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Old May 22, 2021, 02:39 PM   #26
kilotanker22
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I checked the seating stem. The die I am using is the Forster Bench rest die. The depth on the inside of the seating stem is .950". The Ogive radius, (from bearing surface of bullet to tip) is approximately .750". Where the stem contacts the Ogive is forward of the bearing surface by a little way. I think it is safe to say that I am not seating from the tip.

However I did find something else. Inside of the seating stem there looked like a small burr or another piece of some sort of metal. I used my VLD chamfer tool and a cleaning brush to remove it.

I will test this again later when I have time to load ammo
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Old May 23, 2021, 09:47 AM   #27
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I have yet to see any good reviews on those 145's, there was a long thread on them on AS awhile back

140's are great though if you can find some
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Old May 23, 2021, 04:21 PM   #28
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If I wasn't happy with a bullet....I wouldn't use it. It's as simple as that.
If I suspected the bullets were out of spec, I'd return them.
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Old May 23, 2021, 09:14 PM   #29
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Don't forget, he had good results with it initially. That's why he bought a pile of them. The trick is figuring out what's different now. If the point is not bottoming out in the seating stem, the next thing I would do is use the seating stem as the comparator bushing and measure cartridges with it and the caliper to see if the base-to-seating-stem contact distance is consistent.
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Old May 24, 2021, 05:07 AM   #30
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That is a great Idea Unclenick. I will definitely try that
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Old May 26, 2021, 02:58 PM   #31
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So after Cleaning that seating stem (chamfering and degreasing), My problem seems to have resolved itself.

While loading some ammunition this week I saw less than .001" variation in my CBTO measurement. I measured all 50 of the cartridges I loaded.

Unclenick was correct that the bullet base to ogive variation wouldn't matter and would simply be pushed into the case during the seating operation.

The following is a group fired this morning using the same lot of 50 bullets that had the variations in my opening post. I shot ten, three shot groups that look just like this one. This is the only one I measured cause I had to get to work and did not have a great deal of time.

These results make me wonder if whatever was in that seating stem was throwing off my concentricity and that was the cause for going from .25-.3 moa up to 1 moa?
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File Type: jpg 188250974_1164795104038946_9036984440369228777_n.jpg (304.4 KB, 16 views)
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Old May 26, 2021, 05:32 PM   #32
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These results make me wonder if whatever was in that seating stem was throwing off my concentricity and that was the cause for going from .25-.3 moa up to 1 moa?
interesting. After reading this I took my Frankford Armory seater and used a bit of hot glue to stick a piece of brass shaving into one of the seating stems to try and duplicate your theory. With ten dummy rounds it caused the base to meplat measurements of the loaded rounds to be off by .001 - .002. After pulling, the bullets base to meplats turned out to be off by .001 - .002 which leads me to believe that the seating stem was hitting the meplat rather than the ogive of the bullet. Concentricity was not affected at all however, and all ten measured within .0015 or less.

Nice three shot group however, and it is good that someone can get those 145's to group
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Old May 27, 2021, 04:31 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by hounddawg View Post
interesting. After reading this I took my Frankford Armory seater and used a bit of hot glue to stick a piece of brass shaving into one of the seating stems to try and duplicate your theory. With ten dummy rounds it caused the base to meplat measurements of the loaded rounds to be off by .001 - .002. After pulling, the bullets base to meplats turned out to be off by .001 - .002 which leads me to believe that the seating stem was hitting the meplat rather than the ogive of the bullet. Concentricity was not affected at all however, and all ten measured within .0015 or less.

Nice three shot group however, and it is good that someone can get those 145's to group
Interesting. I really do not know what my problem was now. I guess it is possible that there is something I have over looked. I did take the die apart and clean the entire die when I removed the seating stem. After which the problem went away. I will continue to check for that problem and see if it returns. If so, maybe I can find the cause.
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Old May 27, 2021, 04:37 PM   #34
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Nice three shot group however, and it is good that someone can get those 145's to group
I have had the best results close to the lands with this bullet. I have had excellent results with Hodgdon's published max load for the 147 grain ELDM and H-4350. That load seems to shoot every bullet from 140-150 grains very well in every Creedmoor rifle I have tried it in. This includes two of my own rifles and a dozen or so other rifles. Barrel lengths from 20-26 inches.
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Old May 27, 2021, 04:48 PM   #35
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my distance to the lands is varying by as much as .008".
from your first post, .008 is enough to cause major grouping issues


my guess, and the key word there is guess, is that the dirty seater was seating off the ogive and the gunk was shifting or maybe the lock ring not tight enough or something else was causing this.

