Navy Pepperbox at EMF - Page 2

Doc Hoy · July 5, 2011, 02:40 AM

Yes.

I had one of the 12" barrel jobs. It was referred to as a "Ballister", a name which I have not been able to figure out. I think I remember reading that there was a designer named "Ballister" on Colt's staff but I was not able to connect that person with a long barrel version of the 1851. It was a brass frame revolver and I did not buy it as a set with the other two barrels.

It was not very well put together. The finish on the steel parts should have been more thoroughly polished before bluing. Fit was okay and the action worked fine. It had a defect in that the barrel was noticably bent. (A metal cooling issue, I think) I straightened the barrel until the bend was not perceptible. The pistol also had a wooden grip that was made of the most disgusting blond colored wood. No attempt to stain the wood was made.

I did not like the pistol and it went with the sale of my first accumulation of black powder firearms which occured at the urging of my first (and thankfully ex) wife. I should have kept the pistols and divorced the wife which eventually happened far too late.

Lou G. · September 17, 2011, 08:17 AM

Although not well known, there are historical precedents for EMF's "1851 Pepperbox." The prototype was based on an original found in Canada by Herb Houze, the Colt/Winchester authority (author of "Samuel Colt: Arms, Art, and Invention," etc.) He described it as a Colt M1860 Army frame, mated with a pepperbox barrel cluster of the Blunt & Syms type, about five inches long. Its present location is unknown, but other handguns of the same general pattern exist. One of them, a double-action percussion Bentley, with a revolver-style frame and a typical pepperbox barrel cluster, is shown on Plate 11 of W. C. Dowell's "The Webley Story," and there are undoubtedly others.

(Pic of the Bentley attached; you may have to scroll all the way down to see it.)

hoof hearted · December 22, 2011, 08:30 PM

I have been working with Walt and Boyd at EMF regarding these Pepperbox revolvers. We have plans that go far beyond the prototype that ya'll have seen pictured on their website.

The history goes like this: Based on the above mentioned marriage of a Pepperbox cylinder and a Colt frame, Boud wanted to market a new revolver. The cylinders are being manufactured stateside (not in Italy) and the pictured pistol is just a "Hartford" model 1851 with the arbor tapped for the screw assembly that hold the Pepperbox cylinder on. The screw supports the end of the cylinder by the means of a shouldered bore in the cylinder and is LH threaded. These are bored .386/.387 and are meant to use a patched ball and yes thery are smooth bored. The alignment pins on the front of the frame (which pull right out) have been left in place because they intend to sell this as a "set" having the stock 1851 barrel included.

The Pepperbox (the prototype from their website) arrived today from Boyd and Walt at EMF. Please excuse the cell phone pictures........

The picture above shows the size next to an 1851 sized pistol that was laying on the bench.

This shows the business end.

Here is a shot showing the attachment of the cylinder. Pretty well thought out and LH threaded so it will stay tight.

You can see that there is a shouldered bolt to help support the weight of the cylinder.

You can see that the cylinder is well made.

bedbugbilly · December 22, 2011, 10:14 PM

I thought I recognized this thread and then I looked at the OPs starter thread and saw that it's the same one from last March.

Interesting information on this "marriage" but I'd be interested in knowing what this is going to sell for? The pepperbox cylinder certainly can't be cheap to manufacture and I have to wonder what market you are aiming this for?

I'm really not trying to be a "wet blanket" and as they say, "different strokes for different folks" but #1, it's not historically close to anything that was ever manugactured and #2, as a shooter, I don't see where it is anything but a "up close" weapon. If it is aimed at the reenactment crowd, it's about as "farby" as you can get. I would think that a few might be sold for those that "must have" and because it's a "curiosity".

I would think that if a company were to start to reproduce an accurate copy of a "true" pepperbox such as an Allen & Thurber, that they would find a market with not only reenactors but the shooting crowd as well. Myself, I might purchase one of those but if I were to buy one of these "marriages", I'm afraid that it would soon be relegated to the safe along with my hand held Gattling Gun and my semi-automatic 10 pound Parrott Rifle.

