The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Dave McCracken Memorial Shotgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old September 11, 2021, 10:39 PM   #1
Prof Young
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 21, 2007
Location: Illinois - down state
Posts: 2,217
Short "shotgun" for bear . . . ?

Shooters:

Was reading old thread about bear protection for fishermen. Take some bear spray and a big hand gun is the conventional wisdom.

I'm wondering if the shockwave and others like it have found a place in filling this need?

Let's talk.

Life is good.
Prof Young
Prof Young is offline  
Old September 11, 2021, 11:25 PM   #2
Bill DeShivs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2006
Posts: 10,695
Pistol grip shotguns are darned hard to hit anything with.
__________________
Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler
www.billdeshivs.com
Bill DeShivs is offline  
Old September 11, 2021, 11:40 PM   #3
BourbonCowboy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2019
Posts: 104
Bill is right: it's hard to hit anything with a stock Shockwave. And that's why I added the Laser Saddle and TL-Racker. It took a bit of adjusting, but now it's an accurate, shoot-from-the-hip gun.

I don't use it for bear protection, but I probably could (with slugs) if needed.
BourbonCowboy is offline  
Old September 12, 2021, 09:30 AM   #4
Pistoler0
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2019
Location: Conifer, CO
Posts: 570
I would think that a firearm that allows you quicker follow up shots would be more desirable, and a pistol is quicker to deploy and easier to keep always accessible that a shotgun.

Watch this video:
Mama bear shot with shotgun keeps charging
__________________
Life is simply an inter-temporal problem of constrained optimization.
Pistoler0 is offline  
Old September 12, 2021, 11:35 AM   #5
Seedy Character
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 5, 2021
Location: SW Okla
Posts: 201
It would be better than a stick.


Given the choice, a .44mag would be my choice.
IF I had a Coach gun or Shockwave and didn't have a BIG revolver, I would be comfortable with 12 Ga slugs readily available.
Seedy Character is offline  
Old September 12, 2021, 05:58 PM   #6
Onward Allusion
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2009
Location: Back in a Non-Free State
Posts: 3,065
Shockwaves and the like do not have pistol grips. They are birds head grips and you cannot really aim with them in the traditional sense. Not that I have any experience shooting bear but I sure would not want to try and shoot one off the hip.
__________________
Simple as ABC . . . Always Be Carrying
Onward Allusion is offline  
Old September 12, 2021, 06:24 PM   #7
gwpercle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 30, 2012
Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Posts: 1,370
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs View Post
Pistol grip shotguns are darned hard to hit anything with.
You are more than correct ... I wouldn't have believed it but I watched a LEO try to dispatch an attacking dog with a pistol gripped stocked 12 gauge pump , on my city street , the dog was coming towards him from down the street , he was watching the dog come
and by the time he opened car trunk and readied weapon the dog was 10 feet away and closing fast .... the LEO MISSED ... 4 shots ... the first shot at 6 feet , point blank but the LEO was unnerved by the dog's attacking ...comming in low and growling .
The dog stopped and LEO missed a second time at 10 feet ... By the time LEO jacked a third round in chamber the dog was 15 feet away on a run ... LEO shot twice at fleeing dog and dog disappeared behind a house .
I believe the guy should have practiced some fast and furious shooting with that cut down pump ... he may have been better off with a butt stocked shotgun .
The shorties are not as easy to hit with as you would imagine ...
that LEO missed 4 shots and I would never have believed it ... but I watched it happen!
Pumping another round in the chamber quickly ... messes up your sight / hold / picture ... it doesn't matter what you are shooting ... only hits count ...he (LEO) missed 4 times and had to call Animal Control ...hits count .
Gary

Last edited by gwpercle; September 14, 2021 at 04:18 PM.
gwpercle is offline  
Old September 12, 2021, 07:28 PM   #8
jmr40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 15, 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 10,437
A handgun, even in common cartridges like 9mm, 40, and 45ACP work a lot better than conventional wisdom has stated for years. My weapon of choice when around bear is a Glock 29 loaded with 200 gr hardcast ammo. But I've seen enough evidence to feel that a 45 ACP with 255 gr hardcast is suitable.
And while it is really pushing things even the big bear have been killed with 9mm.

https://www.ammoland.com/2019/08/han...#axzz76IdUj3bu

Shotguns with buckshot have not proven to be a good option. Slugs, especially modern slugs work pretty well. If I'm hunting bear then a rifle is my choice, but for a surprise attack I prefer to keep a handgun that is always easily accessible.

