.280 AI

[lefteye]

Curious - what, if any, experience have you had with the .280 Ackley Improved and what is your opinion about this cartridge?

[nicknitro71]

It's going to be my next built.

I'm a big fan of the .30-06 case and also the 7mm.

You get all the performance of the 7mm magnum with less powder, less recoil, no belt, longer barrel life, and dare for originality and good looks!

You can form the cases easily from .280 Remington brass. I also know people who form it from .270 and also .30-06 brass.

What I'd do is to send a finished round to whoever is going to make the barrel so they can fit it and throat it using the very same ammo you will reloading as dies from different manufacturer tend to be different. I'll be using Redding dies, body only, and neck-only as I like to separate the tasks as much as possible.

With the long 7mm bullets, such as the Berger 180, it will reach maximum magazine length, so make sure you get the longest possible magazines as long actions can be equipped with two different length mags.

It's a bad-ass round!

[Picher]

I've used neck-sizing dies and body/neck dies, but never heard of people having separate body-only dies. It seems like an unnecessary step for people who aren't going to shoot a LOT, but probably worth the trouble if you do.

I have Redding Dies, but minimally size my brass to fit the chamber of my rifles and test-chamber each time I size a batch, to be sure they haven't gotten too stiff to fit with that sizer setting. My reloads are as accurate as possible for all my rifles, but are mostly hunting rounds, not target ammo.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by Picher

I've used neck-sizing dies and body/neck dies, but never heard of people having separate body-only dies. It seems like an unnecessary step for people who aren't going to shoot a LOT, but probably worth the trouble if you do.

I use seperate dies for all my rifle cartridges. Lee Collet neck dies and Redding body/shoulder dies.

The Lee die insures the most consistent possible neck while the body/shoulder die is only used when chambering gets tight, which is rare. This way, I still get the consistent Lee neck sizing and having to size the body/shoulder doesn't affect it. Using a Lee Classic Turret press, it only means one more pull of the handle.

[GeauxTide]

I considered the AI until my gunsmith advised trying a 280 with 26" barrel first. I could push 140s to 3150, 150s to 3000, and 160s to 2850 with RL-19 and IMR 4831. Not bad.

[old roper]

Picher, the Redding body die has been around for many,many years and you can get them in small base sizer also. JLC that post on the 6br site take that die and making bushing die out of it.

I use an arbor die for neck sizing (Wilson) and when it comes time for FL sizing I'll use the body die and the and the Wilson doen't have any type expander so I don't work the neck very much. Redding is making type S FL sizer it's a bushing die option of no expander and you can use that die also as body die.

As to the 280AI. Nosler has some pretty good loading data for the 160gr @ 3045fps and for the 280 same bullet only one @ 2929fps most are in the high 2800fps barrels Lilja on the 280 and Wiseman on the 280AI both barrel 26"

In my 280AI one gr under max 60.5/IMR-7828 with 160gr AB I'm 3045fps and 56gr/R-17 with 160gr AB @ 3046fps and I use a Lilja 3 groove barrel.

Instead of doing the 280 I'd ordered or gunsmith ordered two 7mm barrel I opt for the 284 on long action and 53gr/R-17 @ 3009fps. I got the same accuracy out to 600yds with 52.5gr/R17 @ 2983fps and that's what I've been shooting.

I've got plenty of the Nosler 280AI brass . All the Ackley I've build I've shot the parent case and at present besides the 280AI I'm shooting 222AI,223AI,243AI and that's the one I need to work on. I have custom barrel on 222,223 and 243.

The 280AI has more potential that some give it credit for.

[nicknitro71]

I've used neck-sizing dies and body/neck dies, but never heard of people having separate body-only dies.

I reload with a Lee Loadmaster, it has five stations so the extra step it does not matter.

For rifles:

1. Lee universal decapper
2. Redding body + primer
3. Redding neck
4. Lee universal powder or Lee rifle powder
5. Redding seat and crimp

For guns:

1. Lee universal decapper
2. Lee sizing + primer
3. Lee powder through expansion
4. Lee seat
5. Lee crimp

The only .280 AI I shot was loaded with Reloader 22, 60 grains, 162 gr boat tail which I believe is pushing the fill limit.

[Savage99]

I would not buy or have a .280 Improved made since Nosler messed up the headspace by not following the Ackley dimensions.

The cartridge is just an ordinary also ran anyway.

It's not a real magnum and will not reach out there like a true mag.

The .280 Rem. itself is dead and you won't find ammo anywhere.

The real magnums will out run it and the 270 and 30-06 will run with it and you will find ammo for those!

A forum has the .280 ai as a topic and there is page after page of arguments on how to form brass.

[old roper]

The 280AI is a SAAMI spec and the date issued was 2-1-2008

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC...20Improved.pdf

That case drawing has been out for 5yrs now. As to those two drawing on those different cases hard to say but what I know for sure is that my wife's 280AI we received rifle 6-18-2006. I order a Wilson seater and neck die and Redding body die for the 280AI and I fireform 100 Rem 280 case using COW method.

When the Nosler brass came out I purchased 200 case loaded them fired them FL size reload no problem. I used less than 80 of those cases.

