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Old August 13, 2018, 10:39 PM   #26
marine6680
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My last wasn't for you buckey.

It was for the guy that posted before me.


The PRO is basically the COMP M2, which has a long track record. So while it has only been out a few years now, it has two things going for it.

Being based on an older model of military grade optic, and coming from a company with a long reputation of making tough, high quality optics.

Aimpoint took an older design, both electronically and the body/tube/housing, and packaged it as a lower cost all in one option for police use. (All in one as it came ready to go with a proper mount)

So while as the PRO it is fairly new, as the COMP M2, it has had well over a decade of use in combat.

Last edited by marine6680; August 13, 2018 at 10:52 PM.
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Old August 14, 2018, 04:54 AM   #27
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Marine6680, Thank you very much for your insight, Sharing insight and opinions is a great way to check out products without making mistakes. Bouncing ideas off others like yourself keeps me from buying twice!
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Old August 14, 2018, 08:23 AM   #28
Fishbed77
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Quote:
The PRO is basically the COMP M2, which has a long track record. So while it has only been out a few years now, it has two things going for it.
The PRO is more similar to the Comp M3, with it's 2MOA dot and ACET technology, and the PRO itself been around for almost 8 years (I got my first one in early 2011). It's a well-proven optic at this point.

I own some cheap range-use red dots. Most are perfectly fine for their intended use. I have a Vortex Strikefire that's OK for plinking, but the battery life is short, the glass very green, and the button placement is terrible (not protected and easy to accidentally turn on - leading to a dead battery when you need it).

I also own a SIG Romeo5, and it's surprisingly crisp with glass as clear as an Aimpoint. It checks most of the boxes, except that it unfortunately uses push-button controls vs the vastly superior rotary controls of an Aimpoint. It may actually be a suitable defensive red dot in a pinch, but why leave it to chance? Just get an Aimpoint for hard use.
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Old August 14, 2018, 09:28 AM   #29
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Take it for what it's worth. For most folks, the Romeo 4 will serve you just fine. If you decide you want something more expensive, save you pennies and get what you want but enjoy what you have in the interim.
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Old August 14, 2018, 09:34 AM   #30
marine6680
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Yeah, the PRO is a bit of a mix between the M2 and M3.

The tech isn't quite as good as the M3, as the battery life is about 40% shorter using the same battery, and they are using elements from the M2 as well. (Battery life is still a bit over 3yrs though, even if not as good as the M3, it is better than the M2)

Either way, it is a derivative of a proven solid optic.

The M2 was brought out in 2000, and was adopted by the US military, they upgraded to the new model a few years ago, but I would bet that there are still some M2s gloating around in inventory, because they still work and no need in tossing a good optic until it craps out.

I remember reading somewhere, a statement from Aimpoint, laying out basically this discussion, where they got costs down by using there more mature design, and older electronic tech inside.

In the end, the Romeo will likely work fine,and be a decently solid optic... It's just an unknown when it comes down to it... And the Aimpoints are combat proven.
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Old August 14, 2018, 12:22 PM   #31
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Quote:
I also own a SIG Romeo5, and it's surprisingly crisp with glass as clear as an Aimpoint. It checks most of the boxes, except that it unfortunately uses push-button controls vs the vastly superior rotary controls of an Aimpoint. It may actually be a suitable defensive red dot in a pinch, but why leave it to chance? Just get an Aimpoint for hard use.
Well, just so the OP is clear, ... the 2-MOA Romeo5 is the same size & weight as Aimpoint's pricey T-1/H-1 units, which are technically mini-RDs, and the R-5 will fit the same aftermarket mounts as the T-1/H-1.

My R-5 runs on a rock-solid ADM Q.D. low-pro picatinny mount. The whole set-up is quite light.

The other Aimpoint units being mentioned, the PRO and the Comp M2/M3, are all larger, heavy RDSs with different mounting systems.

The OP might want to consider size & weight issues in relation to the particular weapons-system he'll be mounting one of these RD optics on.

Last edited by agtman; August 14, 2018 at 12:27 PM.
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Old August 14, 2018, 01:16 PM   #32
bfoosh006
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Pay less...

https://palmettostatearmory.com/sig-...ck-r52001.html

And get the Romeo 5 ... motion activated, with auto shut off.
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Old August 14, 2018, 01:34 PM   #33
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Well, just so the OP is clear, ... the 2-MOA Romeo5 is the same size & weight as Aimpoint's pricey T-1/H-1 units, which are technically mini-RDs, and the R-5 will fit the same aftermarket mounts as the T-1/H-1.

My R-5 runs on a rock-solid ADM Q.D. low-pro picatinny mount. The whole set-up is quite light.

