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Old June 17, 2021, 12:54 PM   #126
74A95
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
No, sorry, it won't. Equal the .357 Magnum, that is. You may get 1,450fps with a 125gr, .38 Super, but the .357 will do more than that, lots more...

How much more? Source for ballistics? Thanks.
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Old June 17, 2021, 01:33 PM   #127
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Seems like the argument has transitioned from are revolvers still relevant, to arguing that semi-autos are better than revolvers... The fact that we're still having that argument proves revolvers are at least still relevant.

If someone asked if single shot pistols, break top revolvers, or cap and ball pistols are still relevant we could have some disagreement. Asking if modern revolvers are still relevant is kind of silly IMO.
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Old June 17, 2021, 02:50 PM   #128
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Quote:
How much more? Source for ballistics? Thanks.
How much more? a couple hundred feet per second, if the gun will take it.

Source? Personal experience and loads published in Speer manual #11.
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Old June 17, 2021, 02:59 PM   #129
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And even some top break revolvers are very relevant. I have a Webley MkIV in 455 that is still as relevant as the day it left the factory, and I wouldn't doubt to use it if necessary.
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Old June 17, 2021, 03:12 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
How much more? a couple hundred feet per second, if the gun will take it.

Source? Personal experience and loads published in Speer manual #11.
I have Speer's #10, and the 357 data does appear to be higher than what is in the current (#14) manual. I'll have to try them.

I get the impression that those old 357 loads exceed current pressure limits. Might that be the case? Thanks again.
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Old June 17, 2021, 05:45 PM   #131
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Oh, they DO exceed today's wimp SAAMI limits!

today, SAAMI sets the pressure limit at 35,000 psi.

In the day of Speer #11, and earlier ones, the pressure limit was 46,000cup, more than for the .44 Magnum, which at the time was 43,500cup. And, this was the standard when I was doing testing.

In fact, if anything, the results Speer listed for the top end 125gr .357 mag velocities are lower than what I got. HOWEVER, these loads are not suitable for all guns chambered in .357 Magnum today.

When you get up to 19+gr 2400 K frames can have problems and no smaller guns should even be considered. Today the listed pressure limits are much lower charge weights are lower by several grains, and velocity is less by around a couple hundred feet per second with every bullet.

I believe that SAAMI's concern was NOT with maximum cartridge performance but with acceptable performance in all guns, including the lightest weight snub noses.

A couple of further points, SAAMI compliance is voluntary and some ammo makers do not comply. Next, since we're talking about handloads for your or my specific guns, and NOT about what has to work in everything, SAAMI limits are essentially irrelevant.

Now, I'm not saying safety is irrelevant, its not, but there is a large gap between unsafe and SAAMI specs. And, there is also a difference between unsafe and unsuitable.

Top end load from Speer #11 (actually .5gr less than listed max) that Speer got 1550fps from a 6" Ruger Security Six clocked 1620fps from the 6" model 19 a friend had.

However, that load proved unsuitable, for THAT model 19. My friend firing it over my chronograph somehow "doubled" the gun. Fired twice when he only intended to shoot once. Chrony said 1620fps and we decided to suspend use of that ammo in that gun. When opened, the two fired cases had to be driven out of the chamber, finger pressure on the ejector rod would NOT budge them.

Next, we tested the same ammo in my 6" S&W Model 28 Highway Patrolman.
Six rounds, all fired normally avg 1670fps and ejection was normal. Blast on the other hand was heavy.

Same ammo fired through a Desert Eagle, with a 6" barrel, 9 rnds, fed, fired and ejected flawlessly. Vel was 1720fps. And, from a Marlin carbine, velocity was spot on 2200fps.

The CARTRIDGE has potential well above current factory loads or current published load data, but it can only be fully realized in guns that will take it, and not all will.

interestingly, the same Speer #11 that shows 125gr .357 over 1500fps does not show any 125gr .38 Super load that goes beyond 1300fps.

And current Speer doesn't either.

So, in return, where does your 1450fps 125gr .38 Super load come from?
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Old June 17, 2021, 06:53 PM   #132
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Quote:
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Oh, they DO exceed today's wimp SAAMI limits!

today, SAAMI sets the pressure limit at 35,000 psi.

