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Old June 13, 2021, 12:30 PM   #101
Tom Servo
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Yep, because the idea of a reliable, practical automatic that fires Magnum ammunition is still something of a pipe dream.
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Old June 13, 2021, 12:56 PM   #102
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you just had to include "practical" didn't ya!

Practical is going to mean something different to every different shooter. Practical for hunting? Practical for duty wear? Practical for concealed carry? ALL different things, and NO one gun does them all perfectly.

I have a Coonan .357 Magnum. The gun I have is 1/8" longer and 1/4" taller than a standard Colt Govt Model. (I have other magnum semis that are considerably larger.) Still, some might find this size practical, and other's will not.

Personally, I find the entire question of "relevant" to be a matter of "fashion" and popularity, not a matter of practical use or utility.

Whatever I have in my hands when the need arises is "relevant". What more needs be said?
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Old June 13, 2021, 01:50 PM   #103
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I’m going to call out KYJim’s graphics as potentially misleading and show you what immediately tipped me off.

The big clue when looking at graphs is to know the vertical and horizontal axis.
Vertical axis is “percent of gun sales” and there IS NO horizontal axis! WOA!

Using his color code method, we can just reassign the colors and “show” the graph rising! After checking his colors, he’s not fooling us there. Maybe he just doesn’t know how to make his spreadsheet do a graph.

Then I looked at the axis. In general, zero should always be shown. In the case of years, that’s not practical for many reasons, but going back to around 1890 would be good. My thought on that is to go back to when revolvers were 100% of the market and NOW let’s look.

Well, we don’t have that data. Let’s look and see if the data is actually answering our question. Is percent of sales the same as relevance? Hmmm.

Then, because Jim’s post is legit (unless he fudged the data) we can look at how many revolvers were sold.

AHA! It seems like more revolvers are being made then ever!

It seems like semi auto sales are through the roof! Well yes, but revolver sales are rising too! It seems if something was irrelevant -like buggy whips- total sales would be near zero.

Jim is to be commended for including his data as he did! It’s one mark of a serious attempt to communicate instead of simply manipulate data to Gin up a talking point!
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Old June 14, 2021, 02:04 PM   #104
KyJim
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Quote:
potentially misleading and show you what immediately tipped me off.

The big clue when looking at graphs is to know the vertical and horizontal axis.
Vertical axis is “percent of gun sales” and there IS NO horizontal axis! WOA!
The .jpg file I inserted is a graph and it has is a horizontal axis. It's called a bar graph. Instead of numbers and a line graph, it uses color-coded bars with the colors clearly labeled by year. I'm sorry you can't understand a bar graph.

Quote:
using his color code method, we can just reassign the colors and “show” the graph rising!
No, you can't. Not unless you change the years assigned to each color (at the bottom of the graph). Otherwise, you would be falsifying data.

Quote:
Is percent of sales the same as relevance?
No, it's not. I never claimed it is. It is, however, one objective fact we can weigh on the relevance issue. If revolvers got down to say 0.5% of pistol/handgun manufactured, one could make a more forceful argument revolvers were irrelevant, even if the actual number of revolvers manufactured had increased.

Quote:
Then, because Jim’s post is legit (unless he fudged the data) we can look at how many revolvers were sold.
You then say total revolver sales have increased, but that is only partially true. The data in the table shows total revolvers manufactured went up in some years and down in others, depending upon the years compared. But that's also true of total pistol/revolvers manufactured, so that his why I compared revolvers manufactured to the total pistol/revolver manufacturing data. I think it is a better, though imperfect, reflection of interest in revolvers.

And please, don't intimate I might have fudged data. I mentioned in my post I had obtained the numbers on guns manufactured (not sales) from the ATF and I used all the data available on their website. You can find it yourself at https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/data-statistics.
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Old June 14, 2021, 02:49 PM   #105
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you just had to include "practical" didn't ya!
Oh, I stepped in it, didn't I?

I love the IDEA of the Coonan, and I think it comes closest to an automatic that will reliably feed Magnum loads. But with a revolver, I don't have to switch springs to go between full-house .357s and mild .38s.
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Old June 14, 2021, 05:36 PM   #106
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Nothing is relevant and then everything is relevant!
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Old June 15, 2021, 04:01 AM   #107
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If you like them, you like them. That's a thing.

Beyond that, revolvers are definitely the way to go for high power. They can also be a great choice for pocket carry. For instance, I find the LCR to be more comfortable and easier to use from a pocket holster than the 9mm polymer subcompacts.