The other Aimpoint units being mentioned, the PRO and the Comp M2/M3, are all larger, heavy RDSs with different mounting systems.
Correct. I only mention the Romeo5 because it was brought up earlier in this thread.

The M2/M3/PRO are certainly larger and heavier. But honestly, they aren't terribly heavy. Much of the weight of the PRO comes from the incredibly beefy QRP2 mount/riser included with it. You can certainly get a lighter mount for the PRO if you want one, but I've always been OK with the QRP2.
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Old August 14, 2018, 02:51 PM   #34
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There are pros and cons when it comes to the mini and standard sized RDS.

A larger lens allows for more forgiveness in head position when shooting from awkward shooting positions. You do gain a bit of weight, but not too much, as was said, a good mount can save a couple ounces. The T2 sized optics are the inverse of that.

A recent test of RDS sights and their parallax error at various distance showed that the cheaper optics induced more error than the nicer ones. (Or as they tested it, the aiming error induced when not looking straight through the center of the optic, not technically parallax, but we can use the term for a lack of a better one)

They provided info on the maximum error at the extreme limit of viewing angles. Generally the error got progressively worse the farther from center you were.

The T2 had the least of the RDS, the MRO had the worst, and the cheap sights were on par with the MRO.

Something to note, is that between the Aimpoint options, the PRO was similar to the COMP m4 tested.

I have a hypothesis to go with this. The farther from center that you are looking at the dot, the larger the induced error will be. Standard size RDS like the COMP allow you to be more off center than the smaller T2, and that would make the maximum error larger.

The MRO has a larger window than the T2 so it would naturally be larger error, it's still twice the error of the COMP, which has a an even larger window.

The cheaper RDS they checked were of the mini/T2 size, yet had error close to the MRO, and about 6 times the error of the T2.

For reference, the maximum average aiming error due to parallax.

T2, 2moa
Comp/PRO, 6moa
MRO and cheaper optics, around 12moa

Inside 100yds, the error of the Aimpoint options still gets COM hits, but it may be off target in the MRO or cheaper optics.

In a real fight, there is enough chaos as to limit the effect that the raw numbers show, human error will be amplified under that level of stress, but less error is always a good thing. Having a sighting system that is reliable and accurately gives you solid aiming, helps reduce the costs of stress induced error.
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Old August 14, 2018, 05:02 PM   #35
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Quote:
For reference, the maximum average aiming error due to parallax.
T2, 2moa
Comp/PRO, 6moa
MRO and cheaper optics, around 12moa
Inside 100yds, the error of the Aimpoint options still gets COM hits, but it may be off target in the MRO or cheaper optics.
In a real fight, there is enough chaos as to limit the effect that the raw numbers show, human error will be amplified under that level of stress, but less error is always a good thing. Having a sighting system that is reliable and accurately gives you solid aiming, helps reduce the costs of stress induced error.
What 'cheaper' RD optics were actually tested? You never named them. The Sig Romeo4/5 line?

Also, in a 'Combat Zone' of 150-yds or less, *most* decent quality non-Aimpoint RDSs - whether mini-RDs or otherwise - will allow first-round COM hits in the upper thoracic cavity (essentially 'kill-shots') if properly zeroed - especially if the ammo is 77gn OTM Mod 1, and you're using the 50-yd/225-yd zero. You know the drill.

Frankly, on my 9" 5.56 SBR, which I'd only use for self-defense within that maximum distance (150-yds) - and more likely inside 50-yds, or even room distance - parallax isn't ever going to affect 'practical' accuracy at all. You'd have to be a really bad shot for that to happen. In this context, 'practical' accuracy generally means 'minute-of-bad-guy(s).'

It's not about 'precision'; it's about making first-round hits that put hostile a-holes face-down on the floor, dirt, or street.

So, on a short, light 5.56 SBR, why would I want to weigh it down with a larger than necessary RD optic+mount for the that particular weapons-system, given its intended use and relatively short defensive range?

That's why you see so many users of short, light SBRs running T-1/H-1s (+ the mount). For me, the R-5 works for the same intended purpose and saves me hard cash.

Last edited by agtman; August 14, 2018 at 05:15 PM.
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Old August 14, 2018, 06:58 PM   #36
marine6680
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PA, holosun, and I think Sig was in there too.

They are all made by the same OEM, basically identical internally.

At closer range the parallax isn't going to be an issue... But it can be at 100-150yfs and more.

You don't just think about best case, you also have to think about when things go wrong, because that's when you need your equipment to be up to the task.

You also think about all of the potential needs from your equipment.

The OP has expressed desire for needs beyond simple home defense and close range needs.

A firefight can go in many different directions, and surprises abound, ambushes are a tactic that you can be on the wrong end of... All of this matters for the use the OP wants. Sure, it's highly unlikely that the OP would find himself in a real dire situation such as WORoL, but that is a use he wants the optic for.