Anyway grats on getting it straightened out. Post some pics of some 5 - 10 shot groups at longer ranges when and if you can. I like Barnes myself and had good luck so far with the 6.5/140's and 6mm 107's but you are the first to post good things about the 145's. What velocities are they liking?
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Old May 27, 2021, 04:56 PM   #36
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I am launching these at average velocity of 2796, ES 20, SD 5.8. That is from a 15 round string I shot the other day when playing with my new tuner brake.

Edit: I am using CCI 450 primers and Lapua brass
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Old May 27, 2021, 05:04 PM   #37
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I will get some 10 shot groups in this weekend if I can find the time. Where I shoot is always windy and limited to 300 yards. I will get groups at 100 and 300 yards.
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Old May 27, 2021, 06:52 PM   #38
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Larger groups are important if you record the location of every single bullet hole. Then you can use Excel or a calculator and a piece of paper to work out the center and radial standard deviation numbers. However, if you measure group diameter as in the photo, there is a point at seven shots, beyond which increasing the number of shots increases the likelihood of getting an outlier more than it increases the "typicalness" of the group, skewing the results. To get the most information from group diameters in the fewest total shots, fire six or more seven-shot groups and average their diameters. Five shot groups also work pretty well for this, but you want at least ten of them. The explanation for all this is in this article.

Congrats on getting the issue resolved. I wish we could go back and compare the troublesome loads with the good ones via every possible measurement. However, since cleaning the die helped, you've found out that oil and factory dirt or other contaminants can mess with a precision seating die. I've had that experience with a Redding Competition Seating Die. My .308 Win copy didn't seat particularly better than any other die until one day I pulled it all apart, soaked its parts in Naphtha, dried them, and then put a super-thin lubricating layer on the (Sprinco Plate+ Silver). After that, everything I seated with it had half a thousandth runout or less as long as the case walls weren't grossly uneven in thickness at the neck.
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Old May 27, 2021, 08:42 PM   #39
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there is a point at seven shots, beyond which increasing the number of shots increases the likelihood of getting an outlier more than it increases the "typicalness" of the group, skewing the results. To get the most information from group diameters in the fewest total shots, fire six or more seven-shot groups and average their diameters.
Statistically that is true Nick but math seldom tells the whole story. For some shooters getting a 9 after 19 X's and 10's is the outlier, for others like myself getting a 8 after 19 X's, 10's and 9's is the outlier

@ Kilo what I look for when practicing in windy conditions is the vertical spread and the horizontal. Vertical will tell me what the load/barrel is doing and the horizontal is telling me how good my wind reading was or was not. Windy at 300 is perfect for practice in my opinion. The best evaluator of the rifle and the wind reading ability of the person pulling the trigger.

When I look at pics of a lot of my targets and it aint real hard to figure out which way the wind was blowing. Vertical spreads of .5 and .6 with horizontals of a MOA or better. I have pic of a 300 match target that has a 1 inch vertical spread and 4.5 inches horizontal. LOL . Twenty shots that look like a ribbon laid across the target. I am not real proud of that target but I keep it as reminder that it wasn't the rifle or the ammo that screwed up that day.

That is why I don't worry about buying that $5K custom or improving my ammo any until I learn to read the wind better. A BAT action, AMP annealer, $2.5 K neck turning machine and a Labradar would not help me read that wind one bit better
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Old June 16, 2021, 12:59 PM   #40
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I did shoot this again yesterday. I did not have a great deal of time so I just fired a 20 shot string. The barrel was already a little warm. Before I shot the 20 shot string, I had to sight in the optic (switched optic from different gun). Took maybe 6 or 7 shots to sight in without a bore scope.

