Remington 11-87 or Benelli M1/M3

SoCal Shooter · May 18, 2000, 11:49 AM

I'm interested in buying a shotgun. I have about $850 to spend. It seems like the best I can get for the money I have now is the Remington 11-87 Police version for $780. With taxes and everything I figure I'll just have enough money. The Benellis seem nice but I can't afford them right now. Are the Benellis that much better to not buy the Remington and save up for one? Thoughts everybody?

P.S. This is my first post.

brionic · May 18, 2000, 12:38 PM

If you are anywhere near Los Angeles, you should check B&B in North Hollywood. (They are the shop that provided the ARs in the infamous North Hollywood duck shoot)

Late last week they had a used M1S90, with 7 shot magazine and Ghost Rings, for about $799. Condition seemed excellent, but I didn't give it a thourough going over. Seemed like a fine price. (818) 985-2329.

Regards,
--
Brian

jthuang · May 18, 2000, 03:57 PM

I think it all boils down to whether you would prefer a gas gun to an inertia gun.

I have a M1 Super 90 which I got when CDNN was closing out the last HK-stamped Benelli shotguns. Around here you can find M1S90s for $750-850 so I don't think they are out of your price range.

Both gas and inertia guns have their advantages and disadvantages.

Gas guns are more reliable when you start adding bells and whistles to your gun. When you start adding sidesaddles and Surefires to an inertia-operated gun, you change the inertia of the gun (inertia is directly proportional to mass). Gas guns don't care about the mass of the gun, you just gotta have enough gas to cycle the action.

If you buy an inertia-operated gun, you MAY experience reliability problems when using light (i.e., field or tactical) loads with a fully-loaded TacStar sidesaddle and Surefire Responder weapon-mounted light. My M1S90 has a Responder but no sidesaddle and it has never choked with Federal tactical loads or light field loads. Even if you do decide on an inertia gun and all the bells and whistles, Benelli and Wolff Gunsprings offer a special recoil spring that fixes the problem. Or you could use standard 2.75" loads....

Inertia guns also have less parts than gas guns. Less parts, more reliability.

However, gas guns are harder to maintain. Cleaning is more difficult and more important. I once left my Benelli sit for an entire year without cleaning inside the receiver, using it through the normal competition season. I would only swab out the barrel, keeping the bore nice and shiny. I opened it up and barely had to do any cleaning whatsoever -- inertia guns don't build up fouling like the gas guns. Thus, gas guns can start giving you reliability problems if you don't keep them clean, especially after heavy usage.

Therefore, to keep your shotgun reliable:

1. Don't load the inertia gun down with too many accessories.

2. Keep the gas gun clean.

If you really want an inertia semi-auto, why not the Beretta 1201FP? It uses the exact same action as the Benelli, all for dealer price of around $380-420. Control placement is a bit different and you lose one round of capacity but hey you save $300-400 and it's not looking that bad. The 1201FP, while sometimes hard to find, is an excellent gun -- my best buddy uses one and not only that, John Farnam uses one as his personal defense shotgun.

HTH,

Justin

------------------
Justin T. Huang, Esq.
late of Kennett Square, Pennsylvania

May 18, 2000, 04:18 PM

There's also a B&B outlet in Westminster, if you're in Orange County. I'm still kicking myself for not buying several Glocks for $439 there.

I asked this once before, and didn't get any response, so now's as good a time as any: how do inertial shotguns work?

Monkeyleg · May 18, 2000, 04:44 PM

SoCalShooter, I got my M1 Benelli from Chesters in New York for $815 including shipping. They were very good to deal with.
Phone is 631-696-3800. Saved me about $100 based on dealers in my area.

Dick

pete80 · May 18, 2000, 05:13 PM

Spend the money and go with the Benelli. Without all the tactical crap like lights and other gizzmo's, the gun is far superior to the Remington 11-87. The gas action of the 11-87 will foul up on you after extended firing periods. The inertia action of the Benelli just keeps on working. The action and bore of the Benelli is chrome lined for increased protection from the elements.

The Benelli is the "REAL DEAL" of auto-loading shotguns.

jthuang · May 18, 2000, 05:42 PM

Jeff, I'd like to know the same thing. I'm no physics major -- my training was in corporate finance and electrical engineering (we only had to take 3 semesters of physics).

My best guess is that the inertia action must be like a blowback gun. The cartridge must overcome the inertia of the bolt to unlock the mechanism?

Justin

Dave McC · May 19, 2000, 05:45 AM

Inertia shotguns use the recoil of the round to cycle the action. I'm no engineer either, so I can't get technical.

