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July 19, 2009, 01:05 AM | #26 | |
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I think I'll just stick to MRE heaters.
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July 19, 2009, 01:32 AM | #27 |
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A guy who, at this time, must remain nameless worked at a small shop that made aluminum hand railings and stairs...
Learned that if you take some of this stuff... http://www.highsidechem.com/pinkstf.html Acid based aluminum cleaner... poured into a coke bottle along with a small handfull of aluminum shavings from under the saw table, close it and toss it... It makes a heck of a kaboom... And it is super hot as well as chemically dangerous... Don't know if it was illegal or not but bet it will be if anyone ever gets harmed from this... Brent |
July 19, 2009, 04:53 AM | #28 |
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Maybe we should require people to fill out BATFE form CO2236 when buying dry ice and subject them to a 10-day waiting period, eh?
Seriously, all that's happening is people have found a cheap source to make sufficient pressure, to burst a common container via a chemical reaction. Use calcium carbide and water and you can make the gas flammable. The problem is that some people get hurt because they don't appreciate the forces involved and the potential dangers.
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July 19, 2009, 05:08 AM | #29 | |
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July 19, 2009, 06:18 AM | #30 | |
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Needless to say we had to put a stop to it when they started using 1 gallon jugs. Kind of made for a minature hydrogen bomb. |
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July 19, 2009, 12:03 PM | #31 | |
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WildsonoonecantellmewhyitsstupidAlaska TM |
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July 19, 2009, 12:15 PM | #32 |
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I think it made the point.... just like what does dry ice have to do with a criminal
act and the same with not being able to carry an ice cream cone in your back pocket....
some lame brained legislator decided it would stop a crime when the crime is already illegal and has a penalty... no different than outlawing guns will stop people from killing each other for what ever reason. |
July 19, 2009, 12:21 PM | #33 | |
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WildandagainandagainuntilafewwordsjumpoutatyouAlaska TM |
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July 19, 2009, 06:17 PM | #34 | |||
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I really don't think it was the legislature's intent to create a new offense to add to the rap sheet of someone who builds/owns/transports/sells/buys illegal weapons and also happens to have a side business of making dry ice bombs. For that reason I think the legislature's intent was that the dry ice in question would be connected to the prohibited weapon. Please explain what else you think the quoted statute does. Quote:
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The most dangerous thing about dry ice in my experience is that you can suffocate in enclosed spaces if you have it in an unsealed container. But since that probably doesn't involve a prohibited weapon (Arizona's definition of prohibited weapon in 13-3101 does not include noxious substances anything similar), it wouldn't be a separate offense if for instance someone intended to put a block of dry ice in someone else's bedroom overnight. If anything involving CO2 deserves to be separately criminalized, that method of (attempted) murder is a heinous act that certainly qualifies. (edit: I'm also concerned about the dual inclusion of a variety of explosives under 13-3101 (A)(8)(a)(i) and (A)(8)(a)(vii). A8a(i) does have an exception for legally owned destructive devices, but A8a(vii) does not, and seems to include explosive DDs.)
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July 19, 2009, 06:31 PM | #35 | |
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Is dry ice per se an dangerous instrument? I think not. So the law fills the lacunae, in light of some documented examples of dry ice bombs. WildnotalllawsarestupidalthoughmanyareAlaska TM |
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July 19, 2009, 06:46 PM | #36 |
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Are you talking about filling a hole in the AZ law's defintion of "dangerous weapon"? Because that's a very specific term.
"knife" "blade" "edge" "scissors" occur nowhere in 13-3101. Most (all?) state laws accept that anything used in a dangerous fashion becomes a dangerous or deadly weapon. They shouldn't need a specific extra law to cover dry ice bombs. The fact that they included intent to harm in the law means that they're not trying to make it a per se weapon. So, what advantage are they gaining over simply charging people with aggravated assault/battery, reckless endangerment, or any of a host of other laws that potentially also apply?