Anyway, the group turned out alright as far as I am concerned. The group measures 1.011: outside to outside. Subtract .264" to get .747". Divide by 1.047" to get .71 MOA for a 20 shot group. That was from a bipod and rear bag with a warm barrel. I am happy with that. the attached image is the 20 shot group.
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Old June 16, 2021, 05:50 PM   #41
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Nothing wrong with that.
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Old June 16, 2021, 06:33 PM   #42
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Whenever I shoot more than ten rounds and they are say 1/2-3/4 MOA, I’ve noticed the more I shoot at that target the bigger the group becomes. I think it’s because focusing on the hole in the target causes me to allow a little more movement without realizing I’m not completely settled in. I’ve done one thing that at least in my case kind of supports my notion, I’ll shoot multiple groups of ten and then overlay the targets and find the aggregate of these groups tends to stay in a smaller size group.
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Old June 17, 2021, 05:14 PM   #43
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Actually, that happens even with a machine rest. The more rounds you shoot, the more chances you are giving outliers to appear. This plot shows expected size of a group with the same radial standard deviation as the shot count increases:

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Old June 18, 2021, 07:23 AM   #44
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I know Sierra has pretty tight tolerances with bullet runout.
from thier website...

Quote:
Jacket concentricity of .0000″ to .0003″ on target bullets and .0000″ to .0006″ on hunting bullets.
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Old June 19, 2021, 12:25 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by jetinteriorguy View Post
Whenever I shoot more than ten rounds and they are say 1/2-3/4 MOA, I’ve noticed the more I shoot at that target the bigger the group becomes. I think it’s because focusing on the hole in the target causes me to allow a little more movement without realizing I’m not completely settled in. I’ve done one thing that at least in my case kind of supports my notion, I’ll shoot multiple groups of ten and then overlay the targets and find the aggregate of these groups tends to stay in a smaller size group.
I always adjust my sights slightly so I do not impact my aiming point when shooting groups at 100 yards.
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Old June 20, 2021, 01:28 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by hounddawg
Statistically that is true Nick but math seldom tells the whole story. For some shooters getting a 9 after 19 X's and 10's is the outlier, for others like myself getting a 8 after 19 X's, 10's and 9's is the outlier
Oh, the math won't stop outliers or even account for them in any specific way other than to say how often to expect them and to not give them too much weight. That's not the point. The point is to get the most representative possible idea of the gun and shooter's combined precision in the fewest total shots using up the least barrel life possible. So while you can do it with ten round groups, because group diameter is dependent on just two shots out of the total number in the group, you wind up firing a larger total number of uncounted rounds (the ones that aren't either of the two that define your group size) to get the same certainly in your information about how precise you and your gun are.

So that paper I linked to is just a statistical method of cutting down how many rounds you need downrange to check performance or to learn what a change in your technique (either loading or shooting) has done to your overall precision. Knowing where every single shot lands remains the method that uses the fewest total shots of all. I've been looking at the less expensive sonic shot locators for this reason, though the accuracy limit on them (as compared to the more expensive ones) is a little discouraging. Meanwhile, I just don't shoot so many on each bull that I can't find all the individual holes in On Target TDS.
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Old June 20, 2021, 11:11 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by milboltnut View Post
I know Sierra has pretty tight tolerances with bullet runout.
from thier website...
That is not loaded bullet runout in a cartridge.

It's the jacket thicknes tolerance before seating the lead core then shaping the ogive.in a pointing die.
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Old June 22, 2021, 08:59 AM   #48
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Well I’ll be darned, good idea. Thanks, I definitely never would have thought of that. Just goes to show, ya learn something new every day as long as you pay attention. Oops, forgot to link to post#45.
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Old June 22, 2021, 10:53 AM   #49
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I always adjust my sights slightly so I do not impact my aiming point when shooting groups at 100 yards.
here is a nifty target designed by Adam McDonald (Autotrickler, Shotmarker) that you might want to download

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/05...f?v=1614621078
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Old June 22, 2021, 11:21 AM   #50
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That looks like a good way to make it printable. The standard benchrest bull is another to consider. The ink pad and stamp to put them on paper are still available. That way you can stamp it on tagboard stock if your printer finds tagboard too heavy to handle, and still enjoy the cleaner holes you get in tagboard as compared to typing paper.
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