In the day of Speer #11, and earlier ones, the pressure limit was 46,000cup, more than for the .44 Magnum, which at the time was 43,500cup. And, this was the standard when I was doing testing.
I see that SAAMI's current CUP pressure limit for the 357 Magnum is 45,000 CUP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
A couple of further points, SAAMI compliance is voluntary and some ammo makers do not comply.
Do you happen to know which ammo makers do not comply? Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
interestingly, the same Speer #11 that shows 125gr .357 over 1500fps does not show any 125gr .38 Super load that goes beyond 1300fps.

And current Speer doesn't either.

So, in return, where does your 1450fps 125gr .38 Super load come from?
It's based on current published data. Selecting the right gunpowder makes all the difference. 1,450 can be achieved and stay within SAAMI pressure limits for the 38 Super. (36,500 psi)

Here: https://www.shootingtimes.com/editor...38-super/99160

I've been able to more-or-less replicate those speeds. Vit N105 is a wonderful powder in the 38 Super.

The 38 Super can be pushed past its limit as well. Col. Cooper made insane ammo with his 9mm Super Cooper from .223 cases. He pushed 125 grain bullets to 1,750 fps and 90 grain bullets to 2,000 fps from a 6.5" barrel. His pressures must have been insane!

I've dabbled a little with Super Cooper-like loads in a 6.0" barrel. Velocities are impressive, but pressure must be insane! I don't recommend that people ever try this.
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Old June 18, 2021, 07:28 AM   #133
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I've taken 125-gr. jacketed bullets past to 1,700 fps out of a 6" Model 28 Smith using WW 296.

And that was a book load from Hodgdon.

Some of the Accurate powders will get you into the same ballpark.

You're not coming anywhere near that even with .38 Super +P.
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Old June 18, 2021, 08:01 AM   #134
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I've taken 125-gr. jacketed bullets past to 1,700 fps out of a 6" Model 28 Smith using WW 296.

And that was a book load from Hodgdon.

Some of the Accurate powders will get you into the same ballpark.

You're not coming anywhere near that even with .38 Super +P.
Remington 125 SJHP factory ammo clocks at 1,735+ fps from my Ruger Blackhawk with a 6.5" barrel.

There aren't many 38 Super 6" barrels around.

If you overload a 38 Super you can get that kind of speed, which is what Col. Cooper did.
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Old June 18, 2021, 08:39 AM   #135
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If you overload a 38 Super you can get that kind of speed, which is what Col. Cooper did.
Actually, he preferred the 10mm AUTO as the one handgun cartridge offering the best combination of "speed" (velocity), power, and accuracy.

'Course, the Colonel helped invent it so he understood its capability.
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Old June 18, 2021, 09:51 AM   #136
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Saw some discussion on calibers and barrel length, just wanted to mention ballistics by the inch, where they compare velocity for specific factory loads in different barrel lengths for different calibers.

They also did some measurements testing effect of barrel gap. Just hadn't seen this site mentioned for a while and didn't want their work to be lost.

The price of J frames have gone up due to the recent panic, but otherwise J frames used to be in the 300's, somewhere like $350 or less. For a revolver with a solid reputation, price wise it used to be equivalent to more budget oriented semi-autos, like a used Ruger semi-auto, or maybe a new LCP.
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Old June 18, 2021, 11:24 AM   #137
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Considering they're still making revolvers, of all different types, and selling them pretty often, I'd say they are still relevant.
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Old June 18, 2021, 12:11 PM   #138
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But...Gold Dot 9mm is currently on version 4. HST was released 2002.

Arguing if FPS/pressure makes revolvers relevant is an argument of how to make their standard calibers relevant when 9mm moved far ahead with desired bullet outcomes with significantly lower work by the propellant.

Speer's Gold Dot is the worst performers in the Lucky Gunner test for expansion in both 2" and 4". So it's not that the brand is created equal.