On the serious side, I do hope you'll keep us posted on this project and what the market objectives are and what the cost of this "set" will be. Thanks.

hoof hearted · December 22, 2011, 11:14 PM

Bedbug

I am really not the one to speak with regarding price. That would be EMF....

While I certainly understand your points above, EMF does feel they have a market and the interest as the SASS convention gave them that feeling. I have been monitoring the forums regarding peoples thoughts on this and the 15 or so negative (users not post count) remarks are surely not enough to discourage the company from this endeavour.

As a gunsmith who works on and builds cartridge conversion revolvers I have seen, held, worked on and own almost everything that WAS and the pool is small. I for one enjoy the things that weren't or COULD be and find them just as fascinating.

You know EMF had a sister company (I just found this out talking with Walt there today) that made blank firing guns. I thought to myself, why would anyone buy one of those? Surely there is no market for those? Well guess what, they sell like hotcakes...........guess us experts aren't always right. Naysayers.........thank god Henry Ford, and the rest of the great innovators didn't take their comments to heart!

Doc Hoy · December 23, 2011, 06:25 AM

....Let me mention this.

About 35 years ago I bought a .44 in Brass frame 1851 pattern with a 12 or 12.5 inch barrel.

It was sold with the name "Ballister". I mail ordered it at a time when EMF had the best prices.So I probably got it from EMF.

What do you know about the name "Ballister"?

Also

Did you notice the cartouche on the grip? What is that all about on this revolver?

hoof hearted · December 23, 2011, 09:21 AM

Doc

The cartouche is there because the specs for EMF's current "Hartford" models from Italy call for it and that's all that this is (they plan to sell you a complete 1851 and this pepperbox assembly as a "set").

I have no inside info on the "Ballister" model but would assume that it is named that in reference to a cross bow........

Doc Hoy · December 23, 2011, 10:46 AM

Welcome to the forum.

When I bought the Ballister, which BTW was the worst pistol I ever held in my hand, there was a passing mention IIRC to someone who was associated with the design, either of an original idea or of the replica (and I use the term loosely).

Mine was .44, brass frame, had a hideous blonde colored grip and the barrel was noticably bent. Yes, that is right....bent.

Other stuff I bought from EMF was of good quality but this pistol was a piece of meat.

This was 1971 to 1980 when I was stationed in Hawaii and Guam. Only way to get stuff was to mail order and the best source was the advertisers in Shotgun News. EMF almost always had a full page ad and very reasonable prices. That is where the Ballister came from.

It was pointless to return the pistol since it took six weeks for it to arrive in the first place. I made some replacement grips from Mahogany and straightened the barrel and held onto the pistol until about 1985 when I sold all of my black powder stuff because of problem with my thankfully ex-wife.

I have mentioned this revolver several time but have never had anyone who told me he was familiar with it associated with the name "Ballister"

Reference to the crossbow based weapon is as good as any idea.

hoof hearted · December 23, 2011, 06:51 PM

Thanks for the welcome Doc!

You probably know that I have been a long time contributor at the Cascity forums as well as a Cartridge Conversion gunsmith for close to 30 years (OK really IPSC, then SAA, then Conversions). I have started exploring these other forums as of late because the "experts" have taken over on the forums at Cascity.

It is true that Pietta's quality has come up a lot in recent years and EMF (Boyd Davis) is probably the biggest influence there. Sorry to hear of your bad experience although I have had many from many differnt manufacturers. I have even bought 30 thousand dollar POS cars!

I welcome any new item that is related to the genre that I explore (transitional firearms) and really have some cool ideas for these pepperboxes.

Here is a link to the latest "Avenging Angel" I built:
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/ind...c,40861.0.html

Lou G. · April 21, 2012, 04:59 PM

For those who may not have seen it, there's an interesting one-of-a-kind percussion pepperbox on Norm Flayderman's website (#R316)---four-shot barrel cluster three inches long, .46 caliber, manually rotated, with an iron frame and center hammer. Apparently a professional job. These one-of-a-kind pieces seem to show up with reasonably frequency.

hoof hearted · April 22, 2012, 10:17 PM

Well the "Pepperbox" conversion from EMF turned into one of those "pipe dreams"..........I bought the one I photographed and posted here for a princely sum even for a "dealer" price.

