Old double barrel shotgun help!

Blake Richardson · October 31, 2009, 12:24 PM

hey guys! my father gave me a double barrel shotgun that was my grandpa's. i was told it was hand made for a mail man in the russian sector of germany?!?!? but i want to find out more than just that! THANKS!

it has on the barrel " -SPECIAL-GEWEEHR-LAUF-
-STAHL-

then 3 rings over lapping them selfs in a triangle shape

then -FRIED,KRUPP,AG-

then B S W (the S is bigger then the B and W) ~ S.u.h.l

28779 is the serial # "i think!!!" its on each piece of the gun!

MTT TL · October 31, 2009, 12:30 PM

A picture would help a lot, with close ups of engravings, marks and lettering.

Sounds like one of these though:

http://www.wiw2u.com/index.cfm?fusea...item_ID=143918

langenc · October 31, 2009, 12:30 PM

Suhl is a section/city in E germany.

There were 22LR bench guns made there (Suhl) in the late 50s.

Your guns other marks??

Blake Richardson · October 31, 2009, 12:44 PM

Sorry im new! but what is 22LR? "22 long rifle"?

Blake Richardson · October 31, 2009, 01:29 PM

here are some quick pictures!

hogdogs · October 31, 2009, 01:34 PM

No clue on the details but what did stand out to me was the fact that every screw slot is "oriented" or "indexed"... just SCREAMS "I CARE" on the part of the person/s from manufacture to present!
Brent

Blake Richardson · October 31, 2009, 01:39 PM

some are a lil off but if i was to spin them the would line up and the engravings would line up!

Lee Lapin · October 31, 2009, 02:03 PM

Do the gun a favor, and leave those screws absolutely alone... boogering up the screw slots with improperly fitting screwdrivers won't help anything.

It's too nice a gun to have that happen to it after all these years...

lpl

Blake Richardson · October 31, 2009, 02:08 PM

will do! we have not shot ever the gun just sits in the safe! but its really nice! i have never seen engravings like these!!! they are so intricate and detailed!!!!

Lee Lapin · October 31, 2009, 02:19 PM

Blake,

It looks like a WW2 bring-back, from Germany. I'd bet it was made before the war, and not for any mail man either 8^). Was your grandfather a WW2 veteran?

lpl

MTT TL · October 31, 2009, 04:44 PM

The top marks Stahl Essen indicate that the gun is made with steel from Essen.

SPECIAL GEWEHR LAUF-STAHL = German Special Steel, made in Stahl

Fried Krupp at one time was the largest industrial concerns in Germany with more than 100 factories and mills around the country. They made literally everything that could be made out of steel at one time.

This is a good clean example that is probably worth $600-900, depending upon overall condition which looks pretty nice.

SDC · October 31, 2009, 04:59 PM

A very nice shotgun you've got; the markings tell an interesting story, too. "BSW" stands for "Berlin-Suhler-Waffen", which was a company set up by the Nazis in 1938 to run the Simson & Co. gunmaking firm in Suhl (Simson was a Jewish gunmaker, and the Nazis wanted to eliminate the owners, but keep the company); the "S" in mountains on the water-table are one of the marks originally used by Simson, so it's likely that this gun was only partway through production at the time of the takeover. BSW itself was collapsed into the Gustloffewerke concern in 1940, and converted to military production only, so you've got a snapshot of a very specific time period. I would have the chambers measured to make sure you don't damage this shotgun by shooting it; it may have 2 1/2" / 66mm chambers (which might also be marked on the bottoms of the barrels), while most modern shells are either 2 3/4"/70mm or 3"/76mm long. The "Special-Gewehr-Lauf-Stahl" marking translates to "Special Gun barrel Steel", produced by the Friedrich Krupp Company of Essen.

williamd · October 31, 2009, 05:41 PM

SDC has dug out what I have. However, I will state that the proof mark (crown over U and crowned crest) indicates EAST Germanyin my GunMarks book by Byron. Sauer built similar guns into the 50's - 70's.

The engraving, checkering, cocking indicators, wood indicate a high end gun. I would get it appraised.

On the bottom of the receiver in front of the trigger gaurd there appears to be a word in script. Can you read it?

Plus, measure the chambers.

Blake Richardson · October 31, 2009, 07:17 PM

WOW! u are observant Williamd.. i didnt even notice the script by the trigger guard!

it says SIMSON

and under the barrel it has a few symbols and a S, VI, U, 13/1 or 3/1, 66mm, and Nitro

thanks again for the help guys!!!

