The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: Bolt, Lever, and Pump Action

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old May 18, 2018, 09:20 AM   #1
armednfree
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 30, 2016
Posts: 211
Quick Barrel break in question

When shooting the series, would it matter if you used a Trailboss load?
armednfree is offline  
Old May 18, 2018, 10:34 AM   #2
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA
Posts: 24,798
I doubt that the rifle cares one way or another.
Art Eatman is offline  
Old May 18, 2018, 11:59 AM   #3
T. O'Heir
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 12,453
You don't need to break in a barrel either. Doesn't matter if you do or not though, but handloads will do nicely either way.
__________________
Spelling and grammar count!
T. O'Heir is offline  
Old May 18, 2018, 12:08 PM   #4
bamaranger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2009
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 8,273
break in

There's a pretty good article on barrel break in found in a recent issue of "Rifle" magazine, authored by John Barsness. Breaking in a barrel has always been an issue for debate. Many contend that most barrels will not really benefit, especially a run of the mill commercial sporter. Barsness concludes the same.

But some premium barrel makers recommend, and custom shops still perform barrel break ins I suppose. And any rifle I buy new, I do my own version of a shoot and clean break in. Can't hurt, and if it helps, why wouldn't you want to improve accuracy and easy of cleaning, alleged attributes of a good break in?

I wouldn't think that the type of powder used to drive the bullet during a break in would matter. The supposed polishing action is derived by the passage of the slug. I don't know if I've ever heard of a a lead slug being used in a break in, unless it was used in a kit (Tubb's) with some type of abrasive applied.
bamaranger is offline  
Old May 18, 2018, 03:01 PM   #5
jmr40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 15, 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 10,792
All barrels shoot more accurately after a few rounds down the tube. Some only need 10-12 to reach optimum accuracy; others may need 100 or more. But the barrel can't count and doesn't know or care if you clean it after every 1, 3, 5, or 50 rounds. Shoot it, clean it when dirty. Expect better accuracy after a few rounds have been through it.
__________________
"If you're still doing things the same way you were doing them 10 years ago, you're doing it wrong"

Winston Churchill
jmr40 is offline  
Old May 18, 2018, 03:34 PM   #6
armednfree
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 30, 2016
Posts: 211
As it happened the barrel got hot after 5 rounds, 6mm creed. I shot Hoppes Elite down it then a patch followed by a brush and dry patches. After every 5 shots and I still had to let it set a bit.
armednfree is offline  
Old May 18, 2018, 04:40 PM   #7
std7mag
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 23, 2013
Location: Central Taxylvania..
Posts: 3,609
It matters not...
__________________
When our own government declares itself as "tyrannical", where does that leave us??!!

"Januarary 6th insurrection".
Funny, I didn't see a single piece of rope...
std7mag is offline  
Old May 18, 2018, 06:05 PM   #8
sigshepardo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2011
Location: Indiana
Posts: 150
Wouldn't see why it would.

I would just bore snake it every 3 or so until you feel like its enough
In the past I've done some painfully long break ins and the results are a bit mixed

I will say that some barrels benefit more than others. If you have a really well made barrel then no. Average barrels to low then yes

But all in all don't kill yourself with firing 1 round then cleaning it for 30 min all the way to 100 rounds
sigshepardo is offline  
Old May 18, 2018, 07:22 PM   #9
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA
Posts: 24,798
From a bench rest record holder:

http://yarchive.net/gun/barrel/break_in.html
Art Eatman is offline  
Old May 19, 2018, 07:33 AM   #10
JeepHammer
Junior member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2015
Posts: 1,768
What I see with a magnified bore scope,
Several burrs, pits in the barrel.
Rifling is a drag through, high pressure machining process leaving behind issues.

What I see with full power ammo straight away is copper being scraped off into pits.
Pits enlarge when full power rounds are pounded through it.
Copper become plastic under that pressure and expands defects.
Keep in mind a pit was a defect in the steel to begin with, usually a 'Nodule' or a tiny speck of reactive substance. The copper flow simply expands that defect to it's margins.