A quick Query...

For the prices y'all are talking about, one could get two 870s,with their matchless reputation, a bit of ammo, and dinner at a good restaurant with the Mrs. Just what do you get for all that cash that an 870 cannot supply? Thanks...

jthuang · May 19, 2000, 07:56 AM

Dave,

I think it all boils down to the "semi-auto vs pump" argument. That extra money is spent on the advantages of the semi-auto, while taking into consideration the disadvantages of that particular platform.

My buddy bought his Beretta 1201FP for $459 at a gunshow here in Philadelphia. IMHO it's one of the best semi-auto shotgun deals around. My only beef with the Beretta: (1) you lose one round of capacity; (2) most of them come with rifle sights (hard to find ghost rings); and (3) front sling attachment gets in the way of a Surefire Responder.

Justin

------------------
Justin T. Huang, Esq.
late of Kennett Square, Pennsylvania

Skorzeny · May 19, 2000, 03:46 PM

Does the Beretta 1201FP have a chrome-lined barrel, too, like the Benellis?

Skorzeny

------------------
For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

ElementX · May 22, 2000, 01:40 AM

I bought a benelli M1 about 2-3 months ago. At the time, I just wanted to get a shotgun to do some skeet (probably only like 4 times a yr) and throw it in the gun cabinet as another option for home defense. I read tons of posts about the remington 870 vs. mossberg 500/590. I went down to B&B in OC to check them out, but they only had the remington 870. I checked it out, and wasnt too impressed. Then i saw that they were selling the benelli M1 with pistol grip. I had just shot one of those babies the previous week when i went skeet shooting for the first time with a friend. I also got to try his mossberg 500. Anyways, when i saw the benelli M1 w/pistol grip, i made an impulse buy and spent 3 times what i was planning to spend on a shotgun. I had thought the bastards running kalifornia had included the M1 in their SB23 ban, but turns out they didnt so i was excited and bought it. I think it was $899, i cant remember right now, i just know it cost an arm and a leg.

The next day, i was half regretting throwing down all that money, because for that much I could of gotten one of the pump shotguns i was planning on getting, and a glock. But once i got the benelli and put it together 10 days later, there were no regrets. I have to say it is the sweetest firearm I own. The quality is 1st class and the action is awesome. It works to perfection like a well oiled machine. It does have problems with low recoil loads, but otherwise its badass. After the first time i used it at the range (indoor), i took it apart for cleaning and it was hardly dirty. My pistol and AR15 (after a day of shooting) are like 100 times dirtier compared to the benelli.

I say get the benelli. It rocks!

[This message has been edited by ElementX (edited May 22, 2000).]

Dave McC · May 22, 2000, 04:30 AM

Thanks, Justin. Gotta admit that I see little use in a shotgun that doesn't cycle with low power loads,costs more than twice as much as one that does,and is made overseas, but to each his own...

jthuang · May 22, 2000, 10:37 AM

Dave,

You're right, to each his or her own. Not trying to start an argument, just pointing out that semi-autos do have their pros (and cons!).

For example, I'm sure in the course of your training you put the rookies through the one-handed drill. Doing the Linda Hamilton method (or the put-the-shotgun-between-your-legs drill) can be learned but a semi-auto makes it a lot easier.

Also, consider the difficulty with operating a pump gun in rollover prone or the supine position. Not impossible but a semi-auto makes it easier. Some people have trouble with using a pump gun in the standard prone position. Training can fix that but again a semi-auto makes it easy.

Short-shucking will plague novice pump gun users as well. Again, training can fix this situation. Semi-autos don't suffer from this problem.

Most (if not all) the reputable semi-auto shotguns will cycle light loads without a hitch. The inertia-operated guns, when not burdened with excessive bells and whistles, will cycle air. The gas guns will do the same, if kept clean and in good condition.

That said, IMHO a pump makes the switch-to-slug drill easier. They are cheaper and you don't have to keep them as clean (when comparing them to a gas gun) for reliable functioning.

So there are good reasons to pick either shotgun -- if you go with the semi-auto, keep it clean (gas gun) or keep it close to stock (inertia gun) and be prepared to spend a bit of money. If you go with the pump, you must train harder but you can save a good bit of cash.

Justin

[This message has been edited by jthuang (edited May 22, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by jthuang (edited May 22, 2000).]

