One Shot Stops Database - Page 4

Webleymkv · January 24, 2009, 09:19 AM

Deet, while I agree that all else held equal a magnum revolver is probably better than the majority of popular semi-auto cartridges and non-magnum revolvers, you must remember that all typically is not equal. Many people simply cannot shoot a .357 or .44 Magnum quickly and accurately and are thusly better served with a less powerful cartridge since no amount of power will compensate for poor shot placement. Likewise, it must be remembered that no handgun cartridge is guaranteed to stop someone with a single shot (most rifle cartridges short of a .50 BMG aren't either). Finally, all handguns benifet from good bullets. I'd much rather have a 9mm or .38 Special with good quality JHP than a .357 or .44 Magnum with non-expanding bullets. If you do a search, you'll probably find an old thread comparing 9mm JHP to .45ACP FMJ, the vast majority of those posting said they would choose the 9mm JHP.

orionengnr · January 24, 2009, 09:37 AM

^^^^Deet:
Just to clarify:
"Firepower" is generally defined as round count. A Glock G-17 has "firepower"; a .357 Mag is a powerful round.

That said, I agree with the rest of your post.

Brian Pfleuger · January 24, 2009, 10:15 AM

Quote:

"Firepower" is generally defined as round count. A Glock G-17 has "firepower"; a .357 Mag is a powerful round.

So an M1 Abrams with one round has less firepower than a Glock 36?

Just kidding, trying to pick a fight.

No, just kidding again...

Larry Spencer · January 24, 2009, 10:57 AM

..

Socrates · January 25, 2009, 01:11 AM

My idea of stopping power.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZCCb...eature=related

That said, are the failures to one shot stop from lack of caliber, or placement?

Socrates · January 25, 2009, 01:18 AM

On a more serious note:

At distances that actual SD shootings might take place, I'll take the .510 or .475 over 9mm. I'm not likely to get off a lot of shots on target anyway, and, the ones I have to get off better hit their target.

Huey Long · January 25, 2009, 01:37 AM

Quote:

My idea of stopping power.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZCCb...eature=related

<<<Deleted Link>>>

**JohnKSa** · January 25, 2009, 01:41 AM

Huey Long,

I deleted the link from your post because it was not gun related. If you did not mean to post a link to Tony Smith preaching then you're welcome to edit your post and put in the link you meant to post.

MarineCorpsAT · January 28, 2009, 07:27 PM

I think that things like this need to be taken with a grain of salt.

It seems that the talk about caliber is a never ending one. Kinda reminds me of the Ford v chevy debate that never seems to end.

The reality is that there are so many variables that go into how well a bullet will stop the target that it hits that no study will be able to provide accurate all inclusive data. A BB can stop an attack if the attacker is not too determined so what does it prove? That anything is better than nothing.

With the differences in firearms the variables of size, shape, determination, and presence of other "substances" IE alcohol and drugs in the body of the attacker and the skill of the shooter all coming into play there will never be an all incompasing answer to the question of which caliber is better.

Really it all comes down to what you prefer and shoot best. but in saying that remember that ones personal preference does not mean that it is the best.

nate45 · January 28, 2009, 10:19 PM

This following is interesting, sort of, or maybe not, depending on the individual.

Back in the 80s I used the Speer 200 grain HP, over 11 grains of Unique in my .45 Colt and the 125 grain Sierra JHP over 18 grains of 2400 with a magnum primer, in my .357. At the time I felt like these were good defense loads, that would perform well given the then current state of bullet technology.

I currently use the Speer 250 grain Gold Dot over 17.5 grains of 2400 in .45 Colt and the 180 grain Nosler Partition HG over 14 grains of H110. While there are other acceptable choices that are currently available, I personally feel that those are two of the best preforming projectiles currently available.

L to R, Speer 200 grain JHP, Speer 250 grain GD, 125 grain Sierra, 180 grain Nosler HG.

Now the point of my post is, that although I believe that I'm using the best projectiles currently available in those calibers; would I feel at a great disadvantage, or under gunned if I were still using the loads I did in the 80s. The answer is no I would not. They are still fully capable of doing what they were intended to do, which is severely wound, kill and/or incapacitate someone.