Jim Watson · October 31, 2009, 07:28 PM

I don't know all the proof marks, but the 66 is chamber length in mm equivalent to 2 1/2, 2 9/16, 2 5/8" shells depending on how you round off, but definitely not the current standard 2 3/4" 70mm.
Interesting, the usual stamp is 65, not 66.

13/1 is the nominal barrel gauge, an oversize 13 gauge not quite accepting the 12 gauge plug; the Europeans liked to bore them tight in those days.

Blake Richardson · October 31, 2009, 07:48 PM

it could be 65 it is really small and hard to read...

now with the 13ga. u said no quite accepting the 12ga. but i put in 12ga. shell and it fit??? What dose that mean?

"DONT WORRIE I DIDNT FIRE IT" haha!

Dave McC · October 31, 2009, 08:02 PM

Blake, shell length is for a fired hull. A 2 3/4" shell is not that length before firing.

A 2 3/4" shell will insert into a 2 1/2" chamber, but when fired the crimped area has no room to completely open and pressures spike badly.

The good news, Polywad and Gamebore market 2 1/2" loads for targets and hunting.

As with all older guns, a checkover by a competent smith is mandatory.

As for the gun, a couple clues exist as to the quality.

Look at the scalloping at the rear of the action. Wood to metal fit is very tight.

The locking screws are also a clue.

Side clips didn't go on cheapo shotguns, and here the engraving isn't just to hide sloppy finishing.

Betcha the front trigger is hinged. An articulated trigger aids comfort on a light double.

Have it checked out and if the smith pronounces it sound, get proper ammo and enjoy.

A lot of shotguns got dufflebagged back to the US ca 1945. This was one of the better ones.

HTH....

williamd · October 31, 2009, 08:23 PM

Plus, you can probably get a GOOD smith to open the cylinder to take 2 3/4 rounds. With proof steel I doubt that is an issue.

Ok, Simson verifies my and SDC's findings. The triangles with the S is another Simson mark.

From the Blue Book of Gun Values ... in 1952 Russia returned control to GDR (?) and the company continued to make sporting arms, prams, bicycle and motorcycles. Operastions ceased in 2002 and bankruptcy in 2003. Pre-1936 guns are collector items.

The BB says to compare the price with Kreighoff and Merkel ... so no slouch!! Yours has all the high end indicators mentioned in the Blue Book. Both go into 5 digit prices for the early doubles!!

Not a bad gift!!!!

Blake Richardson · October 31, 2009, 09:35 PM

Kreighoff and Merkel oh WOW!!!!! those are nice! thanks dad!!! haha! he dont even know how much this gun is worth or he wouldnt of handed it to me! haha!

so should i get this gun re-done or leave it or what?

clang · October 31, 2009, 10:39 PM

Did somebody actually say this gun is worth $600-900????

Must be all those scratches on the receiver bringing the price down, don't know why anybody would put it there on a gun that works perfectly fine without it...

Lee Lapin · November 1, 2009, 08:51 AM

Blake,

Take a look at http://www.lcsmith.org/faq/faqhome.html and see the part under Maintenance and Restoration. That will give you some ideas about taking care of a valuable old double barrel. Anything other than surface care is best left to a pro...

lpl

Rusty Pressnall · November 1, 2009, 11:50 AM

Has anyone else noticed the beautiful lines of this gun in the overall view? Even without the engraving and attention to detail this thing is a piece of art, certainly not your standard Eastern bloc "architecture". I don't know about firing it, it was made to be used and I don't like to own anything just to look at it but is it worth getting damaged somehow?

williamd · November 1, 2009, 12:00 PM

I would only do what I could absolutely could not live with! Opening to use 2 3/4 ammo might be one of those. Most folks would probably not touch it .. and are probably smarter than me.

By the way, there is another Simson on another forum. A newer one and does not compare to your fine piece.

Simply a very nice gun. Tell your Dad I am adoptable!!

Blake Richardson · November 1, 2009, 02:20 PM

hey can u post a link to that other Simson forum? i would like to read up on it as well..

Thanks again! to all who have helped me out with this gun!

my dad also gave me some other shot guns as well
a matching set browning auto 5 12ga. and 16ga. both are identical an have matching gold triggers! are they anything special?