A guide was killed by a grizzly 3 years ago while gutting an elk shot by a client with an arrow. He had a Glock 10mm, but left it in his pack while gutting the animal. Might have turned out different had it been on his belt.

https://snowbrains.com/jackson-guide...izzly-wyoming/
__________________
"If you're still doing things the same way you were doing them 10 years ago, you're doing it wrong"

Winston Churchill
jmr40 is offline  
Old September 12, 2021, 08:27 PM   #9
bamaranger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2009
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 7,567
shotguns and bears

A 12 ga shotgun and suitable slugs, like the harder alloy Brennekes and possibly others, are commonly used as bear defense. You can occasionally see Alaska Troopers so armed on their TV series, and I know of several NPS rangers in AK who did the same. Conventional Foster deer slugs are pretty soft and would be a second choice in a shotgun, I have seen them fail to exit on deer.

Whether or not the Shockwave and their ilk are appropriate is another matter. Obtaining consistent accuracy with the birdshead and pistol gripped guns is difficult with "hip shooting". Add closing distance and a moving target and I'd think near impossible. Bringing the guns up to eye level helps a lot, but at that point why not just have a conventional buttstock?
bamaranger is offline  
Old September 12, 2021, 09:22 PM   #10
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 24,281
moving to shotgun forum...
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old September 12, 2021, 10:31 PM   #11
Sharkbite
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2013
Location: Western slope of Colorado
Posts: 3,579
I have a Shockwave (12ga) that we take camping. It is our tent gun. The idea is if Yogi tries to come in the tent, a near contact shot wont be hampered by the lack of stock. Having had the gun on the range during a number of classes, everyone wants to try it. Very few people like it. Harsh recoil, poor shootability and difficult aiming all add up to a very limited window of usefulness.

The upside is the power level (with slugs) is way up there and its easier to use in confined spaces then any like powered rifle. Who wants to sleep snuggled up to a .375 H&H anyway?
Sharkbite is offline  
Old September 13, 2021, 06:30 PM   #12
Dfariswheel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2001
Posts: 7,358
There is a happy medium between the ultra short Shockwave type guns that suffer from not having a stock, and a conventional standard length shotgun.
That's the bullpup.

Probably the best of them in a pump model is the Kel-Tech KS7.
It's much simpler then the complex double magazine Kel-Tec KSG, or any of the other bullpup designs, all of whom are odd-ball designs that are overly complicated.

Over all length of the KS7 is 26 inches, with an 18 1/2 inch cylinder bore barrel.
It holds 7 standard 2 3/4 inch shotgun shells, in the single magazine tube and is a 3 inch chambered gun.
It's light in weight, easy to sling or carry in a pack, and VERY handy into action.
It's far shorter then a conventional shotgun, and unlike the Shockwave types it has a butt stock that offers excellent control and fast shot on target.
The KS7 is actually .37 inch SHORTER then the stockless shockwave gun.

It offers the option of exchanging the carry handle-sight and installing a standard Pickatinny rail that allows mounting any type of sighting system.

Unlike Kel-Tec guns of the past, their new designs like the KS7 are reliable, mature designs that you can count on.
I've heard of several people who fish or work in bear infested woods who sling a KS7 over their back with a sling.
They say that due to the light weight and short length it rides out of the way, but can be swung into action fast.

Dfariswheel is offline  
Old September 13, 2021, 09:29 PM   #13
Bill DeShivs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2006
Posts: 10,695
The KS-7 is a great idea.
__________________
Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler
www.billdeshivs.com
Bill DeShivs is offline  
Old September 13, 2021, 10:18 PM   #14
Screwball
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2012
Location: ME
Posts: 695
While I liked my KSG for the limited time I had it, it was replaced by a TAC-14. Same TAC-14 rides in my truck at certain work locations, where backup is over an hour out… and management decided that agency owned M4s don’t need to be placed there.

KelTec does come up with good designs, but putting them into practice is a bit spotty. My KSG, same with my SUB-2000, required a lot of money to modify it to a point I felt comfortable with it. Maybe the KS7 would answer the main issue I had with the KSG (selector in the center position equates to dead gun… doesn’t happen with an 870 action), but I really don’t want to chance my luck again with KelTec.

For the issue with aiming, like all things, it comes down to practice and technique. If you look around, there are people that have taken TAC-14s and slugs out to 100 yards. Is it easy? No… but it can be done. My TAC-14 is braced, which makes shootability much easier, especially at further ranges. I get minute of man at 50 yards with Sluggers.

