. Let's step back a second and go over this carefully.

Antique firearms consist of anything made prior to 1/1/1899 and some replicas. Legal antiques are actually not considered "firearms" at all under federal law and can be bought or sold without a FFL, just like a hammer, a brick, or a paperback novel. Here's the entire text of the federal law explaining antiques, from 18 USC § 921.

(16) The term ``antique firearm'' means--
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica--
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term ``antique firearm'' shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

Pay particular attention to the "ands" and "ors". If the gun was made before 1/1/1899, it falls under paragraph (A), and it does not matter whether it has been converted from cap-and-ball to metallic-cartridge ammunition. Its age and therefore its status do not change. The conversion only matters if the gun is a replica that falls under paragraph (B) or a blackpowder muzzleloader under (C). (If one modifies a replica or a muzzleloader to fire metallic-cartridge ammunition, one has legally become a "firearms manufacturer", and a whole 'nother set of laws come into play.)

Also, note that the 1/1/1899 date will not change unless Congress amends the law. Barring that, it remains fixed.

C&R guns, on the other hand, fall under 3 broad categories.

1) Guns that are older than 50 years but are not antiques. (The Antique classification makes C&R status unnecessary and redundant.) It is September 9th, 2010 as I write this, so as of right now, guns made between 1/1/1899 (the "Antique" cutoff) and 9/8/1960 are C&R.

2) Guns that appear in the ATF C&R book, regardless of age.

3) Guns that have been certified by a museum curator or other expert as having some particular historical significance.

Hope this clears things up. Yes, it's confusing.

[sixgun67]

Thanks, Carguychris
sixgun

[James K]

The Modele 1892 French Ordnance Revolver, aka the Lebel, is a solid, well made and reliable revolver. Like other revolvers of the era, field stripping is simple and it is easy to maintain in the field. It is (AFAIK) unique in having a swing out cylinder that swings to the right.

Jim

[carguychris]

The Modele 1892 French Ordnance Revolver, aka the Lebel, is a solid, well made and reliable revolver... It is (AFAIK) unique in having a swing out cylinder that swings to the right.

IIRC the exact reason why the cylinder swings to the right is lost to history, but the theory is that it was designed that way for the same reason that a Colt SAA's reloading gate is on the right- a cavalryman would hold the revolver together with the horse's reins in the left hand while loading fresh cartridges with the right hand.

[aarondhgraham]

I was told that it was the first revolver (military) designed for use with smokeless powder cartridges.

Can anyone verify that for me?

.

[James K]

AFAIK, the French revolver was indeed the first to use smokeless powder, which had been invented in France.

The explanation of the right swing cylinder seems plausible, but I doubt it was the reason for the Colt SAA loading gate position. The simplest reason for the latter is that the capping cutout in the early percussion revolvers was a logical place for a loading gate, and placing it there would require a minimum change in tooling. Plus, capping, and later loading the revolver with cartridges, required the same kind of dexterity (literally "right handedness") that most users would have only in the right hand.

Of course, at least in the U.S. Army, the revolver was usually used in the left hand, the saber, considered the primary cavalry weapon, was held in the right. Or that was the theory, at least.

Jim

[darwins]

carguychris's excellent post on the definition of a C&R primarily covers the Relic part of Curio & Relic and is appropriate to the gun being discussed. Don't forget, though, that firearms that are Curios don't have to be 50 years old to qualify. Commemorative firearms are one example of a Curio.

[James K]

True, but if they are under 50 years, they are not automatically C&R. Someone has to ask that they be so designated and the BATFE has to agree and list them.

Jim

[darwins]

I don't believe that to be the case. The BATFE list is not all inclusive. Some, like the East German Makarov, are on the list despite not being 50 years old precisely because somebody petitioned for them to be included, probably as a curio rather than a relic. The law states if a gun is 50+ years old and manufactured after 1897, then it is a relic.

[carguychris]

Jim and Darwins, I believe you're both right. It depends on the situation.

The law states that an individual gun may qualify as a curio if it's specifically associated with a notable historical event or person. An example would be an ordinary, newer commercial gun that was formerly owned by a US President. The ATF C&R list cannot list all guns that may fit under this description; that would be ridiculous.

OTOH it would be highly hazardous to a dealer's business if he or she had several unlisted <50-year-old guns, or several guns with an age that can't be conclusively determined (as with many post-1960, pre-GCA non-serialized firearms), and offered them as C&R if the BATFE has not ruled specifically on their C&R status.

[divil]

Is ammunition readily available for these? Where can you buy it?

A friend of mine has one of these, I thought it was a Nagant but I recognize the italic text in your pic, it's the same as my friend's one.

[aarondhgraham]

I shoot mine every now and then,,,
I buy Fiocchi ammunition through Midway.

If you can reload here is some data,,,


A few months ago I saw another one at a gun show,,,
The guy only wanted $125 for it,,,
And I had $20 in my wallet.

.

[James K]

Sometimes, the C&R designation takes an odd turn. Collectors petitioned for the German Makarov to be placed on the C&R list when a very small number were smuggled out of East Germany and became available to advanced (spelled "rich") collectors, who paid huge sums for them. But then the Berlin Wall came down, the DDR collapsed, and there were suddenly tons of East German Makarovs on the market, all C&R. Since there was no provision for removing guns from the C&R list, they stayed. (And the collectors took a huge hit, just like folks who invested with Madoff.)

Jim

[Tamara]

Heh.

I remember a guy coming into my favorite shop back in... '87? with a Mak and a CZ-75. You'd have thought he had just strolled in with the Holy Grail and a piece of the True Cross from the way we all gathered 'round ooh-ing and aah-ing. He'd paid eight bills for the Mak, IIRC, back when a new Glock was three-and-change.

[gyvel]

The law states if a gun is 50+ years old and manufactured after 1897, then it is a relic

ATF regs state that a C&R is any firearm made 50 years before "today's" date. However, you got the second part wrong: It's 1/1/1899.

Commemoratives don't automatically go on the "less-than-50-years-old" list either. As was stated, someone has to petition ATF to have them placed there.

Interestingly enough, the Modele d'Ordnance 1892 Lebel revolver, which was the star of this thread, can fall into either category: Antique OR C&R; Dates of manufacture were stamped on the barrels and there were plenty that were made before 1899, making them bona fide antiques under ATF regs. The rest, obviously, are C&R's.