People sometimes knock it but I consider .327 Federal the cutting edge of revolver technology. The 85-grain loads offer excellent performance from the six-shot LCR. Achieving that performance from the short barrel, doing so with relatively light recoil on a light frame, and bumping capacity up to six for that frame size all add up to something special. Sadly, it came about as revolvers were falling out of favor and faced a number of other unfortunate circumstances.
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Old June 15, 2021, 04:11 AM   #108
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"Yep, because the idea of a reliable, practical automatic that fires Magnum ammunition is still something of a pipe dream".(TS)

The Glock 20 in 10mm with hot loads comes pretty close. Hence its popularity in Alaska.
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Old June 15, 2021, 07:41 AM   #109
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""Yep, because the idea of a reliable, practical automatic that fires Magnum ammunition is still something of a pipe dream".(TS)

The Glock 20 in 10mm with hot loads comes pretty close. Hence its popularity in Alaska. "


.38 Super comes close to .357 in some loadings...

.357 Sig was developed to emulate the Remington 125-gr. JHP .357 Mag. round...

Those are just two of quite a few semi-auto rounds that approach magnum power.

BUTBUTBUT!!! IT'S GOTTA HAVE A RIM TO BE A MAGNUM!

Sure. Whatever.
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Old June 15, 2021, 08:15 AM   #110
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The Rough Rider might sell the most because of a US only gun problem where cheap guns are low cost purchases for crime, hence it not being allowed in some states due to melting point laws (IL/MI).

I bet the LCP outsells every j-frame handgun each year. That might be an actual fact, not an attack on a revolver.
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Old June 15, 2021, 08:33 AM   #111
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"I bet the LCP outsells every j-frame handgun each year. That might be an actual fact, not an attack on a revolver."

I have no doubt that many of the small/micro semi-autos outsell their revolver counterparts every year.

But that, again, doesn't make the revolver irrelevant, useless, outdated, outmoded, worthless, or any of the other equally stupid assumptions/assertions/insinuations that have been made here and elsewhere.
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Old June 15, 2021, 08:48 AM   #112
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The one time I got to shoot the LAR Grizzly in 45 Win Mag, I found it surprisingly manageable and great fun. I almost bought one, but deferred for fear my Redhawk would get depressed thinking it had become irrelevant (the fact I was short on cash at the time had absolutely nothing to do with it). And guess which one has more readily available ammo today? Well, OK, neither of them right on this particular day, but you know what I mean.
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Old June 15, 2021, 07:48 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Irwin View Post
"I bet the LCP outsells every j-frame handgun each year. That might be an actual fact, not an attack on a revolver."

I have no doubt that many of the small/micro semi-autos outsell their revolver counterparts every year.

But that, again, doesn't make the revolver irrelevant, useless, outdated, outmoded, worthless, or any of the other equally stupid assumptions/assertions/insinuations that have been made here and elsewhere.
Let's not forget that the LCP also costs a lot less than a comparable revolver. While prices can vary by region, store, panic status, etc...

MSRP for Basic LCP = $309
MSRP for Basic LCR = $699
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Old June 16, 2021, 07:03 AM   #114
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I mentioned the disparity of price point in an earlier message in this thread. I think out of everything, it's that that has the most potential to damage defensive revolver sales long term.
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Old June 16, 2021, 08:15 AM   #115
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I missed that. That is a good point.

But a 442 is like $420? Just a few $20s under a P365, number one gun seller of last two years.

But agreed. The autos tend to be cheaper. A 686/GP100 price tag gets you any non competition or non HK auto.
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Old June 16, 2021, 09:02 AM   #116
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They would be instantly relevant if used in a self defense situation.
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Old June 16, 2021, 09:53 AM   #117
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As I said before. With a semiauto you can have more capacity, less weight or smaller size, but you will never have the reliability of a revolver, and to me, in a self defense situation, this quality is by far on top of the list.
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Old June 16, 2021, 01:21 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Irwin View Post
I mentioned the disparity of price point in an earlier message in this thread. I think out of everything, it's that that has the most potential to damage defensive revolver sales long term.
I do not think it is price as much as it is trigger. The New Shooter does not want to take the time to learn a DA or DAO. Most shooters in general shoot very little. And when they do, they target shoot the guns. And I believe they will go with the so called "most popular" which is generated by massive advertising. The Ruger LCP IMO was the most popular gun sold for years and maybe still is. But is it the best? Persoanlly I do not believe the gun was a good firearm or any small 380 for 80% of the population. But it was a easy sell. Small and cute. Small 380's are Great, but require a lot of range time to get there.
The most popular in reality does not mean the best gun nor the best quality. Many Popular guns are easy to sale, especially with inflated perceptions of ability and capability that are not required.
There will always be the experienced gun enthusiast that recognizes the Revolver as a fantastic EDC etc. Many shooters do not get this right away, but will learn so in later years provided they become Gun enthusiast rather than just monthly target shooters.
As I have said, If the Gun Gods only gave me a 5 shot Snubbie, it would not bother me one single bit. And more than enough load capacity for EDC.
Not to mention they are FUN as hell to shoot.
Fads come and go, they revolver does not need a fad. It just speaks for itself like it has done for so many years.

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Old June 16, 2021, 02:06 PM   #119
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I tend to agree. At most of the CCW qualifications I've attended, the revolvers make up from 10 percent to 20 percent at the most out of 25 to 35 attendents.