What I see is burrs/shavings left behind imbedded in the barrel.
I see small, but jagged edges left where burrs are broken off.
I see scratches/gouges where steel has been broken off and dragged down the barrel.

Keep in mind, this isn't speculation or theroy, it's direct observation.
It's repeatable simply by using a bore scope, or watching some of the videos of bore scoping.

What I see when the copper from factory test fire is cleaned out (just new barrels don't get test fired), is small defects in common, mass produced steel bar stock, that is made into a barrel.
Anyone that has ever seen a magnified picture of steel can pick out defects, steel production isn't exactly a 'Sterile' process, contaminants do get in, minerals do clump (nodules), there is no way to keep it out entirely.
Dragging a broach or button down the barrel imbeds impurities, so does a hammer forged mandrel.
Just a side effect of the rough machining processes needed to form rifling.

With the best cleaning the barrel's life to date, simply remove 100% of the copper and back/forth motion of cleaning brush will break loose many of the burrs before you fire anything through it.
High end barrels get an abrasive compound (very fine grit) and a rifling fitted 'Jig' (or plug/jag) working down the sharp spots where burrs broke off, smoothing down the sharper edges of pits so they don't scrape off copper and cause hydraulic expansion of those pits/defects.
This process is called 'Lapping'.

Lapping also gives you an extremely CONSISTENT bore/rifling diameter.
Machining produces a pressure wave in the material ahead of the tool, which 'Rebounds' when the tool passes.
This pressure wave/swell/rebound will happen in ANY material when something displaces it, from air to water to steel. You have all seen the bow wave in front of a boat, and the rebound swell behind a boat, same thing in air which you can't see but feel on the highway when passing a big truck, and steel is no different. Steel being much more dense, the swell/rebound is very small, but it's there.
Lapping helps even out these 'Warps' or 'Ripples' (stress waves) in the steel, uniforming the rifling by removing the 'High' spots.

Once VERY clean, you can do somewhat the same process (to a much lesser extent) by firing lower powered/pressure rounds.
The issue is, even though you are reducing pressure that will cause hydraulic damage, you are still using copper jacketed bullet, which will still leave behind copper pressed into every defect in the barrel.

The ONLY way to get that left behind copper out is clean again, and again, and again, and again...
Clean with a high powered copper reactive cleaner, something that corrodes (and in the corrosion process loosens) & eventually removes copper.

Shoot, clean, shoot, clean, shoot, clean...
After the first 10 to 20 shoot-clean cycles, what I see is MUCH less copper being scraped off into pits or by sharp edges.
The friction of the bullet rounds over edges, both reducing the amount of copper that gets gouged off the bullet, but also smoothing & rounding edges (much like lapping) does.
Pits get larger, margin to margin, but it's a slope into the pit center, then a slope out of the pit center.
It becomes a 'Dip, rather than a square edge hole.

The copper didn't get a chance to build up in the center of the pit, then the high pressure from the next round blows out the pit even deeper, instead the edges are smoothed round, pit becomes a 'Dip' so copper left behind gets pushed out forward of the next bullet, pressure relief being the key to NOT causing a hydraulic pocket.

We all know it takes several rounds for a barrel to 'Settle Down' or 'Break In' and shoot consistantly.
Molicules in the steel alloy are finding their places as the pressure wave from firing passes through them, literally 'Settling In', tight spots getting clearance, as the rifle is fired...
This again is indisputable, it's scientific fact which every precision shooter has directly observed.

By the time you get the first 50-100 rounds through a barrel, the chemical/manual (brush) cleaning isn't a huge issue (unless you are REALLY lazy), most of us have cleaning down to a fine art so it's neither difficult or unfamiliar, and it ensures a good shooting barrel for several thousand rounds in the future.

