pistolwhipping

Doug.38PR · October 17, 2005, 05:16 PM

Suppose a crazy guy comes up to me and some friends and starts (he's drunk, on drugs, or just crazy) going bezerk on us swinging his fists or trying to start a fight or even swinging a bat or a bottle. I don't want to have to kill the poor nut, so suppose I pull my revolver and pistolwhip him in the face or over the head. He drops unconcious.
Police get there.
(granted they may take a way my gun as evidence or something like that)
but in the longrun, DO I GET IN TROUBLE because I took my gun out? I wasn't using deadly force by trying to shoot him (although if I percieved a threat against my life, I certainly could have done so...after all if the guy is bigger than me and especially if he has a dangerous weapon). Granted pistolwhipping can cripple someone or even kill them (but then so can a nightstick).

Is pistolwhipping considered deadly force?

mete · October 17, 2005, 05:26 PM

It's a bad idea to use a gun as a club .Too much chance to accidently fire the gun or have it taken away from you.Retreat if you can. If he has a weapon you have a right to fire .

azredhawk44 · October 17, 2005, 05:27 PM

I'd say it depends on whether the DA looks at it as self-restraint on your part and using improvised brass knuckles or something, or if he looks at it instead as brandishing.

Why risk your safety though? If you were legitimately in danger because of some idiot's bad judgement, use the end that goes "boom".

No lawsuit later on, that way.

pax · October 17, 2005, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Is pistolwhipping considered deadly force?

Deadly force: that degree of force a reasonable and prudent person would consider capable of causing death or grave bodily harm (eg maiming or crippling injury).

Beating someone upside the head with a hefty piece of metal is likely to knock them unconscious, cause brain damage, or kill them. Any reasonable and prudent person knows that (as you do yourself; your post said so).

Therefore, yes. Pistolwhipping is deadly force.

Incidentally, it's a bad idea to use a loaded gun for beating someone. You could shoot your eye out.

pax

Avizpls · October 17, 2005, 05:55 PM

The classic pistol whip involves grabbing the barrel, and smacking the butt on something-

rephrase:

The classic pistol whip involves aiming the gun at your self, and submitting the gun to a sudden shock-force

Mannlicher · October 17, 2005, 05:56 PM

Some folks have WAY too much spare time.

subseven · October 17, 2005, 06:21 PM

redhawk, your disregard for human life is disheartening.

Just knock the guy out the old fashioned way... As a carrier what would you do if you saw some guy knocking a drunk with a pistol... stay safe

gddyup · October 17, 2005, 07:52 PM

This scenario begs for some form of empty hand skills. You shouldn't have to draw your weapon as a form of non-lethal force. Empty hand skills enforced properly should give you the distance needed to get out of the situation or incapacitate the attacker regardless of size (for the most part). OC spray could be a good alternative also.

joab · October 17, 2005, 08:13 PM

Quote:

The classic pistol whip involves grabbing the barrel, and smacking the butt on something-

Not exactly.
Watch the movie Tombstone Kurt Russel employed Wyatt Earp favorite form of subduing a prisoner at least twice.
Once on Powers Boothe and once on the guy from the Nerd movies.
It was also called buffaloing.
Assuming that you are employing all four of the big four it wouldn't be any worse than any other truncheon type weapon.
It may also be a viable alternative if you draw and then find that you can't safely shoot without the bullet going into something you don't particularly want to destroy

It can cause death or disability but then so can shooting the person
Deadly force is deadly force

wayneinFL · October 17, 2005, 08:26 PM

Don't hit some hard headed idiot with your gun. You could break your gun.

Trying to start a fight? Ignore him and/or leave.

Punching? Use empty hands, OC, or get outta there.

Swinging a bat? If you can run, then run. If not, get your gun out, but don't waste time hitting him with it. Shoot.

+1 Joab. Deadly force is deadly force.

pittbug · October 17, 2005, 08:41 PM

A swift kick to the family jewels ought to take of business.

**JohnKSa** · October 17, 2005, 08:47 PM

Hitting a person in the head with a piece of metal can kill them. If you kill a person by hitting him in the head with a pistol, it had better be unloaded or you will almost certainly go to jail.

The use of deadly force is nearly always predicated upon the belief by the person using deadly force that deadly force is the ONLY reasonable option and that it is IMMEDIATELY necessary.

Hitting a person with a loaded pistol may be seen as an admission by you that deadly force wasn't warranted. Given the fact that YOUR belief about the necessity and urgency of the situation has a bearing on whether or not deadly force is justified, you may have just testified with your actions that you didn't believe it was necessary.

And hitting a person with your fist hard enough to knock him out may also cause permanent injury or death. It's not like the movies.

The idea that you can just tap a person, knock them out and wait for the cops to show up is a fairy tale.