May 18, 2000, 11:49 AM	#1
SoCal Shooter Member Join Date: May 16, 2000 Location: La Jolla, CA, USA Posts: 34	I'm interested in buying a shotgun. I have about $850 to spend. It seems like the best I can get for the money I have now is the Remington 11-87 Police version for $780. With taxes and everything I figure I'll just have enough money. The Benellis seem nice but I can't afford them right now. Are the Benellis that much better to not buy the Remington and save up for one? Thoughts everybody? P.S. This is my first post.

May 18, 2000, 12:38 PM	#2
brionic Member Join Date: July 14, 1999 Location: USA Posts: 87	If you are anywhere near Los Angeles, you should check B&B in North Hollywood. (They are the shop that provided the ARs in the infamous North Hollywood duck shoot) Late last week they had a used M1S90, with 7 shot magazine and Ghost Rings, for about $799. Condition seemed excellent, but I didn't give it a thourough going over. Seemed like a fine price. (818) 985-2329. Regards, -- Brian

May 18, 2000, 03:57 PM	#3
jthuang Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2000 Posts: 823	I think it all boils down to whether you would prefer a gas gun to an inertia gun. I have a M1 Super 90 which I got when CDNN was closing out the last HK-stamped Benelli shotguns. Around here you can find M1S90s for $750-850 so I don't think they are out of your price range. Both gas and inertia guns have their advantages and disadvantages. Gas guns are more reliable when you start adding bells and whistles to your gun. When you start adding sidesaddles and Surefires to an inertia-operated gun, you change the inertia of the gun (inertia is directly proportional to mass). Gas guns don't care about the mass of the gun, you just gotta have enough gas to cycle the action. If you buy an inertia-operated gun, you MAY experience reliability problems when using light (i.e., field or tactical) loads with a fully-loaded TacStar sidesaddle and Surefire Responder weapon-mounted light. My M1S90 has a Responder but no sidesaddle and it has never choked with Federal tactical loads or light field loads. Even if you do decide on an inertia gun and all the bells and whistles, Benelli and Wolff Gunsprings offer a special recoil spring that fixes the problem. Or you could use standard 2.75" loads.... Inertia guns also have less parts than gas guns. Less parts, more reliability. However, gas guns are harder to maintain. Cleaning is more difficult and more important. I once left my Benelli sit for an entire year without cleaning inside the receiver, using it through the normal competition season. I would only swab out the barrel, keeping the bore nice and shiny. I opened it up and barely had to do any cleaning whatsoever -- inertia guns don't build up fouling like the gas guns. Thus, gas guns can start giving you reliability problems if you don't keep them clean, especially after heavy usage. Therefore, to keep your shotgun reliable: 1. Don't load the inertia gun down with too many accessories. 2. Keep the gas gun clean. If you really want an inertia semi-auto, why not the Beretta 1201FP? It uses the exact same action as the Benelli, all for dealer price of around $380-420. Control placement is a bit different and you lose one round of capacity but hey you save $300-400 and it's not looking that bad. The 1201FP, while sometimes hard to find, is an excellent gun -- my best buddy uses one and not only that, John Farnam uses one as his personal defense shotgun. HTH, Justin ------------------ Justin T. Huang, Esq. late of Kennett Square, Pennsylvania

May 18, 2000, 04:18 PM	#4
Jeff, CA Guest Posts: n/a	There's also a B&B outlet in Westminster, if you're in Orange County. I'm still kicking myself for not buying several Glocks for $439 there. I asked this once before, and didn't get any response, so now's as good a time as any: how do inertial shotguns work?

May 18, 2000, 04:44 PM	#5
Monkeyleg Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2000 Posts: 4,625	SoCalShooter, I got my M1 Benelli from Chesters in New York for $815 including shipping. They were very good to deal with. Phone is 631-696-3800. Saved me about $100 based on dealers in my area. Dick

May 18, 2000, 05:13 PM	#6
pete80 Senior Member Join Date: July 4, 1999 Posts: 454	Spend the money and go with the Benelli. Without all the tactical crap like lights and other gizzmo's, the gun is far superior to the Remington 11-87. The gas action of the 11-87 will foul up on you after extended firing periods. The inertia action of the Benelli just keeps on working. The action and bore of the Benelli is chrome lined for increased protection from the elements. The Benelli is the "REAL DEAL" of auto-loading shotguns.

May 18, 2000, 05:42 PM	#7
jthuang Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2000 Posts: 823	Jeff, I'd like to know the same thing. I'm no physics major -- my training was in corporate finance and electrical engineering (we only had to take 3 semesters of physics). My best guess is that the inertia action must be like a blowback gun. The cartridge must overcome the inertia of the bolt to unlock the mechanism? Justin

May 19, 2000, 05:45 AM	#8
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Inertia shotguns use the recoil of the round to cycle the action. I'm no engineer either, so I can't get technical. A quick Query... For the prices y'all are talking about, one could get two 870s,with their matchless reputation, a bit of ammo, and dinner at a good restaurant with the Mrs. Just what do you get for all that cash that an 870 cannot supply? Thanks...