Also at that time I used the 200 grain SWC, 230 grain FMJ or the Remington 230 grain HP for SD loads in my .45 ACPs, although I now use the 230 grain XTP in my .45 ACPs, I feel the same way about all of those, I would still use them and feel confident.

Round nose lead, full metal jacket and lead semi wadcutter bullets from the past are just as deadly as they ever where, which is very. Like Mike Irwin once opined when someone asked if a .38 Special was still effective, 'No, nowadays the RNL .38 actually heals people who are shot with it', or something to that effect. You get the idea of what he was trying to convey, of course it is still deadly and effective.

We all want validation and to have our confidence in our chosen defense rounds capabilities bolstered. I wish there were some certain way, to garantee a certain outcome, but there isn't. The simple truth is that despite all the past shootings and all the ballistic testing, there is no precise indicator of exactly how the shooting incident you might be involved in will transpire, or conclude.

tl;dr There are no magic bullets. Bullets of old, or modern, design can work if properly placed.

100_0753.JPG

Socrates · February 2, 2009, 07:39 PM

Nate45:
I agree with your progress. I used to have my seville loaded with 260 grain Sierra HPS at 1450 fps. Didn't recoil THAT bad, and, I had confidence that if it would do in a black bear, it would likewise take care of the bad guys that have come after me. For what it's worth, everyone that's ever tried to fight, or attack me has been over 6'2" tall, and, at least 230.
Haven't been many, but, that seems to be the bottomline.

That said, I found the roar of the 45 better then the bark of the 357, and, up until my snubbie, have never needed a 357 for defense.

Right now it's loaded with Fioochi 148's at 1131 fps. That's all I can shoot combat accurate out of it. I've tried heavier bullets, and, they recoil too much for me.

I'd rather have heavier bullets, but, the 148's are all I can handle.

Given my backstop situation, I'd use the best penetrating bullet I can get for caliber, read heaviest.

I do NOT like 200-230 grain bullet in 45 much. Unless they are going, really fast. I used to shoot a lot of ball ammo, and out of my Seville, it should have been going around 1700 fps, or faster.

January 25, 2009, 01:41 AM	#83
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,989	Huey Long, I deleted the link from your post because it was not gun related. If you did not mean to post a link to Tony Smith preaching then you're welcome to edit your post and put in the link you meant to post. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

January 28, 2009, 10:19 PM	#85
nate45 Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2007 Location: Illinois Posts: 3,746	This following is interesting, sort of, or maybe not, depending on the individual. Back in the 80s I used the Speer 200 grain HP, over 11 grains of Unique in my .45 Colt and the 125 grain Sierra JHP over 18 grains of 2400 with a magnum primer, in my .357. At the time I felt like these were good defense loads, that would perform well given the then current state of bullet technology. I currently use the Speer 250 grain Gold Dot over 17.5 grains of 2400 in .45 Colt and the 180 grain Nosler Partition HG over 14 grains of H110. While there are other acceptable choices that are currently available, I personally feel that those are two of the best preforming projectiles currently available. L to R, Speer 200 grain JHP, Speer 250 grain GD, 125 grain Sierra, 180 grain Nosler HG. Now the point of my post is, that although I believe that I'm using the best projectiles currently available in those calibers; would I feel at a great disadvantage, or under gunned if I were still using the loads I did in the 80s. The answer is no I would not. They are still fully capable of doing what they were intended to do, which is severely wound, kill and/or incapacitate someone. Also at that time I used the 200 grain SWC, 230 grain FMJ or the Remington 230 grain HP for SD loads in my .45 ACPs, although I now use the 230 grain XTP in my .45 ACPs, I feel the same way about all of those, I would still use them and feel confident. Round nose lead, full metal jacket and lead semi wadcutter bullets from the past are just as deadly as they ever where, which is very. Like Mike Irwin once opined when someone asked if a .38 Special was still effective, 'No, nowadays the RNL .38 actually heals people who are shot with it', or something to that effect. You get the idea of what he was trying to convey, of course it is still deadly and effective. We all want validation and to have our confidence in our chosen defense rounds capabilities bolstered. I wish there were some certain way, to garantee a certain outcome, but there isn't. The simple truth is that despite all the past shootings and all the ballistic testing, there is no precise indicator of exactly how the shooting incident you might be involved in will transpire, or conclude. tl;dr There are no magic bullets. Bullets of old, or modern, design can work if properly placed. 100_0753.JPG __________________ "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ (>_<)