$300 only snagged you a Taurus 85. Even the new Taurus 865 is more expensive. Not a price discussion, but...LCP dropped to $150 for about a year 2 years ago. I bought one from Palmento for that price. S&W revolvers have never been close to that.
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Old June 18, 2021, 06:18 PM   #139
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When I was a kid, most cops had Model 10 38’s in their holsters. I, on the other hand, was certain in my 18yr old book learnin’, that auto’s were superior in general, and that the 9mm was better than 38 spl…I acquired a nine as soon as I could, a Radom P35 left over from WWII (while I saved for a HiPower).
While I am still most likely to have an auto on hand for home defense, I have come to appreciate the revolvers of my youth. During the great police surplus revolver sell off days a few years ago, I picked up a 4” Model 15-3 .38 Combat Masterpiece for a ridiculously cheap price, and found it to be a handgun I couldn’t miss with… I would feel well armed indeed for just about anything, with the right ammo.
Later, I found a deal on a 4” taper barrel Pre-Model 10, likely a birth year made example for me. I think I paid $225. What a great revolver. I have occasionally carried it, in its Bianchi #3 “pistol pocket” IWB holster, loaded with +P 158gn swchp.
But, I won’t lie…the gun next to me right now is a G22 loaded with 180gn HST…again, police surplus!
If all I owned was the Pre-Model 10, I would still feel very well armed. People went to war with that revolver. Should be ok for Ohio.
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Old June 18, 2021, 07:02 PM   #140
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Note that the ultimate autoloader cartridge is the .50 Action Express. There's no more powerful autoloader to be had. There are lots of revolvers in calibers that make .50AE look weak in the knees.
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Old June 18, 2021, 07:48 PM   #141
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Old June 18, 2021, 08:34 PM   #142
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Give me one reason why this .44 would be irrelevant……

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Old June 19, 2021, 06:27 AM   #143
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Where is the Tactical rail for the flashlight???
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Old June 19, 2021, 07:22 AM   #144
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The case for the Modern Day Defensive gun.

https://revolverguy.com/the-case-for...sive-revolver/
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Old June 20, 2021, 11:57 AM   #145
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In this world of inflated real estate, quantitative easing currency debasement, falsified government low inflation stats, intrusive governments who make their populations scared so that their citizens will give up their rights for "safety and the attempts worldwide to go cashless or to cryptocurrencies, the only three things I find relevent are in the photo below.

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Old June 20, 2021, 12:01 PM   #146
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Here's another perspective:

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/...e-survival-gun
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Old June 20, 2021, 04:22 PM   #147
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Glad you value gold. Know which country has some of the largest amounts of gold? India.

I'll back my US dollar any day over India.

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Old June 21, 2021, 08:06 AM   #148
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Old June 21, 2021, 08:14 AM   #149
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Quote:
Give me one reason why this .44 would be irrelevant.
Emmmmm ... 'cause it's a Taurus?

Saw one of those lock-up on the range. Cylinder stuck super-tight. Would't turn or even wiggle. Took the guy's local 'smith two hours using a mallet to get it open and working.

Most "jams" in a semi-auto can be cleared quickly in the field - by hand - through one of several immediate action drills.

But when the cylinder of a revolver locks-up, you're done without time and tools ... except possibly for using it as an impact weapon.
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Old June 21, 2021, 08:32 AM   #150
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Emmmmm ... 'cause it's a Taurus?

Saw one of those lock-up on the range. Cylinder stuck super-tight. Would't turn or even wiggle. Took the guy's local 'smith two hours using a mallet to get it open and working.

Most "jams" in a semi-auto can be cleared quickly in the filed - by hand - through one of several immediate action drills.

But when the cylinder of a revolver locks-up, you're done without time and tools ... except possibly for using it as an impact weapon.
Lol, as a long time RSO I have seen many semi's that were very difficult to clear with a jam. You forgot to mention that there are more frequent jams with semi's, yes, many can be cleared easily, but that does not excuse the fact that it happens. Heck, I have seen whole slides sent down range with semi's. And there are many that have had to take jammed semi's to a gun smith. I do not own a Taurus, never have, but I can say this, I have not seen the issue with Their revolvers having many problems. I knew the Taurus bashing would come up as soon as I saw the picture. You saw one particular gun fail, so have you ever seen a semi fail and post about it?
I personally know many Taurus Revolver shooters that have been shooting them for years and still going strong. Any gun can fail. Seeing one fail really means nothing. Was the gun in good condition, maintained, how many rounds and on and on.

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