Seems they were just poking at me when they spoke of a large contract to make a new firearm for the masses!

I still have plans for this one when I get time to work on my own projects.

July 5, 2011, 02:40 AM	#26
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	BPRevolver Yes. I had one of the 12" barrel jobs. It was referred to as a "Ballister", a name which I have not been able to figure out. I think I remember reading that there was a designer named "Ballister" on Colt's staff but I was not able to connect that person with a long barrel version of the 1851. It was a brass frame revolver and I did not buy it as a set with the other two barrels. It was not very well put together. The finish on the steel parts should have been more thoroughly polished before bluing. Fit was okay and the action worked fine. It had a defect in that the barrel was noticably bent. (A metal cooling issue, I think) I straightened the barrel until the bend was not perceptible. The pistol also had a wooden grip that was made of the most disgusting blond colored wood. No attempt to stain the wood was made. I did not like the pistol and it went with the sale of my first accumulation of black powder firearms which occured at the urging of my first (and thankfully ex) wife. I should have kept the pistols and divorced the wife which eventually happened far too late. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

December 22, 2011, 10:14 PM	#29
bedbugbilly Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Posts: 3,287	I thought I recognized this thread and then I looked at the OPs starter thread and saw that it's the same one from last March. Interesting information on this "marriage" but I'd be interested in knowing what this is going to sell for? The pepperbox cylinder certainly can't be cheap to manufacture and I have to wonder what market you are aiming this for? I'm really not trying to be a "wet blanket" and as they say, "different strokes for different folks" but #1, it's not historically close to anything that was ever manugactured and #2, as a shooter, I don't see where it is anything but a "up close" weapon. If it is aimed at the reenactment crowd, it's about as "farby" as you can get. I would think that a few might be sold for those that "must have" and because it's a "curiosity". I would think that if a company were to start to reproduce an accurate copy of a "true" pepperbox such as an Allen & Thurber, that they would find a market with not only reenactors but the shooting crowd as well. Myself, I might purchase one of those but if I were to buy one of these "marriages", I'm afraid that it would soon be relegated to the safe along with my hand held Gattling Gun and my semi-automatic 10 pound Parrott Rifle. On the serious side, I do hope you'll keep us posted on this project and what the market objectives are and what the cost of this "set" will be. Thanks. __________________ If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63

December 23, 2011, 06:25 AM	#31
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	BPREVOLVER..While you are here.... ....Let me mention this. About 35 years ago I bought a .44 in Brass frame 1851 pattern with a 12 or 12.5 inch barrel. It was sold with the name "Ballister". I mail ordered it at a time when EMF had the best prices.So I probably got it from EMF. What do you know about the name "Ballister"? Also Did you notice the cartouche on the grip? What is that all about on this revolver? __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

December 23, 2011, 10:46 AM	#33
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Hoof Welcome to the forum. When I bought the Ballister, which BTW was the worst pistol I ever held in my hand, there was a passing mention IIRC to someone who was associated with the design, either of an original idea or of the replica (and I use the term loosely). Mine was .44, brass frame, had a hideous blonde colored grip and the barrel was noticably bent. Yes, that is right....bent. Other stuff I bought from EMF was of good quality but this pistol was a piece of meat. This was 1971 to 1980 when I was stationed in Hawaii and Guam. Only way to get stuff was to mail order and the best source was the advertisers in Shotgun News. EMF almost always had a full page ad and very reasonable prices. That is where the Ballister came from. It was pointless to return the pistol since it took six weeks for it to arrive in the first place. I made some replacement grips from Mahogany and straightened the barrel and held onto the pistol until about 1985 when I sold all of my black powder stuff because of problem with my thankfully ex-wife. I have mentioned this revolver several time but have never had anyone who told me he was familiar with it associated with the name "Ballister" Reference to the crossbow based weapon is as good as any idea. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath. Last edited by Doc Hoy; December 23, 2011 at 10:54 AM.

April 21, 2012, 04:59 PM	#35
Lou G. Junior Member Join Date: September 17, 2011 Posts: 7	Unusual Pepperboxes For those who may not have seen it, there's an interesting one-of-a-kind percussion pepperbox on Norm Flayderman's website (#R316)---four-shot barrel cluster three inches long, .46 caliber, manually rotated, with an iron frame and center hammer. Apparently a professional job. These one-of-a-kind pieces seem to show up with reasonably frequency.