I have been hunting with a 870 express 20ga. for 9 years now that was the first shotgun i ever bought so the AUTO 5's look real tempting to use! lol...

williamd · November 2, 2009, 09:51 PM

Go to that other major, but secondary!, forum - something to do with firearms - and search for Simson.

October 31, 2009, 12:24 PM	#1
Blake Richardson Junior Member Join Date: October 31, 2009 Location: LASVEGAS, N.V. Posts: 9	Old double barrel shotgun help! hey guys! my father gave me a double barrel shotgun that was my grandpa's. i was told it was hand made for a mail man in the russian sector of germany?!?!? but i want to find out more than just that! THANKS! it has on the barrel " -SPECIAL-GEWEEHR-LAUF- -STAHL- then 3 rings over lapping them selfs in a triangle shape then -FRIED,KRUPP,AG- then B S W (the S is bigger then the B and W) ~ S.u.h.l 28779 is the serial # "i think!!!" its on each piece of the gun! Last edited by Blake Richardson; October 31, 2009 at 12:48 PM.

October 31, 2009, 12:44 PM	#4
Blake Richardson Junior Member Join Date: October 31, 2009 Location: LASVEGAS, N.V. Posts: 9	Sorry im new! but what is 22LR? "22 long rifle"? __________________ NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF STUPID PEOPLE IN LARGE NUMBERS!!! Last edited by Blake Richardson; October 31, 2009 at 01:18 PM.

October 31, 2009, 01:29 PM	#5
Blake Richardson Junior Member Join Date: October 31, 2009 Location: LASVEGAS, N.V. Posts: 9	here are some quick pictures! __________________ NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF STUPID PEOPLE IN LARGE NUMBERS!!!

October 31, 2009, 01:39 PM	#7
Blake Richardson Junior Member Join Date: October 31, 2009 Location: LASVEGAS, N.V. Posts: 9	some are a lil off but if i was to spin them the would line up and the engravings would line up! __________________ NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF STUPID PEOPLE IN LARGE NUMBERS!!!

October 31, 2009, 02:03 PM	#8
Lee Lapin Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2004 Location: SE NC Posts: 1,239	Do the gun a favor, and leave those screws absolutely alone... boogering up the screw slots with improperly fitting screwdrivers won't help anything. It's too nice a gun to have that happen to it after all these years... lpl __________________ Mindset - Skillset - Toolset. In that order! Attitude and skill will get you through times of no gear, better than gear will get you through times of no attitude and no skill.

October 31, 2009, 12:30 PM	#2
MTT TL Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2009 Location: Quadling Country Posts: 2,780	A picture would help a lot, with close ups of engravings, marks and lettering. Sounds like one of these though: http://www.wiw2u.com/index.cfm?fusea...item_ID=143918

October 31, 2009, 12:30 PM	#3
langenc Senior Member Join Date: August 19, 2007 Location: Montmorency Co, MI Posts: 1,551	Suhl is a section/city in E germany. There were 22LR bench guns made there (Suhl) in the late 50s. Your guns other marks??

October 31, 2009, 01:34 PM	#6
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	No clue on the details but what did stand out to me was the fact that every screw slot is "oriented" or "indexed"... just SCREAMS "I CARE" on the part of the person/s from manufacture to present! Brent

October 31, 2009, 02:08 PM	#9
Blake Richardson Junior Member Join Date: October 31, 2009 Location: LASVEGAS, N.V. Posts: 9	will do! we have not shot ever the gun just sits in the safe! but its really nice! i have never seen engravings like these!!! they are so intricate and detailed!!!! __________________ NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF STUPID PEOPLE IN LARGE NUMBERS!!!

October 31, 2009, 02:19 PM	#10
Lee Lapin Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2004 Location: SE NC Posts: 1,239	Blake, It looks like a WW2 bring-back, from Germany. I'd bet it was made before the war, and not for any mail man either 8^). Was your grandfather a WW2 veteran? lpl __________________ Mindset - Skillset - Toolset. In that order! Attitude and skill will get you through times of no gear, better than gear will get you through times of no attitude and no skill.

October 31, 2009, 04:44 PM	#11
MTT TL Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2009 Location: Quadling Country Posts: 2,780	The top marks Stahl Essen indicate that the gun is made with steel from Essen. SPECIAL GEWEHR LAUF-STAHL = German Special Steel, made in Stahl Fried Krupp at one time was the largest industrial concerns in Germany with more than 100 factories and mills around the country. They made literally everything that could be made out of steel at one time. This is a good clean example that is probably worth $600-900, depending upon overall condition which looks pretty nice.