The Sig is likely fine for a good bit of things, and likely tough enough to get banged around a bit...


But is it tough enough for serious field use? I can't say it is, and therefore I can't recommend it for any role that includes such use.

I recommend the PA RDS as a good low cost option, I think the steps taken to make it more rugged are a good upgrade over the holosun derivatives like the older PA RDS and the Romeo 5. But all are decent optics, and they would serve most shooter's needs well.

Any decent RDS will let you make fast shots at close range. And speed is important, but a missed shot is useless, so actually hitting is important, if your sight can induce a miss at reasonable ranges for the optic, then that is a problem.


But no one can honestly say that the Romeo optics have been proven reliable for hard use.
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Old August 15, 2018, 07:00 AM   #37
agtman
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A recent test of RDS sights and their parallax error at various distance showed that the cheaper optics induced more error than the nicer ones. * * * They provided info on the maximum error at the extreme limit of viewing angles. Generally the error got progressively worse the farther from center you were.
The T2 had the least of the RDS, the MRO had the worst, and the cheap sights were on par with the MRO.
Something to note, is that between the Aimpoint options, the PRO was similar to the COMP m4 tested.
Quote:
PA, holosun, and I think Sig was in there too.
They are all made by the same OEM, basically identical internally
.
Sounds like an interesting test ... Can you furnish a link or source for this information? Thanks.
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Old August 15, 2018, 07:31 AM   #38
buckey
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You guy's have already taught me more about RD's then I ever would have found out about on my own! Again, Thank You very much! Other then the Aimpoint being a very good #1 choice how do you rank the Sig Romeo 4, the Holosun RD and the Primaryarms RD's. One better the the other or just a crap shoot depending on the color of the box?
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Old August 15, 2018, 09:15 AM   #39
marine6680
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I can't dig up the link right now, but it is available on ar15dotcom.

I think they did two rounds of testing, with various optics in each test. It's also a bit of a hard read, as they break down the info in a less than straight forward manner, and you can tell it wasn't done by people of particular scientific mindset or training. They did try to make it consistent and as valid as they could. (I still can't get over them including like 8 significant digits in the moa figures... 0.00000001 moa is an extremely small amount, at best the human eye could work at 0.1moa differences... And I had a few other issues with methodology, but on the whole it's not bad, and they did do the community a service)

Right now, if you don't see yourself saving up for the PRO...

I suggest the PA RDS with rotary onob control. They took efforts to increase the overall robustness of the whole optic. From a stronger erector setup, to potting the dot emitter.

The Romeo 5 is much like the older PA sight, and the current lower cost Holosun options.

I don't know anything about the internals of the Romeo 4 series, if there is or is not any significant difference between it and the Romeo 5 as far as internals.

When it comes to an optical with battery like measured at 50k hours, extra features like solar power and automatic shutoff and power up from motion detection, really are not needed. They are just extra bits that may fail.

I have heard stories of the cheaper motion detection optics failing to register movement and ceasing to function properly.


If you can't keep a spare battery on hand, then something is wrong... They cost a couple bucks at the store, and have a shelf life of 10years... Swap batteries every year for insurance and keep a battery tucked away just in case.


In the end... If the difference between a lower cost optic and saving up for a PRO is only a few months, I say wait.

If it doesn't seem like you could manage that, the PA is my recommendation as I said.

If you get backup irons, which is a good idea, no need in anything expensive. The regular Magpul MBUS are a solid choice for around $75 for the set. (The MBUS Pro are my choice, and about twice the cost of the MBUS... There are fakes of the MBUS stuff out there, so buy from a reputable dealer, Primary Arms frequently has the MBUS on sale)

Last edited by marine6680; August 15, 2018 at 09:28 AM.
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Old August 15, 2018, 10:28 AM   #40
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I'm thinking your right.
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Old August 17, 2018, 07:58 AM   #41
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Warranty? I have the Sig Romeo4C, is my first red dot so can't tell you how it compares to others but...has lifetime warranty. My understanding is if anything ever happens to it, Sig will repair or replace for free. Not sure if the other companies offer same warranty.
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Old August 17, 2018, 08:42 AM   #42
marine6680
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Aimpoint is lifetime, and the new PA RDS is lifetime as well.
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Old August 20, 2018, 09:58 AM   #43
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Was this the AR15.com thread ?

( Link to the report in the first post )

https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Re...lts/18-714950/

Last edited by bfoosh006; August 20, 2018 at 10:04 AM.
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Old August 20, 2018, 10:41 AM   #44
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I believe so, just took a quick look at the first post.

You have to download the results from Dropbox or something, as they do the have them in the thread. So if there is a link to the info, then that is probably the correct thread.
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