January 24, 2009, 09:19 AM	#76
Webleymkv Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 10,446	Deet, while I agree that all else held equal a magnum revolver is probably better than the majority of popular semi-auto cartridges and non-magnum revolvers, you must remember that all typically is not equal. Many people simply cannot shoot a .357 or .44 Magnum quickly and accurately and are thusly better served with a less powerful cartridge since no amount of power will compensate for poor shot placement. Likewise, it must be remembered that no handgun cartridge is guaranteed to stop someone with a single shot (most rifle cartridges short of a .50 BMG aren't either). Finally, all handguns benifet from good bullets. I'd much rather have a 9mm or .38 Special with good quality JHP than a .357 or .44 Magnum with non-expanding bullets. If you do a search, you'll probably find an old thread comparing 9mm JHP to .45ACP FMJ, the vast majority of those posting said they would choose the 9mm JHP.

January 24, 2009, 09:37 AM	#77
orionengnr Senior Member Join Date: July 9, 2004 Posts: 5,177	^^^^Deet: Just to clarify: "Firepower" is generally defined as round count. A Glock G-17 has "firepower"; a .357 Mag is a powerful round. That said, I agree with the rest of your post.

January 24, 2009, 10:57 AM	#79
Larry Spencer Member Join Date: January 9, 2009 Posts: 66	..

January 25, 2009, 01:11 AM	#80
Socrates Junior member Join Date: January 5, 2005 Location: East Bay NorCal, People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 5,866	My idea of stopping power. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZCCb...eature=related That said, are the failures to one shot stop from lack of caliber, or placement?

January 25, 2009, 01:18 AM	#81
Socrates Junior member Join Date: January 5, 2005 Location: East Bay NorCal, People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 5,866	On a more serious note: At distances that actual SD shootings might take place, I'll take the .510 or .475 over 9mm. I'm not likely to get off a lot of shots on target anyway, and, the ones I have to get off better hit their target.

January 28, 2009, 07:27 PM	#84
MarineCorpsAT Member Join Date: October 4, 2007 Posts: 81	I think that things like this need to be taken with a grain of salt. It seems that the talk about caliber is a never ending one. Kinda reminds me of the Ford v chevy debate that never seems to end. The reality is that there are so many variables that go into how well a bullet will stop the target that it hits that no study will be able to provide accurate all inclusive data. A BB can stop an attack if the attacker is not too determined so what does it prove? That anything is better than nothing. With the differences in firearms the variables of size, shape, determination, and presence of other "substances" IE alcohol and drugs in the body of the attacker and the skill of the shooter all coming into play there will never be an all incompasing answer to the question of which caliber is better. Really it all comes down to what you prefer and shoot best. but in saying that remember that ones personal preference does not mean that it is the best.

February 2, 2009, 07:39 PM	#86
Socrates Junior member Join Date: January 5, 2005 Location: East Bay NorCal, People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 5,866	Nate45: I agree with your progress. I used to have my seville loaded with 260 grain Sierra HPS at 1450 fps. Didn't recoil THAT bad, and, I had confidence that if it would do in a black bear, it would likewise take care of the bad guys that have come after me. For what it's worth, everyone that's ever tried to fight, or attack me has been over 6'2" tall, and, at least 230. Haven't been many, but, that seems to be the bottomline. That said, I found the roar of the 45 better then the bark of the 357, and, up until my snubbie, have never needed a 357 for defense. Right now it's loaded with Fioochi 148's at 1131 fps. That's all I can shoot combat accurate out of it. I've tried heavier bullets, and, they recoil too much for me. I'd rather have heavier bullets, but, the 148's are all I can handle. Given my backstop situation, I'd use the best penetrating bullet I can get for caliber, read heaviest. I do NOT like 200-230 grain bullet in 45 much. Unless they are going, really fast. I used to shoot a lot of ball ammo, and out of my Seville, it should have been going around 1700 fps, or faster.