October 31, 2009, 04:59 PM	#12
SDC Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2001 Location: People's Republic of Kanada Posts: 1,652	A very nice shotgun you've got; the markings tell an interesting story, too. "BSW" stands for "Berlin-Suhler-Waffen", which was a company set up by the Nazis in 1938 to run the Simson & Co. gunmaking firm in Suhl (Simson was a Jewish gunmaker, and the Nazis wanted to eliminate the owners, but keep the company); the "S" in mountains on the water-table are one of the marks originally used by Simson, so it's likely that this gun was only partway through production at the time of the takeover. BSW itself was collapsed into the Gustloffewerke concern in 1940, and converted to military production only, so you've got a snapshot of a very specific time period. I would have the chambers measured to make sure you don't damage this shotgun by shooting it; it may have 2 1/2" / 66mm chambers (which might also be marked on the bottoms of the barrels), while most modern shells are either 2 3/4"/70mm or 3"/76mm long. The "Special-Gewehr-Lauf-Stahl" marking translates to "Special Gun barrel Steel", produced by the Friedrich Krupp Company of Essen. __________________ Gun control in Canada: making the streets safer for rapists, muggers, and other violent criminals since 1936. Last edited by SDC; October 31, 2009 at 05:28 PM.

October 31, 2009, 05:41 PM	#13
williamd Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2007 Location: SoCal Posts: 801	SDC has dug out what I have. However, I will state that the proof mark (crown over U and crowned crest) indicates EAST Germanyin my GunMarks book by Byron. Sauer built similar guns into the 50's - 70's. The engraving, checkering, cocking indicators, wood indicate a high end gun. I would get it appraised. On the bottom of the receiver in front of the trigger gaurd there appears to be a word in script. Can you read it? Plus, measure the chambers. __________________ "Outlaw guns and only outlaws will have guns!" Unfortunately, we may be moving in that direction. NRA Benefactor, Conservative!, VN '64-'65. Never sell a gun or a car ... and retire rich!

October 31, 2009, 07:17 PM	#14
Blake Richardson Junior Member Join Date: October 31, 2009 Location: LASVEGAS, N.V. Posts: 9	WOW! u are observant Williamd.. i didnt even notice the script by the trigger guard! it says SIMSON and under the barrel it has a few symbols and a S, VI, U, 13/1 or 3/1, 66mm, and Nitro thanks again for the help guys!!! __________________ NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF STUPID PEOPLE IN LARGE NUMBERS!!!

October 31, 2009, 07:28 PM	#15
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,539	I don't know all the proof marks, but the 66 is chamber length in mm equivalent to 2 1/2, 2 9/16, 2 5/8" shells depending on how you round off, but definitely not the current standard 2 3/4" 70mm. Interesting, the usual stamp is 65, not 66. 13/1 is the nominal barrel gauge, an oversize 13 gauge not quite accepting the 12 gauge plug; the Europeans liked to bore them tight in those days.

October 31, 2009, 07:48 PM	#16
Blake Richardson Junior Member Join Date: October 31, 2009 Location: LASVEGAS, N.V. Posts: 9	it could be 65 it is really small and hard to read... now with the 13ga. u said no quite accepting the 12ga. but i put in 12ga. shell and it fit??? What dose that mean? "DONT WORRIE I DIDNT FIRE IT" haha! __________________ NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF STUPID PEOPLE IN LARGE NUMBERS!!!

October 31, 2009, 08:02 PM	#17
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Blake, shell length is for a fired hull. A 2 3/4" shell is not that length before firing. A 2 3/4" shell will insert into a 2 1/2" chamber, but when fired the crimped area has no room to completely open and pressures spike badly. The good news, Polywad and Gamebore market 2 1/2" loads for targets and hunting. As with all older guns, a checkover by a competent smith is mandatory. As for the gun, a couple clues exist as to the quality. Look at the scalloping at the rear of the action. Wood to metal fit is very tight. The locking screws are also a clue. Side clips didn't go on cheapo shotguns, and here the engraving isn't just to hide sloppy finishing. Betcha the front trigger is hinged. An articulated trigger aids comfort on a light double. Have it checked out and if the smith pronounces it sound, get proper ammo and enjoy. A lot of shotguns got dufflebagged back to the US ca 1945. This was one of the better ones. HTH....

