Center of Mass with a Shotgun?

priv8ter · October 14, 2002, 02:08 PM

The recent question about using birdshot for home defence caused me to pause for a moment to reflect.

When I practice with my pistol, an H&K USP .40S&W, I always practice aiming for the Center of Mass. Now, I know COM means different things to different people, but to me, I aim at the middle of the torso. I am confident that a few 180 grain Golden Sabre's can reek havoc in the chest cavity, even if they don't shut down the central nervous system.

With my shotgun though, I find myself aiming higher, like more the face and neck area. I guess I have little confidence in either birdshot, or the Number 4 buck I have in my shotgun now to penetrate a few layers of clothes and then cause massive torso damage. I would rather concentrate the pellets on the soft tissues of the face and throat.

Am I way out to lunch on this, or does what I am saying and practicing make sence to other people?

El Rojo · October 14, 2002, 02:20 PM

Woah! Ok, how long is the longest single shot you might possibly take in your house? From the end of my hall to the far wall in my living room is about 10-12 yards. First, #4 buck anywhere less than 12 yards is not going to sting. I have done head shots on steel targets with 00 buck at 7.5 yards in a shotgun match. The pattern is not going to expand much in the 5 yards or so you might be shooting someone in your house. Take your shotgun out with your birdshot loads and shoot it at paper at about 10 yards. Then at about 5 yards. See what the pattern looks like.

Your shotgun with any kind of load is going to be fairly deadly from 5 yards or less if you hit them in the upper body. If you are aiming for the face or neck, even more deadly (yes there is a difference in the two types of deadlys!!!

). As always, if you shoot them in the gut and they are still moving in a manner that threatens your safety, shoot them again.

Take your shotgun out and pattern it. Shoot some wet phone books at close range. As I found out at the shotgun match where I had to make 7.5 yard head shots with 00 buck on a bad guy standing behind a friendly, you never know until you try. I would have never thought I could do such a thing. Well I did. Go use up some ammo and figure out your limitations. Heck, I need to do that myself.

CMichael · October 14, 2002, 02:42 PM

Your shotgun even with birdshot is going to have much more stopping power than your handgun. Any place you hit them will be sufficient.

I suggest aim in the middle of the street.

Imagine about 350 pellets in mostly a solid mass hitting someone at very fast velocity.

In fact if you fire it through a dry wall even birdshot will most likely penetrate through.

Michael

bobs1066 · October 14, 2002, 07:30 PM

IIRC, several authors in the safari business have recommended 12ga shotguns for extreme close-range work on lions. That's a pretty serious endorsement of stopping power.

Of course, how often do you get to shoot a lion in your pajamas?

Zander · October 14, 2002, 07:45 PM

A 12- or 20-gauge shotgun with any normal load delivered to center mass at close range will cause a devastating wound. Not many home-invaders would survive such serious damage.

You're not "out of touch"...you just need to aim a little lower.

Coronach · October 14, 2002, 08:31 PM

hey! Did you know we have a shotgun forum here on TFL? Its pretty cool.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...p?s=&forumid=2

Mike

MikeTx · October 14, 2002, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Of course, how often do you get to shoot a lion in your pajamas?

If I caught a lion in my pajamas, I'd blast his a$$!

Long Path · October 14, 2002, 09:22 PM

'T'would ruin your jammies.

It's best to practice like you'll play. In reality, aiming for C.O.M. is easiest in the heat of battle. C.O.M. for a human, facing you, is just north of the belly button, I suggest that anyone perforated by an ounce of lead traveling at 1300 fps just at the lower tip of the sternum is going to be very sick, indeed, and will be stopped.

Something folks forget-- average spread is less than 1 inch per yard. Your longest shots in your house are unlikely to be more than 15 yards, max. At across-the-room distances, you can very easily miss an entire head. I'm serious. Go shoot a tactical shotgun match sometime, and watch guys miss standing 10" plates from 7 yards. Happens all the time. So in a 25 foot hallway, you've got at best an 8" cone to use to stop your agressor now. (No-- yesterday!) Use your greatest margin for error-- Center Of Mass.

Remember also that you have to account for where every pellet of shot goes. Don't think that birdshot will penetrate sheetrock walls? Think again. It will penetrate several of them.

And, noting the good advice of Mr. Coronach, I now send this thread to the Shotgun forum. Carry on!

priv8ter · October 14, 2002, 09:44 PM

Well, I'm glad you moved my post, and yes, I know there is a Shotgun forum, Mr. Coronach. The reason I posted in the GDF and not the shotgun forum is I am comparing the aiming point of a HANDGUN to the aiming point of a SHOTGUN.

But, don't think I don't appretiate the advise offered up so far. Having done some patterning with this gun, I don't get 8 inch groups at 10 yards. Maybe since it's Halloween, I need to buy a few overripe pumpkins to simulate torso shots.

Demi Barbito · October 15, 2002, 09:15 AM

Try hanging some old shirts/jackets on target stands and shoot the with your current loads. See the results.