May 19, 2000, 07:56 AM	#9
jthuang Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2000 Posts: 823	Dave, I think it all boils down to the "semi-auto vs pump" argument. That extra money is spent on the advantages of the semi-auto, while taking into consideration the disadvantages of that particular platform. My buddy bought his Beretta 1201FP for $459 at a gunshow here in Philadelphia. IMHO it's one of the best semi-auto shotgun deals around. My only beef with the Beretta: (1) you lose one round of capacity; (2) most of them come with rifle sights (hard to find ghost rings); and (3) front sling attachment gets in the way of a Surefire Responder. Justin ------------------ Justin T. Huang, Esq. late of Kennett Square, Pennsylvania

May 19, 2000, 03:46 PM	#10
Skorzeny Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 1999 Posts: 1,938	Does the Beretta 1201FP have a chrome-lined barrel, too, like the Benellis? Skorzeny ------------------ For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

May 22, 2000, 01:40 AM	#11
ElementX Junior Member Join Date: April 8, 2000 Posts: 7	I bought a benelli M1 about 2-3 months ago. At the time, I just wanted to get a shotgun to do some skeet (probably only like 4 times a yr) and throw it in the gun cabinet as another option for home defense. I read tons of posts about the remington 870 vs. mossberg 500/590. I went down to B&B in OC to check them out, but they only had the remington 870. I checked it out, and wasnt too impressed. Then i saw that they were selling the benelli M1 with pistol grip. I had just shot one of those babies the previous week when i went skeet shooting for the first time with a friend. I also got to try his mossberg 500. Anyways, when i saw the benelli M1 w/pistol grip, i made an impulse buy and spent 3 times what i was planning to spend on a shotgun. I had thought the bastards running kalifornia had included the M1 in their SB23 ban, but turns out they didnt so i was excited and bought it. I think it was $899, i cant remember right now, i just know it cost an arm and a leg. The next day, i was half regretting throwing down all that money, because for that much I could of gotten one of the pump shotguns i was planning on getting, and a glock. But once i got the benelli and put it together 10 days later, there were no regrets. I have to say it is the sweetest firearm I own. The quality is 1st class and the action is awesome. It works to perfection like a well oiled machine. It does have problems with low recoil loads, but otherwise its badass. After the first time i used it at the range (indoor), i took it apart for cleaning and it was hardly dirty. My pistol and AR15 (after a day of shooting) are like 100 times dirtier compared to the benelli. I say get the benelli. It rocks! [This message has been edited by ElementX (edited May 22, 2000).]

May 22, 2000, 04:30 AM	#12
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Thanks, Justin. Gotta admit that I see little use in a shotgun that doesn't cycle with low power loads,costs more than twice as much as one that does,and is made overseas, but to each his own...

May 22, 2000, 10:37 AM	#13
jthuang Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2000 Posts: 823	Dave, You're right, to each his or her own. Not trying to start an argument, just pointing out that semi-autos do have their pros (and cons!). For example, I'm sure in the course of your training you put the rookies through the one-handed drill. Doing the Linda Hamilton method (or the put-the-shotgun-between-your-legs drill) can be learned but a semi-auto makes it a lot easier. Also, consider the difficulty with operating a pump gun in rollover prone or the supine position. Not impossible but a semi-auto makes it easier. Some people have trouble with using a pump gun in the standard prone position. Training can fix that but again a semi-auto makes it easy. Short-shucking will plague novice pump gun users as well. Again, training can fix this situation. Semi-autos don't suffer from this problem. Most (if not all) the reputable semi-auto shotguns will cycle light loads without a hitch. The inertia-operated guns, when not burdened with excessive bells and whistles, will cycle air. The gas guns will do the same, if kept clean and in good condition. That said, IMHO a pump makes the switch-to-slug drill easier. They are cheaper and you don't have to keep them as clean (when comparing them to a gas gun) for reliable functioning. So there are good reasons to pick either shotgun -- if you go with the semi-auto, keep it clean (gas gun) or keep it close to stock (inertia gun) and be prepared to spend a bit of money. If you go with the pump, you must train harder but you can save a good bit of cash. Justin [This message has been edited by jthuang (edited May 22, 2000).] [This message has been edited by jthuang (edited May 22, 2000).]