If a firearm like that is not appealing… what about a Mare’s Leg? Big bullet, going a little faster than a traditional pistol.
Screwball is offline  
Old September 14, 2021, 05:20 AM   #15
stuckinthe60s
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 31, 2017
Location: Va., Ct., Mo..
Posts: 558
tactical fishing.
who'd ever dream.......
__________________
Retired Military Aviation
Former Member Navy Shooting Team
Distinguished Pistol Shot,NRA Shotgun/Pistol Instructor
NSSA All American, Skeet/Trap Range Owner
stuckinthe60s is offline  
Old September 14, 2021, 12:08 PM   #16
stinkeypete
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 22, 2010
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Posts: 928
Now you need a hunting license and a fishing license to go fishing.
__________________
I hunt, shoot bullseye, plink, reload, and tinker with firearms. I have hung out with the Cowboy Action fellas. I have no interest in carrying firearms in urban areas.
stinkeypete is offline  
Old September 14, 2021, 12:35 PM   #17
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 24,281
The issue I have with the short stockless shotguns is that they are too big to be good handguns. So, in order to carry them they have to be slung, or possibly in a scabbard (on your back?) or in your hands.

Since that is the case, for bear protection while fishing, I think the lack of a stock is a drawback. As far as I can see, the lack of a stock only gives an advantage in how much storage space the gun takes up, and storage space is at the bottom of my priority list for such things.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old September 14, 2021, 02:55 PM   #18
Forte S+W
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 12, 2019
Posts: 714
I own a Mossberg 590 Shockwave, and while it's obviously true that it isn't as easy to shoot accurately as a Shotgun with a conventional stock, it's a far cry from inaccurate or otherwise impossible to hit anything with.



The Shockwave's Raptor Grip is a completely different animal than your typical Vertical Pistol Grip, as it doesn't transfer the recoil straight back into the wrist, but rather off into space. Many folks (myself included) are shocked (pun not intended) to discover that the 590 Shockwave has very little felt recoil compared to other Shotguns, simply because it just isn't transferred into the shoulder or wrist, so all you feel is a little jolt when you pull the trigger.

Furthermore, because the recoil isn't that fierce, contrary to popular belief, you can hold it up, aim down the sights, and fire the gun without it whacking you in the face. By utilizing a simple push/pull method to brace the gun, it is possible to pull off fast, accurate, safe shots with the 590 Shockwave, which can be verified by watching any experienced shooter on YouTube firing one.
Heck, even if you're not confident/comfortable shooting the 590 Shockwave while holding it up to eye level, it can still be fired fast, accurate, and safely by simply tucking the end of the grip between your bicep and pectoral muscles.

So while many folks are bound to come in here ignorantly proclaiming how a gun they've never fired or otherwise put absolutely no thought/effort into firing is impossible to score accurate hits with, not to mention how Grizzly Bears absolutely cannot be dropped by anything short of a 20mm Vulcan, take it from someone who actually owns a Mossberg 590 Shockwave; you absolutely can shoot one fast, accurately, and safely.
What's more, I think that a 590 Shockwave loaded with Brenneke Black Magic Magnum Slugs is just about the best weapon for Wilderness Defense that anyone could buy without spending a lot of money.

The Mossberg is small, lightweight, quick to deploy, and far easier to master than anyone would expect. Yes, it's larger than say a Smith & Wesson Model 500 Magnum Revolver, but it's also easier to control with two points of contact, more powerful with Brenneke Slugs, and only just a little bit heavier to boot. Plus, being a Pump Action Scsttergun, just about the only way that it can malfunction is if you shortstroke the slide, but seeing as you really only have time for one well aimmed shot at a charging bear, and you aren't realistically going to need a second shot with a 3" 12 Gauge Magnum Slug if you do your part, the only thing that you have to worry about is your own ability to take the shot.

So, I say; go long with the 590 Shockwave... *throws football* I do.
__________________
Conspiracy theorists are the greatest political spin-doctors of all time. Only they can make the absolute worst political blunders sound like spectacular feats of ingenuity.
Forte S+W is offline  
Old September 14, 2021, 04:23 PM   #19
gwpercle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 30, 2012
Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Posts: 1,370
For all the shorty pumps faults ... it's still a mean looking SOB and the COOL factor is off the charts .
Like a Mare's Leg rifle , COOL looking , Josh Randall made it look good but a butt stock works better for us normal guys .
Gary
gwpercle is offline  
Old September 14, 2021, 07:07 PM   #20
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 24,281
While I will freely admit to not having fired the Shockwave, I do have experience with a Mossberg 500 with a stock cut off to nearly the identical shape of the Shockwave, though the gun had a couple more inches of barrel.

2 3/4" shells, I found the recoil quite tolerable shooting birdshot but it became noticeably unpleasant moving up to #4 buck and heavier loads were quite painful.