I got my 280AI June 2010. I can load fire the cases from my wife 280AI build 2006 and I can shoot my case in her 280AI.

after I got the body die Redding started making type S bushing sizer/seater neck die and that was toward the end of 2006 or beginning 2007 that's when I got those dies without the seater. I might add I also has 30x28OAI build later and I took few of my wifes 280AI cases and necked them up to 30 and fired them in that rifle and gunsmith use a Manson 280AI reamer then 30 cal throating reamer.

As far as I know Redding never changed their dies for the 280AI because my body die and those other type s dies were made before SAAMI spec approved the 280AI. If there was a change in the headspace the die makers would of change their dies and labeled them.

I'm sure there were different headspace for the 280AI as some gunsmith use gauges for the 280 or some of the other methods.

[Picher]

For my .270 Win, Rem 700, I have loaded many 130 grain Nosler BTs with 60+ grains of Reloder 22, giving 3,200 fps. It groups 5/8" at 100 yards and has taken many deer out to 400 yards.

However, I've switched to Hornady 130 GMX bullets with the same loading and they're devastating, provide great penetration, near 100% weight retention, but aren't quite as accurate; still under 1 MOA. (I like not worrying about my grandkids eating lead-contaminated meat.)

Fortunately, GMX and Barnes TSX may be as effective in some situations than heavier lead-core bullets that shed 15-20% of their weight.

If you want to get into a .280 AI, I admire your spirit, but I'll stick with my .270 Win.

[taylorce1]

Originally Posted by nicknitro71

You get all the performance of the 7mm magnum with less powder, less recoil, no belt, longer barrel life, and dare for originality and good looks!

I have to chuckle a bit when I read this about the .280 AI, as the posters are usually miss informed. If they would actually take a minute to look at published load data the would actually see that the .280 AI will use a few more grains powder and recoil more than the 7mm Rem Mag actually will. Just go to Noslers web site and compare the .280 AI data to the 7mm RM data and you'll see what I mean.

Regardless of case size (.280 AI vs. 7mm RM) if you put more powder in the smaller case and push the bullet to higher velocities you'll have more recoil than the larger of the two. The smaller case will have a faster pressure spike and faster recoil impulse than the larger case, thus giving a sharper recoil than the 7mm RM. So if you are operating at a higher pressure as you are pushing a bullet faster, you are going to see more throat erosion so your barrel won't last as long.

All in all a .280 AI will never have the potential of what a 7mm RM will, if a load is properly worked up to utilizing the capacity of the larger case. Of course the trade off for the extra muzzle velocity will be higher recoil from the big 7mm. If you look at the load data in manuals again you'll see that the MV for the data is down to what factory ammunition is for MV because Remington slowed down the 7mm RM to make recoil tolerable for the masses.

[nicknitro71]

If they would actually take a minute to look at published load data the would actually see that the .280 AI will use a few more grains powder and recoil more than the 7mm Rem Mag actually will.

I do not want to argue here because it's pointless but you are totally wrong. The water case capacity of the 7mm RM is about 95.3 grains vs. the 67.9 of the .280 R, that's a huge difference, about 28% more capacity.

[taylorce1]

Originally Posted by nicknitro71

I do not want to argue here because it's pointless but you are totally wrong. The water case capacity of the 7mm RM is about 95.3 grains vs. the 67.9 of the .280 R, that's a huge difference, about 28% more capacity.

No I'm not "totally wrong", and neither are you as far as case capacities go. However, you obviously forgot to check load densities in the published data and have been enamored by muzzle velocity. More times than not they are actually using a grain or two more powder at the starting load in the .280 AI than they are in the 7mm RM.

Go to the Nosler book or on line and actually take a look at the loads you'll see that they are on average loading the .280 AI from 91-101% of the capacity of the case. Where they are only utilizing 71-94% of the capacity in the 7mm Rem Mag. So if you have less room for a gas to expand in a cylinder your pressures are going to rise faster and the recoil impulse will be quicker. Is it a significant increase in recoil? No, but to say because it has less case capacity so it can't recoil as much is "totally wrong".

If you go to Hogdon's web site and look at their reloading data which is less biased, and you'll actually see what a real comparison of the .280 AI and 7mm Rem Mag is. However the 7mm RM is still operating at lower load density and pressure so the recoil will not be as fast and sharp as a .280 AI in equal weight rifles shooting equal weight bullets. Why do you think there are so many people who post that a .270 recoils worse than a .30-06? It is only because the .270 recoils faster than the old 06, because it is operating at higher pressures.

So you can still believe that case capacity increases recoil all you want. However the .280 AI doing more with less isn't a good argument when it is actually doing it with more when it comes down to Nosler data. Nosler has a vested interest in seeing the cartridge successful since they standardized the round and are selling rifles chambered for it and commercial ammunition. So it is in there best interest to skew the data in favor of their cartridge.

[old roper]

When Nosler first started publishing data for the 280AI in 1996 they used a 24" long Wiseman barrel and top velocity with 160 was in the 2900fps and the loading data for the 7mag same bullet was in the 3100fps range and used over 10gr more power.