October 31, 2009, 08:23 PM	#18
williamd Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2007 Location: SoCal Posts: 801	Plus, you can probably get a GOOD smith to open the cylinder to take 2 3/4 rounds. With proof steel I doubt that is an issue. Ok, Simson verifies my and SDC's findings. The triangles with the S is another Simson mark. From the Blue Book of Gun Values ... in 1952 Russia returned control to GDR (?) and the company continued to make sporting arms, prams, bicycle and motorcycles. Operastions ceased in 2002 and bankruptcy in 2003. Pre-1936 guns are collector items. The BB says to compare the price with Kreighoff and Merkel ... so no slouch!! Yours has all the high end indicators mentioned in the Blue Book. Both go into 5 digit prices for the early doubles!! Not a bad gift!!!! __________________ "Outlaw guns and only outlaws will have guns!" Unfortunately, we may be moving in that direction. NRA Benefactor, Conservative!, VN '64-'65. Never sell a gun or a car ... and retire rich!

October 31, 2009, 09:35 PM	#19
Blake Richardson Junior Member Join Date: October 31, 2009 Location: LASVEGAS, N.V. Posts: 9	Kreighoff and Merkel oh WOW!!!!! those are nice! thanks dad!!! haha! he dont even know how much this gun is worth or he wouldnt of handed it to me! haha! so should i get this gun re-done or leave it or what? __________________ NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF STUPID PEOPLE IN LARGE NUMBERS!!!

October 31, 2009, 10:39 PM	#20
clang Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2009 Posts: 119	Did somebody actually say this gun is worth $600-900???? Must be all those scratches on the receiver bringing the price down, don't know why anybody would put it there on a gun that works perfectly fine without it... __________________ If the horse don't pull you've got to carry the load.

November 1, 2009, 08:51 AM	#21
Lee Lapin Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2004 Location: SE NC Posts: 1,239	Blake, Take a look at http://www.lcsmith.org/faq/faqhome.html and see the part under Maintenance and Restoration. That will give you some ideas about taking care of a valuable old double barrel. Anything other than surface care is best left to a pro... lpl __________________ Mindset - Skillset - Toolset. In that order! Attitude and skill will get you through times of no gear, better than gear will get you through times of no attitude and no skill.

November 1, 2009, 11:50 AM	#22
Rusty Pressnall Junior Member Join Date: November 1, 2009 Posts: 3	Has anyone else noticed the beautiful lines of this gun in the overall view? Even without the engraving and attention to detail this thing is a piece of art, certainly not your standard Eastern bloc "architecture". I don't know about firing it, it was made to be used and I don't like to own anything just to look at it but is it worth getting damaged somehow?

November 1, 2009, 12:00 PM	#23
williamd Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2007 Location: SoCal Posts: 801	I would only do what I could absolutely could not live with! Opening to use 2 3/4 ammo might be one of those. Most folks would probably not touch it .. and are probably smarter than me. By the way, there is another Simson on another forum. A newer one and does not compare to your fine piece. Simply a very nice gun. Tell your Dad I am adoptable!! __________________ "Outlaw guns and only outlaws will have guns!" Unfortunately, we may be moving in that direction. NRA Benefactor, Conservative!, VN '64-'65. Never sell a gun or a car ... and retire rich!

November 1, 2009, 02:20 PM	#24
Blake Richardson Junior Member Join Date: October 31, 2009 Location: LASVEGAS, N.V. Posts: 9	hey can u post a link to that other Simson forum? i would like to read up on it as well.. Thanks again! to all who have helped me out with this gun! my dad also gave me some other shot guns as well a matching set browning auto 5 12ga. and 16ga. both are identical an have matching gold triggers! are they anything special? I have been hunting with a 870 express 20ga. for 9 years now that was the first shotgun i ever bought so the AUTO 5's look real tempting to use! lol... __________________ NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF STUPID PEOPLE IN LARGE NUMBERS!!! Last edited by Blake Richardson; November 1, 2009 at 02:47 PM.

November 2, 2009, 09:51 PM	#25
williamd Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2007 Location: SoCal Posts: 801	Go to that other major, but secondary!, forum - something to do with firearms - and search for Simson. __________________ "Outlaw guns and only outlaws will have guns!" Unfortunately, we may be moving in that direction. NRA Benefactor, Conservative!, VN '64-'65. Never sell a gun or a car ... and retire rich!