We do this often and there is fabric everywhere.

There is some merit to the "will not penetrate clothes well" argument. But a hefty shirt is definately not body armor.

Demi

www.DemiBarbito.com

CMichael · October 15, 2002, 11:35 AM

I suggest aim in the middle of the street<<

I meant in the middle of the chest. Sorry.

Dave McC · October 16, 2002, 05:22 AM

To quote a salty old instructor and veteran that was one of my many mentors....

"Draw an imaginary line between the target's nipples, bisect it with the center of your load, and do it fast. If he/she isn't facing you directly, send the load into the spine at that level"....

archeryfanatic · October 16, 2002, 05:46 AM

Quote:

If he/she isn't facing you directly, send the load into the spine at that level"....

Gonna have a tough time explaining this to the court....

jmlv · October 16, 2002, 01:45 PM

MASS(ad Ayoob) he is libable to shoot back<VBG>
sorry could'nt help it. watched massad & taylor video last night
"center of mass, god I hate that saying" Massad Ayoob.

kobun · October 16, 2002, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Go shoot a tactical shotgun match sometime, and watch guys miss standing 10" plates from 7 yards.

Been there...
Missed the pepper popper TWICE!!!

Benelli M1, 8 meters, 6 poppers. Missed twice on the same one. Had to do a reload and dropped waaaaaay down the result list.

Taught me that on real close ranges, I need to aim much more than on the long distances.
That was a free lesson for you guys.

Dave McC · October 16, 2002, 07:14 PM

Not really, Archeryfan. A surprising number of crises get resolved at angles. Ask any old combat infantryman. Shooting in war has few rules except...

WIN!!...

Bruce626 · October 17, 2002, 09:00 PM

Front, side, standing on his head... it doesn't matter... shoot at and hit the thick part. With a 12 ga that is probably enough.

Unless of course, you've been taught to only take head shots and, just to prove you're among the elite, specialize in doing only left eyesocket shots.

October 14, 2002, 02:08 PM	#1
priv8ter Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2002 Location: Silverdale, Wa Posts: 356	Center of Mass with a Shotgun? The recent question about using birdshot for home defence caused me to pause for a moment to reflect. When I practice with my pistol, an H&K USP .40S&W, I always practice aiming for the Center of Mass. Now, I know COM means different things to different people, but to me, I aim at the middle of the torso. I am confident that a few 180 grain Golden Sabre's can reek havoc in the chest cavity, even if they don't shut down the central nervous system. With my shotgun though, I find myself aiming higher, like more the face and neck area. I guess I have little confidence in either birdshot, or the Number 4 buck I have in my shotgun now to penetrate a few layers of clothes and then cause massive torso damage. I would rather concentrate the pellets on the soft tissues of the face and throat. Am I way out to lunch on this, or does what I am saying and practicing make sence to other people? __________________ "Get a shot off fast. This upsets him long enough to make your second shot perfect" "Never underestimate the power of human stupidity" -Lazerus Long

October 14, 2002, 02:20 PM	#2
El Rojo Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2000 Location: People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 2,057	Woah! Ok, how long is the longest single shot you might possibly take in your house? From the end of my hall to the far wall in my living room is about 10-12 yards. First, #4 buck anywhere less than 12 yards is not going to sting. I have done head shots on steel targets with 00 buck at 7.5 yards in a shotgun match. The pattern is not going to expand much in the 5 yards or so you might be shooting someone in your house. Take your shotgun out with your birdshot loads and shoot it at paper at about 10 yards. Then at about 5 yards. See what the pattern looks like. Your shotgun with any kind of load is going to be fairly deadly from 5 yards or less if you hit them in the upper body. If you are aiming for the face or neck, even more deadly (yes there is a difference in the two types of deadlys!!! ). As always, if you shoot them in the gut and they are still moving in a manner that threatens your safety, shoot them again. Take your shotgun out and pattern it. Shoot some wet phone books at close range. As I found out at the shotgun match where I had to make 7.5 yard head shots with 00 buck on a bad guy standing behind a friendly, you never know until you try. I would have never thought I could do such a thing. Well I did. Go use up some ammo and figure out your limitations. Heck, I need to do that myself. __________________ Get Some!

October 14, 2002, 08:31 PM	#6
Coronach Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 1999 Posts: 3,147	hey! Did you know we have a shotgun forum here on TFL? Its pretty cool. http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...p?s=&forumid=2 Mike __________________ The axe bites into the door, ripping a hole in one panel. The maniac puts his face into the hole, cackling gleefully, "Here's Johnny...erk." "And here's Smith and Wesson," murmurs Coronach, Mozambiquing six rounds of .357 into the critter at a range of three feet. -Lawdog "True pacifism is the finest form of manliness. But if a man comes up to you and cuts your hand off, you don't just offer him the other one. Not if you want to go on playing the piano, you don't." -Sam Peckinpah "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein

October 14, 2002, 09:22 PM	#8
Long Path Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 1999 Location: N. Texas Posts: 5,899	'T'would ruin your jammies. It's best to practice like you'll play. In reality, aiming for C.O.M. is easiest in the heat of battle. C.O.M. for a human, facing you, is just north of the belly button, I suggest that anyone perforated by an ounce of lead traveling at 1300 fps just at the lower tip of the sternum is going to be very sick, indeed, and will be stopped. Something folks forget-- average spread is less than 1 inch per yard. Your longest shots in your house are unlikely to be more than 15 yards, max. At across-the-room distances, you can very easily miss an entire head. I'm serious. Go shoot a tactical shotgun match sometime, and watch guys miss standing 10" plates from 7 yards. Happens all the time. So in a 25 foot hallway, you've got at best an 8" cone to use to stop your agressor now. (No-- yesterday!) Use your greatest margin for error-- Center Of Mass. Remember also that you have to account for where every pellet of shot goes. Don't think that birdshot will penetrate sheetrock walls? Think again. It will penetrate several of them. And, noting the good advice of Mr. Coronach, I now send this thread to the Shotgun forum. Carry on! __________________ "Welcome to The Firing Line, a virtual community dedicated to the discussion and advancement of responsible firearms ownership."T.F.L. Policy Page Will you, too, be one who stands in the gap? ____________

October 14, 2002, 09:44 PM	#9
priv8ter Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2002 Location: Silverdale, Wa Posts: 356	REALLY????? Well, I'm glad you moved my post, and yes, I know there is a Shotgun forum, Mr. Coronach. The reason I posted in the GDF and not the shotgun forum is I am comparing the aiming point of a HANDGUN to the aiming point of a SHOTGUN. But, don't think I don't appretiate the advise offered up so far. Having done some patterning with this gun, I don't get 8 inch groups at 10 yards. Maybe since it's Halloween, I need to buy a few overripe pumpkins to simulate torso shots. __________________ "Get a shot off fast. This upsets him long enough to make your second shot perfect" "Never underestimate the power of human stupidity" -Lazerus Long

October 14, 2002, 02:42 PM	#3
CMichael Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2001 Location: MI Posts: 1,516	Your shotgun even with birdshot is going to have much more stopping power than your handgun. Any place you hit them will be sufficient. I suggest aim in the middle of the street. Imagine about 350 pellets in mostly a solid mass hitting someone at very fast velocity. In fact if you fire it through a dry wall even birdshot will most likely penetrate through. Michael

October 14, 2002, 07:30 PM	#4
bobs1066 Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: Eastern Kansas Posts: 222	IIRC, several authors in the safari business have recommended 12ga shotguns for extreme close-range work on lions. That's a pretty serious endorsement of stopping power. Of course, how often do you get to shoot a lion in your pajamas?

October 14, 2002, 07:45 PM	#5
Zander Junior member Join Date: December 11, 2000 Location: Middle and East Tennessee, USA Posts: 2,059	A 12- or 20-gauge shotgun with any normal load delivered to center mass at close range will cause a devastating wound. Not many home-invaders would survive such serious damage. You're not "out of touch"...you just need to aim a little lower.

October 15, 2002, 09:15 AM	#10
Demi Barbito Member Join Date: March 30, 2000 Location: Ca. Posts: 22	Try hanging some old shirts/jackets on target stands and shoot the with your current loads. See the results. We do this often and there is fabric everywhere. There is some merit to the "will not penetrate clothes well" argument. But a hefty shirt is definately not body armor. Demi www.DemiBarbito.com __________________ Demi Barbito The CSPT www.DemiBarbito.com

October 15, 2002, 11:35 AM	#11
CMichael Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2001 Location: MI Posts: 1,516	I suggest aim in the middle of the street<< I meant in the middle of the chest. Sorry.

October 16, 2002, 05:22 AM	#12
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	To quote a salty old instructor and veteran that was one of my many mentors.... "Draw an imaginary line between the target's nipples, bisect it with the center of your load, and do it fast. If he/she isn't facing you directly, send the load into the spine at that level"....

October 16, 2002, 01:45 PM	#14
jmlv Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2001 Location: PA AMERICA STARTS HERE! Posts: 739	seriously if you point that shotgun at MASS(ad Ayoob) he is libable to shoot back<VBG> sorry could'nt help it. watched massad & taylor video last night "center of mass, god I hate that saying" Massad Ayoob. __________________ JMLV NEW PA RESIDENT TFL ALUMNUS MOLON LABE!

October 16, 2002, 07:14 PM	#16
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Not really, Archeryfan. A surprising number of crises get resolved at angles. Ask any old combat infantryman. Shooting in war has few rules except... WIN!!...

October 17, 2002, 09:00 PM	#17
Bruce626 Senior Member Join Date: June 26, 2002 Location: Handgun-Free Chicago thanks to Gun-grabber Daley Posts: 167	Front, side, standing on his head... it doesn't matter... shoot at and hit the thick part. With a 12 ga that is probably enough. Unless of course, you've been taught to only take head shots and, just to prove you're among the elite, specialize in doing only left eyesocket shots.