Apparently our personal tolerances in this matter are quite different.

Recoil energy does not "go off into space". YOU may not notice it, but someone else very well might.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old September 14, 2021, 11:18 PM   #21
BourbonCowboy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2019
Posts: 104
Quote:
I own a Mossberg 590 Shockwave, and while it's obviously true that it isn't as easy to shoot accurately as a Shotgun with a conventional stock, it's a far cry from inaccurate or otherwise impossible to hit anything with.



The Shockwave's Raptor Grip is a completely different animal than your typical Vertical Pistol Grip, as it doesn't transfer the recoil straight back into the wrist, but rather off into space. Many folks (myself included) are shocked (pun not intended) to discover that the 590 Shockwave has very little felt recoil compared to other Shotguns, simply because it just isn't transferred into the shoulder or wrist, so all you feel is a little jolt when you pull the trigger.

Furthermore, because the recoil isn't that fierce, contrary to popular belief, you can hold it up, aim down the sights, and fire the gun without it whacking you in the face. By utilizing a simple push/pull method to brace the gun, it is possible to pull off fast, accurate, safe shots with the 590 Shockwave, which can be verified by watching any experienced shooter on YouTube firing one.
Heck, even if you're not confident/comfortable shooting the 590 Shockwave while holding it up to eye level, it can still be fired fast, accurate, and safely by simply tucking the end of the grip between your bicep and pectoral muscles.

So while many folks are bound to come in here ignorantly proclaiming how a gun they've never fired or otherwise put absolutely no thought/effort into firing is impossible to score accurate hits with, not to mention how Grizzly Bears absolutely cannot be dropped by anything short of a 20mm Vulcan, take it from someone who actually owns a Mossberg 590 Shockwave; you absolutely can shoot one fast, accurately, and safely.
What's more, I think that a 590 Shockwave loaded with Brenneke Black Magic Magnum Slugs is just about the best weapon for Wilderness Defense that anyone could buy without spending a lot of money.

The Mossberg is small, lightweight, quick to deploy, and far easier to master than anyone would expect. Yes, it's larger than say a Smith & Wesson Model 500 Magnum Revolver, but it's also easier to control with two points of contact, more powerful with Brenneke Slugs, and only just a little bit heavier to boot. Plus, being a Pump Action Scsttergun, just about the only way that it can malfunction is if you shortstroke the slide, but seeing as you really only have time for one well aimmed shot at a charging bear, and you aren't realistically going to need a second shot with a 3" 12 Gauge Magnum Slug if you do your part, the only thing that you have to worry about is your own ability to take the shot.

So, I say; go long with the 590 Shockwave... *throws football* I do.
Well said. I haven't had mine that long, but I'm getting to be a decent shot with it, and I've never pulled the trigger on a firearm that's more fun to shoot.

A few weeks ago, I carried it when I went to visit my dad. As we sat around chatting that night, an opossum approached us. He told me that it was probably the one that was eating the food he left for his cats at night and asked me to shoot it. One shot from the hip at 20' - utilizing the Laser Saddle and TL-Racker (and my homemade #4 Buck minishells) rolled it up. Now he wants one as well.
BourbonCowboy is offline  
Old September 16, 2021, 10:44 AM   #22
Forte S+W
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 12, 2019
Posts: 714
Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP
While I will freely admit to not having fired the Shockwave, I do have experience with a Mossberg 500 with a stock cut off to nearly the identical shape of the Shockwave, though the gun had a couple more inches of barrel.

2 3/4" shells, I found the recoil quite tolerable shooting birdshot but it became noticeably unpleasant moving up to #4 buck and heavier loads were quite painful.

Apparently our personal tolerances in this matter are quite different.

Recoil energy does not "go off into space". YOU may not notice it, but someone else very well might.
Is your Mossberg 500 fitted with a Raptor Grip like the Mossberg 590 Shockwave? Because that's the game-changer here that makes the recoil characteristics of the Shockwave unique from your typical shoulder stock or vertical pistol grip.

What I meant by saying that the recoil force "goes off into space" is that because the grip doesn't butt into your shoulder or palm like it would with a more traditional style of stock or grip, the felt recoil impulse is greatly mitigated. The recoil is most certainly there, as she still jolts backwards with authority just like any scattergun, but the Raptor Grip's design prevents said recoil force from being transferred directly into a limb.
__________________
Conspiracy theorists are the greatest political spin-doctors of all time. Only they can make the absolute worst political blunders sound like spectacular feats of ingenuity.
Forte S+W is offline  
Old September 16, 2021, 12:06 PM   #23
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 24,281
Quote:
Is your Mossberg 500 fitted with a Raptor Grip like the Mossberg 590 Shockwave?
No, it didn't have that exact grip. The gun I had (more than 30 years ago) predated the tactical "kits" and vertical pistol grips. It was a standard sporting shotgun that had been cut down to an 18" barrel (by someone skilled, as they shortened the vent rib and reattached the bead), and I think then later had the buttstock cut down, possibly by a different owner.