I've never build an Ackley based on comparing it to another case but I have build 7mag plus owned factory 7mag and have lot of loading data including chronograph results.

Taylorce1 does bring up some interesting points as to the 7mag and pressure. I think some of the data we load too is lawyer checks first vs other reasons like type of firearms used. Hodgdon manual does have lower pressure for the 7mag loads about 4KPSI than whats published for the 280AI. In some of the manuals I have from the 70's the 7mag 160gr bullet 3000/3100fps.

[taylorce1]

Originally Posted by Old Roper

When Nosler first started publishing data for the 280AI in 1996 they used a 24" long Wiseman barrel and top velocity with 160 was in the 2900fps and the loading data for the 7mag same bullet was in the 3100fps range and used over 10gr more power.

I've never build an Ackley based on comparing it to another case but I have build 7mag plus owned factory 7mag and have lot of loading data including chronograph results.

Taylorce1 does bring up some interesting points as to the 7mag and pressure. I think some of the data we load too is lawyer checks first vs other reasons like type of firearms used. Hodgdon manual does have lower pressure for the 7mag loads about 4KPSI than whats published for the 280AI. In some of the manuals I have from the 70's the 7mag 160gr bullet 3000/3100fps.

IME from loading the .280 Rem for myself and now my brother-in-law you can get within 50 fps of the old .280 AI data without any problems in a modern bolt action. I've seen some of the old 60's & 70's data as well and can tell you a lot of the cartridges have been slowed down. I don't know if it is because chronographs are better now or if the pressure test equipment is better. Either way all reloading manuals have dropped way off in velocity on most cartridges.

[Savage99]

The introduction as a 'factory' round of the .280ai is just an effort to sell those that already have a rifle another one because it's 'new'.

A .280ai will not reach as far as a 7mm WSM and my Kimber Montana 7mm WSM weighs less than a M70 Featherweight!

I have had the so called 'improved' rounds since the 60's and wish they were standard rounds.

However it's all fun for some.

[old roper]

taylorce1, As to the old data for the 280AI not sure who's your talking about since Sierra also has data for the 280AI. I think that manual came out 2002.

I've said this before I do not compare if I did that I'd be doing what your doing this is better than that or whatever or what nicknitro71 said the 280AI is better than the 7mag.

When I had the 280AI build that what it is same with the 284 I had build same with the 7mag I had build. As to my comment about the potential of the 280AI that was about the 280AI and nothing else.

As to the 280 my 280AI was a Rem Factory 280 and I'd also own Rem BDL in 7mm Express so I do have little bit of experience shooting the 280. Never shot a custom 280 and don't plan on building one have zero interest as I'd like the 284 case better. I kind of like spending my money on things I like.

[Jack O'Conner]

I recall an article from Gun Digest back in the '90s that featured the 280AI. Author was safely approaching 7mmMAG velociites but with far less powder and related recoil.

Jack

[taylorce1]

Old Roper when I said old AI data I was talking about the stuff published before Nosler came out with their new data. As far as not comparing cartridges, I do it all the time but that doesn't stop me from building or buying something I want. My point I guess in the whole thing is the .280 AI looks impressive if you only look at Nosler's data. However the truth for me was that a properly loaded .280 will get within 50 fps of most AI data. The only thing your going to really gain by using the .280 AI chamber is longer brass life, and less trimming.

Jack, while I don't doubt the author approached or beat the 7mm Rem Mag in some cases with the .280 AI. If you are launching the same bullet as fast or faster than a larger cartridge then recoil is going to be very similar. On Hogdon's web site they list an H4831 load for both cartridges using 140 grain bullet, the .280 AI uses 62 grains compressed to get to 3025 fps and the 7mm RM uses 64 grains to reach 2950 fps. If you plug that into a recoil calculator using an 8lbs rifle you'll find the .280 AI recoils slightly harder and faster. Now you build a 7 lbs hunting rifle in a .280 AI vs. the 8lbs 7mm RM and your going to notice the recoil difference even more.

Again this is because the .280 is operating at higher pressures (or my theory anyway) to achieve the speed everyone so desires out of the case. Now if you take the Retumbo load for the 7mm RM which uses 75 grains Compressed and produces 3100 fps then you see the recoil switch in favor of the smaller .280 AI if the rifles are equal weight. If the .280 is a pound lighter, it recoils a little faster but with less ft-lbs of energy so I'd imagine felt recoil would be about the same. So IMO building a .280 AI for all the performance of a 7mm RM in a smaller package with less recoil is a myth.

[jmr40]

I considered the AI until my gunsmith advised trying a 280 with 26" barrel first. I could push 140s to 3150, 150s to 3000, and 160s to 2850 with RL-19 and IMR 4831. Not bad.

If someone just enjoys being different then the 280 or 280 AI is a good choice. But for someone looking for performance gains they will be disappointed. You can go into any sporting goods store and buy a 270 rifle and ammo off the shelf that will equal those numbers from a 24" barrel.

I've owned a couple 280's in the past. Nothing at all wrong with them, but I'm too practical minded to keep them just to be different. Had the 280 been first then there would be no need for the 270 or even 30-06. But it wasn't first.