Denny Hansen · October 17, 2005, 09:04 PM

As most everyone replied here, it is a very bad idea. I’m closing this one at it does nothing to show that we support responsible use of firearms here.

Denny

October 17, 2005, 05:16 PM	#1
Doug.38PR Junior member Join Date: January 18, 2005 Posts: 3,298	pistolwhipping Suppose a crazy guy comes up to me and some friends and starts (he's drunk, on drugs, or just crazy) going bezerk on us swinging his fists or trying to start a fight or even swinging a bat or a bottle. I don't want to have to kill the poor nut, so suppose I pull my revolver and pistolwhip him in the face or over the head. He drops unconcious. Police get there. (granted they may take a way my gun as evidence or something like that) but in the longrun, DO I GET IN TROUBLE because I took my gun out? I wasn't using deadly force by trying to shoot him (although if I percieved a threat against my life, I certainly could have done so...after all if the guy is bigger than me and especially if he has a dangerous weapon). Granted pistolwhipping can cripple someone or even kill them (but then so can a nightstick). Is pistolwhipping considered deadly force?

October 17, 2005, 05:56 PM	#6
Mannlicher Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2001 Location: North Central Florida & Miami Posts: 3,208	Some folks have WAY too much spare time. __________________ Nemo Me Impune Lacesset "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan

October 17, 2005, 07:52 PM	#8
gddyup Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2005 Location: Derry, NH Posts: 219	This scenario begs for some form of empty hand skills. You shouldn't have to draw your weapon as a form of non-lethal force. Empty hand skills enforced properly should give you the distance needed to get out of the situation or incapacitate the attacker regardless of size (for the most part). OC spray could be a good alternative also. __________________ Firefighter/EMT - Currently teamed on Engine 1... I always get to play with my Knob! "Good judgement comes from experience and experience comes from poor judgement" - Unknown. "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." - Robert A. Heinlein

October 17, 2005, 08:47 PM	#12
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,967	Hitting a person in the head with a piece of metal can kill them. If you kill a person by hitting him in the head with a pistol, it had better be unloaded or you will almost certainly go to jail. The use of deadly force is nearly always predicated upon the belief by the person using deadly force that deadly force is the ONLY reasonable option and that it is IMMEDIATELY necessary. Hitting a person with a loaded pistol may be seen as an admission by you that deadly force wasn't warranted. Given the fact that YOUR belief about the necessity and urgency of the situation has a bearing on whether or not deadly force is justified, you may have just testified with your actions that you didn't believe it was necessary. And hitting a person with your fist hard enough to knock him out may also cause permanent injury or death. It's not like the movies. The idea that you can just tap a person, knock them out and wait for the cops to show up is a fairy tale. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

October 17, 2005, 09:04 PM	#13
Denny Hansen Staff Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2001 Location: Prescott Valley, AZ Posts: 2,422	As most everyone replied here, it is a very bad idea. I’m closing this one at it does nothing to show that we support *responsible* use of firearms here. Denny __________________ S.W.A.T. Magazine Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook

October 17, 2005, 05:26 PM	#2
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	It's a bad idea to use a gun as a club .Too much chance to accidently fire the gun or have it taken away from you.Retreat if you can. If he has a weapon you have a right to fire .

October 17, 2005, 05:27 PM	#3
azredhawk44 Junior member Join Date: September 28, 2005 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 6,465	I'd say it depends on whether the DA looks at it as self-restraint on your part and using improvised brass knuckles or something, or if he looks at it instead as brandishing. Why risk your safety though? If you were legitimately in danger because of some idiot's bad judgement, use the end that goes "boom". No lawsuit later on, that way.

October 17, 2005, 05:55 PM	#5
Avizpls Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2004 Posts: 774	The classic pistol whip involves grabbing the barrel, and smacking the butt on something- rephrase: The classic pistol whip involves aiming the gun at your self, and submitting the gun to a sudden shock-force

October 17, 2005, 06:21 PM	#7
subseven Junior Member Join Date: August 23, 2005 Posts: 9	redhawk, your disregard for human life is disheartening. Just knock the guy out the old fashioned way... As a carrier what would you do if you saw some guy knocking a drunk with a pistol... stay safe

October 17, 2005, 08:26 PM	#10
wayneinFL Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2004 Posts: 1,944	Don't hit some hard headed idiot with your gun. You could break your gun. Trying to start a fight? Ignore him and/or leave. Punching? Use empty hands, OC, or get outta there. Swinging a bat? If you can run, then run. If not, get your gun out, but don't waste time hitting him with it. Shoot. +1 Joab. Deadly force is deadly force.

October 17, 2005, 08:41 PM	#11
pittbug Member Join Date: July 28, 2005 Location: PA, Shoot: PA, OH Posts: 51	A swift kick to the family jewels ought to take of business.

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