It had the standard sporting forend, without the little strappy thing the Shockwave has to keep your hand on the gun. The pistol grip was not a vertical one, it was the standard stock's grip with the rest of the stock removed. The upper curve followed the line of the pistol grip, all the way down to the end. VERY similar to what is on the Shockwave, minus the bulge at the bottom that the Shockwave has.

The sloping pistol grip does not slam into your hand the way a vertical pistol grip does, or a buttplate into your shoulder. But this does not mean the recoil isn't there, it just means you feel it differently. There is NO WAY a 5-6lb "short" shotgun has less recoil than a full sized heavier gun shooting the same ammo. NO WAY.

Feeling the recoil (and whether or not it hurts) is a more individual thing, and what bothers some folks doesn't bother others at all.

I didn't keep the gun long, it simply had no use for me, and had drawbacks that a riot size pump gun (with stock) didn't have.

The Shockwave and other guns in that general class might have an advantage against a human adversary, where the psychological effect of the gun MAY be a factor. But for defense against animal attacks, I don't think that holds true.

Bears (or mad dogs, or the uber rare big cat) are simply not impressed by how cool your gun looks or what it says on the barrel. The sound of the pump gun being racked is rarely a deterrent. And they usually don't get impressed by misses. Only hits matter, and only hits in the right places are effective stoppers. The stockless shotgun is simply more difficult to use accurately (not saying it can't be learned, but really, how many people will do that??), which, in my book goes a long way to negating the advantages of its compact size. But, that's just me.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old September 19, 2021, 07:43 PM   #24
Forte S+W
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 12, 2019
Posts: 714
Darn, and here I was thinking that wild animals weren't sent running for the hills by the impressive sight of my Mossberg Shockwave, then the sound of me working the action most certainly would, and thus everything I was saying in favor of the Shockwave up until now is null and void.

Wait a minute, I don't remember saying anything like that at all, and upon reviewing my previous posts, I in fact did not, so yeah, I'm not entirely sure just who you were arguing with there, but you certainly showed them.

Anyway, as for everything else you said which was actually relevant to my post, dunno what to tell you... The felt recoil of the the Shockwave is nothing to me, just a jolt straight backwards which collides with nothing, thus resulting in no pain or discomfort, which is less than I can say for other shotguns. Maybe it's the push/pull method of my grip if it isn't the grip design itself, but it works for me regardless, and I am confident that I could defend myself from an attacking bear with it. What's more, I think that with proper practice, just about anyone who can handle a shotgun to begin with could learn to handle a Shockwave adequately as well, provided that their pride doesn't prevent them from sticking with it long enough because it quite as intuitive as shooting a conventional shotgun, that is.
__________________
Conspiracy theorists are the greatest political spin-doctors of all time. Only they can make the absolute worst political blunders sound like spectacular feats of ingenuity.
Forte S+W is offline  
Old September 20, 2021, 01:48 PM   #25
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 24,281
First off, I wasn't aware I was arguing with anyone, nor did I single out anything anyone said unless I put it in a "quote block", but if you want to consider everything you said earlier null and void, you certainly may do so.

Seriously though, you mention both of these things,
Quote:
contrary to popular belief, you can hold it up, aim down the sights, and fire the gun without it whacking you in the face.
and
Quote:
... a 3" 12 Gauge Magnum Slug ...
and you mention some guy on Utube shooting the gun and no getting whacked in the face, so, I'm curious, have you, personally, ever done it?? And, if so, did you do it with the 3" slugs you mention??

I ask this as a serious question, because I have personal experience that watching someone do something does not teach them everything they need to know, it only shows that it can be done, by someone who knows what they're doing.

Friend of mine wacked himself in the nose with the red dot sight on my .45-70 Contender. He had watched me shoot it several times, and a few times off hand, but while he did a fine job with his wrists when he tried it, he didn't do so well with his elbows and the gun came back and hit him in the nose. Bled a bit too! He DID hit the target (steel plate at about 40yds) and after we got the bleeding (and the laughing) stopped, his response was the admirable, "thank you sir! May I have another??"

His second shot also hit the target, and the gun did not hit him in the face. So it can be learned, but just watching someone else shoot doesn't necessarily teach everything you need to know.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:26 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.06519 seconds with 10 queries