Reloaders have zero issues producing 20 or 30 lower power rounds for initial break in, and there are a few places that produce lower pressure break in rounds if you don't reload.
At the very worst, the barrel gets 20 great cleaning and wastes your time... An at the very best ensures your new barrel/rifle is as CONSISTANT as it POSSABLY can be.

You all argue amongst yourselves, quote magazine articles, speculate, theorize, regurgitate the same old dogma, I'll go with first hand observations and good to excellent results, scientific based research and continue to lap & break in barrels for a (relatively) super smooth finish that doesn't have copper issues.
JeepHammer is offline  
Old May 19, 2018, 07:47 AM   #11
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 11,653
totally agree with this--I probably violate a bit by running higher pressure rounds too soon.
__________________
"Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Old May 19, 2018, 08:47 AM   #12
JeepHammer
Junior member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2015
Posts: 1,768
If you are talking about my post, glad we finally agree on something...

Naturally, the higher the pressure/faster the round moves, the bigger the need for low pressure rounds.
Wouldn't make much sense to make a 'Low Pressure' .22LR round, or a 'low pressure' 9mm round...

NEVER, EVER, Under ANY circumstances use a 'Fire Lapping' kit unless you know EXACTLY what you are doing!
Lapping is done slow & cool, with a PRECISELY sized jag fitted EXACTLY to the rifling,
Not by an oversized bullet being stuffed into the rifling at high velocity and high pressure!
Bullets are NOT precisely sized or fitted to the bore/rifling!

Fire lapping grinds the crap out of the throat of the chamber/barrel, the MOST pressure, and the MOST grit is applied to the throat.
I've seen it directly, you CAN wind up with a 3" long, WAY oversized throat!

The ONLY fire lapping done to a new barrel was done with soft lead, low velocity/low pressure bullets and Roy Weatherby dropped fire lapping, and wrote/published extensively about the specific problems with fire lapping...
It didn't save money or time, and screwed up barrels as often as not even under the most precisely controlled circumstances & inspections.

Then the home 'Screw it up yourself' kits came along and have ruined more barrels than they have worked on.

Even David Tubb finally admitted that fire lapping is the absloute LAST RESORT to try and make a lousy barrel shoot marginally... And at one time he marketed the biggest selling fire lapping kit.

If you are thinking about fire lapping, DON'T DO IT! This is NOT the way to break in a new barrel under any circumstances!
If it didn't work for Roy Weatherby with all the inspection & Controlled conditions in the world, what are the chances YOU are going to get it right at home?...
JeepHammer is offline  
Old May 19, 2018, 09:02 AM   #13
JeepHammer
Junior member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2015
Posts: 1,768
I find SOFTER bullets work better, like light weight, thin jacket 'Varmint' bullets work well, even with reduced velocities.
Don't do the goofy 'Backwards' bullets, no point in that at all (pun intended).

The less MASS the bullet has, the easier the throat/barrel can form it to the rifling, low pressure means the hydraulic effect is reduced.
I load the first 20-30 well above 'Squib' but well below full pressure, a little corn cob media to fill the case and off to the races...

Keep in mind, when it comes to motion/hydraulic pressure, doubling pressure creates a 4x increase in hydraulic damage.
With the 50s vintage rounds (.223, .308) I simply half the powder charge & use cob media to fill out the case, I don't even change powders, Win 748, Benchmark & Varget still hit the 100 yard target so it's no where near a 'Squib', they just hit low.

With gas operated firearms, I disconnect the gas system, blocking the barrel gas port, or use a 3/4 powder charge. That gas port can bleed off a LOT of pressure.

If it were the modern 'Super Mags' I might hunt around for a different powder, but so far the half load (reducing hydraulic damage by a factor of 4) has worked so far...
JeepHammer is offline  
Old May 19, 2018, 09:33 AM   #14
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 11,653
Quote:
If you are talking about my post, glad we finally agree on something...
Shocked me too.
__________________
"Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.07724 seconds with 10 queries