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“The egg hatched...” “...the egg hatched... and a hundred baby spiders came out...” (blade runner) “Who are you?” “A friend. I'm here to prevent you from making a mistake.” “You have no idea what I'm doing here, friend.” “In specific terms, no, but I swore an oath to protect the world...” (continuum) “It's a goal you won't understand until later. Your job is to make sure he doesn't achieve the goal.” (bsg) |
July 19, 2009, 09:14 PM | #37 | |
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Police pull over MS13 dudes, find cooler full of dry ice, a dozen glass quart jars, nails and a note saying Here's a gift for you white guys. Crime? before law? After law? WilditsaquestionofintentAlaska TM |
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July 19, 2009, 10:48 PM | #38 | |
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July 20, 2009, 11:02 AM | #39 | |
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Gotta stop those dry-ice assaults. My guess is that the law came about because somewhere in AZ, a couple of nimrods tried it after watching some YouTube videos and either; (a) Hurt themselves (b) injured a 3rd party. Or there was an incident using a glass bottle or something like nails to turn it into an antipersonnel device. This is the big trend with lawmakers -- don't outlaw the actual act, outlaw anything leading up to the act and/or the mere possession of something.
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July 20, 2009, 04:29 PM | #40 | |
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People have been convicted of murder on far more circumstantial evidence than that. By the time the prosecution has proven intent -- required as an element of the added dry ice offense -- they've proven motive for the carbombing(s). Clearly the gang had the means since they had dry ice and "bomb" materials, and if they were pulled over near the crime scene they had opportunity. What jury won't convict on that?
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“The egg hatched...” “...the egg hatched... and a hundred baby spiders came out...” (blade runner) “Who are you?” “A friend. I'm here to prevent you from making a mistake.” “You have no idea what I'm doing here, friend.” “In specific terms, no, but I swore an oath to protect the world...” (continuum) “It's a goal you won't understand until later. Your job is to make sure he doesn't achieve the goal.” (bsg) |
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July 20, 2009, 05:37 PM | #41 | |||
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Further, can you emprically demonstrate this purported "trend" absent reference to the ever increasing technological means of doing harm. WildthisgetsinterestingAlaska ™ |
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July 20, 2009, 06:07 PM | #42 |
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I think I am safe from from this law as I have no idea where to get dry ice. As far as I know it would be about as easy to obtain some nuclear feul for a bomb than a dry ice bomb. What would be the involvement of dry ice and guns?
Just ignorant down here in the South. |
July 20, 2009, 06:50 PM | #43 |
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Maybe they think the Dry Ice will lock up the Hydrocarbons and make detection by sniffer dogs less effective!
I can't think of why you would want dry ice near a firearm! I suppose if it was in a container, Like Nitrogen it (Co2) would prevent rusting. Eaaa? |
July 21, 2009, 02:39 AM | #44 | |||
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If the same MS-13 members, in AZ, carry the same materials - a dozen glass quart jars, nails and a note saying Here's a gift for you white guys substituting a gallon of water and 2 pounds of calcium carbonate, could they be charged with an offense? You betcha, but only if the police officer knew that calcium carbonate in water produces a lot of flammable gas. At the very least, he has probable cause to detain and investigate these individuals. The same would apply to the dry ice. One of my local hardware stores sells dry ice, especially for early morning fishermen heading south. So, if I decide today I'm going to wire in new cabinet lights in the kitchen and purchase a pound of sheet rock screws, wire, some mason jars for the wife's pickle project and 10 lbs of dry ice to keep the fridge cold while I work, a police officer might believe your theory of possession forming "intent" for some malum per se act. Quote:
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July 21, 2009, 06:03 AM | #45 |
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Interesting discussion. I have never heard of a dry ice bomb. Learn something everyday.
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July 22, 2009, 01:48 AM | #46 | |
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There doesn't appear to be any involvement between dry ice and firearms, as far as I can tell. |
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July 22, 2009, 06:40 PM | #47 |
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Thanks for all of the input...this is the very best place to get all of the opinions (and they are free *smile*) no pun intended.
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