December 22, 2011, 08:30 PM	#28
hoof hearted Member Join Date: December 21, 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 61	I have been working with Walt and Boyd at EMF regarding these Pepperbox revolvers. We have plans that go far beyond the prototype that ya'll have seen pictured on their website. The history goes like this: Based on the above mentioned marriage of a Pepperbox cylinder and a Colt frame, Boud wanted to market a new revolver. The cylinders are being manufactured stateside (not in Italy) and the pictured pistol is just a "Hartford" model 1851 with the arbor tapped for the screw assembly that hold the Pepperbox cylinder on. The screw supports the end of the cylinder by the means of a shouldered bore in the cylinder and is LH threaded. These are bored .386/.387 and are meant to use a patched ball and yes thery are smooth bored. The alignment pins on the front of the frame (which pull right out) have been left in place because they intend to sell this as a "set" having the stock 1851 barrel included. The Pepperbox (the prototype from their website) arrived today from Boyd and Walt at EMF. Please excuse the cell phone pictures........ The picture above shows the size next to an 1851 sized pistol that was laying on the bench. This shows the business end. Here is a shot showing the attachment of the cylinder. Pretty well thought out and LH threaded so it will stay tight. You can see that there is a shouldered bolt to help support the weight of the cylinder. You can see that the cylinder is well made.

December 22, 2011, 11:14 PM	#30
hoof hearted Member Join Date: December 21, 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 61	Bedbug I am really not the one to speak with regarding price. That would be EMF.... While I certainly understand your points above, EMF does feel they have a market and the interest as the SASS convention gave them that feeling. I have been monitoring the forums regarding peoples thoughts on this and the 15 or so negative (users not post count) remarks are surely not enough to discourage the company from this endeavour. As a gunsmith who works on and builds cartridge conversion revolvers I have seen, held, worked on and own almost everything that WAS and the pool is small. I for one enjoy the things that weren't or COULD be and find them just as fascinating. You know EMF had a sister company (I just found this out talking with Walt there today) that made blank firing guns. I thought to myself, why would anyone buy one of those? Surely there is no market for those? Well guess what, they sell like hotcakes...........guess us experts aren't always right. Naysayers.........thank god Henry Ford, and the rest of the great innovators didn't take their comments to heart!

December 23, 2011, 09:21 AM	#32
hoof hearted Member Join Date: December 21, 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 61	Doc The cartouche is there because the specs for EMF's current "Hartford" models from Italy call for it and that's all that this is (they plan to sell you a complete 1851 and this pepperbox assembly as a "set"). I have no inside info on the "Ballister" model but would assume that it is named that in reference to a cross bow........

December 23, 2011, 06:51 PM	#34
hoof hearted Member Join Date: December 21, 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 61	Thanks for the welcome Doc! You probably know that I have been a long time contributor at the Cascity forums as well as a Cartridge Conversion gunsmith for close to 30 years (OK really IPSC, then SAA, then Conversions). I have started exploring these other forums as of late because the "experts" have taken over on the forums at Cascity. It is true that Pietta's quality has come up a lot in recent years and EMF (Boyd Davis) is probably the biggest influence there. Sorry to hear of your bad experience although I have had many from many differnt manufacturers. I have even bought 30 thousand dollar POS cars! I welcome any new item that is related to the genre that I explore (transitional firearms) and really have some cool ideas for these pepperboxes. Here is a link to the latest "Avenging Angel" I built: http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/ind...c,40861.0.html

April 22, 2012, 10:17 PM	#36
hoof hearted Member Join Date: December 21, 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 61	Well the "Pepperbox" conversion from EMF turned into one of those "pipe dreams"..........I bought the one I photographed and posted here for a princely sum even for a "dealer" price. Seems they were just poking at me when they spoke of a large contract to make a new firearm for the masses! I still have plans for this one when I get time to work on my own projects. __________________ http://www.cartridgeconversion.com https://www.facebook.com/cartridgeconversion/ https://www.facebook.com/thuerconversion/