Most of the revolver shooters are rank beginners but then sprinkled in there are a few more advance shooters. The beginner shooters have problems with thrown shots due to trigger control, but the advance revolver shooters shooting DA tend to outshoot most of the semi auto guys who are mostly in the middle. Not to say there are a few good semi shooters.

We are required to shoot DA only with DA/SA revolvers.
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Old June 16, 2021, 05:53 PM   #120
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Quote:
I tend to agree. At most of the CCW qualifications I've attended, the revolvers make up from 10 percent to 20 percent at the most out of 25 to 35 attendents.

Most of the revolver shooters are rank beginners but then sprinkled in there are a few more advance shooters. The beginner shooters have problems with thrown shots due to trigger control, but the advance revolver shooters shooting DA tend to outshoot most of the semi auto guys who are mostly in the middle. Not to say there are a few good semi shooters.

We are required to shoot DA only with DA/SA revolvers.
At a Canadian qualification for a wilderness handgun carry permit (ATC) we required 75 rounds. Most fired DA.

I brought 2 boxes of cowboy action .45 Colt for my Ruger Super Redhawk .454 Casull. The instructor asked if I planned to qualify and then carry with that. I said "Yes, 300 grains at 900 fps is plenty for griz at 10 yards.".

I aced the qualification.............
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Old June 16, 2021, 09:15 PM   #121
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I am one of a few disagreeing with the question.

Size wise, auto wins.
Cost, auto wins.
Caliber they are equal in 357 Gold Dot vs 9mm HST. If not 9mm better as the 9mm is moving substantially slower. (luckygunner 38/357 test vs 9mm test. 9mm HST bests most of the 4" barrel revolver penetration/expansion)

I don't think the question is framed in a relevant manner cause we're all going to buy what we want.

Biggest issue I'm taking is the assumption here being said that a revolver (once chambered) is safer than a chambered auto. Well, both are going to fire when chambered. In fact, an auto will never fire until chambered with a million trigger pulls. A chambered revolver will fire.

Second issue is reliability. Not sure I agree at all. With a cran, forcing cone, main string, extraction star, transfer bar breaks (looking at your Ruger and your million google posts about it), screw, rod, timing...that a revolver will always work is probably stretching it. More so than an auto, I would still disagree. The P3AT "pocket lint" failure days are well over a decade old by now. I'm betting a j-frame is going to get shot out of time requiring actual work long before an auto goes down for actual work.

But meh. Options for sure.

J-frames are an orange in my pocket, no matter the weight.
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Old June 16, 2021, 09:28 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Mike Irwin View Post
.38 Super comes close to .357 in some loadings...

.357 Sig was developed to emulate the Remington 125-gr. JHP .357 Mag. round...

Those are just two of quite a few semi-auto rounds that approach magnum power.
If you handload, the 38 Super will equal the 357 Magnum with 125 grain bullets. (1,450 fps)

A factory 9X23 Winchester will equal a 357 Mag with 125 grain bullets.

The 357 SIG gets close to 357 Mag in barrels of the same length, but is about 100 fps slower with 125 grain bullets. That said, the SIG bullets might be equally effective as the revolver bullets.
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Old June 17, 2021, 07:11 AM   #123
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"I do not think it is price as much as it is trigger. "

I think you're overestimating the basic cheapness of the typical American. There's a vast majority of new, first-time firearms owners over the last decade, probably far more than at any point in our history. These people either have no familiarity, or only passing familiarity, with firearms and are depending on recommendations they get from friends, websites like TFL, salespeople at the gun store, etc. And to a very large degree, what they're seeing and hearing is "buy a semi-automatic" (which I think is generally a poor recommendation, but that's another argument).

So, once they get that in their heads, the question becomes... WHICH semi-auto? And that's where price starts to kick in...

Well, this semi is the same size as that one, both have the same number of rounds, but this one is HALF the price of the other one. It doesn't doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out which one has the big advantage there.

I spent a couple of years behind the counter at a large and active gunshop back in the 1990s when the "assault weapons" ban, combined with the high cap magazine ban, caused another massive run of first-time buyers for all things guns.

First time buyers looking to get ahead of the ban weren't mulling over the nuances of triggers. The prevailing question we got was I need a good, but cheap, gun. What do you recommend.

I don't see it being any different today.
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Old June 17, 2021, 07:14 AM   #124
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"J-frames are an orange in my pocket, no matter the weight."

Stop wearing those painted on jeans. On some people they're a fashion statement.

On you? A fashion crime against humanity.
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Old June 17, 2021, 11:38 AM   #125
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If you handload, the 38 Super will equal the 357 Magnum with 125 grain bullets. (1,450 fps)
No, sorry, it won't. Equal the .357 Magnum, that is. You may get 1,450fps with a 125gr, .38 Super, but the .357 will do more than that, lots more...

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