I need tips to reduce barrel leading.

DaveInPA · March 21, 2008, 08:48 PM

I've been loading 230gr LRN and 185gr LSWC bullets from Missouri Bullet Company. They have a Brinnell hardness rating of 12. I have been getting fairly severe lead fouling in my 1911 barrel.

I've been using W231 and Titegroup, start to medium range loads, not approaching max loads. I'm crimping to .470-.471.

What can I do to reduce leading? I'm getting really discouraged and I'm almost ready to give up on lead and just spend the extra money for FMJ bullets.

Thanks
Dave

wncchester · March 21, 2008, 08:59 PM

Try coating the bullets with a layer of Lee's Liquid Alox Lube.

Check the diameter of the bullets, they should not be less than .452 nor larger than .453. Too small typically leads the bore, too large can also do it.

DaveInPA · March 21, 2008, 09:06 PM

They're .452 diameter bullets. With that lee lube, do I just toss the bullets in a jug with that stuff and toss it around? Does anyone know if a tighter crimp may help?

freakshow10mm · March 21, 2008, 09:14 PM

No, a tighter crimp will not help.

You should be using a load that generates 17K psi. This will (should) give complete obturation (sealing off the bore) and reduce or eliminate the lead problem. Try that.

Your chamber might have a larger throat that allows gas to get around the bullet and cause leading that way.

DaveInPA · March 21, 2008, 09:20 PM

The load I shot today was:

230gr LRN
5.3gr W231

This load is rated at 16,900CUP. How does this relate to PSI?

I got some pretty major leading, all towards the chamber end of the barrel. Had to let it soak with shooter's choice lead remover and then hit it with about 15 passes of a chore boy wrapped brush to get the lead out.

freakshow10mm · March 21, 2008, 09:34 PM

http://www.lasc.us/TaylorLeadingDefined.htm

MrApathy · March 22, 2008, 01:38 AM

titegroup has nitro and tends to burn on the warm side
leading has been reported with it. that said I shoot 147gr .356 9mm load with titegroup and havent had much for leading that doesnt clean out anywhere near difficult or tedious.

lead bullets use a light crimp.
dont know what your COL is you didnt mention it.

older winchester load data list start 4.5gr with 5.1gr maximum charge with win231 with 19,800psi at 5.1gr
due to winchester data crazyness dont know the COL they list maximum COL for all loads which could be ridiculously long.

when seating your bullets are you shaving lead?
how nicely are the bullets chamber? they distorting any on ride up depositing lead on feedramp,chamber or onto casemouth?

whats your barrel throat like check COL see how far out you can seat the bullet without hitting rifling.
carefull adjusting COL or charge.

not familiar with win231 unless is has some weird characteristic would try running the COL out if reliable function will allow if not back off the load .1-.2gr. problem could however be just the opposite not enough pressure or too long a COL. work it slowly and check results often. minor change could fix it or make it worse.

lead bullets can be quite the pita stories I have heard of leading I guess I have been lucky. yet to see the smoothbore effect and dont care to.

Master Blaster · March 22, 2008, 07:09 AM

Buy a bottle of Trail Boss powder get the data from Hodgdon under the regular .45 acp data. Use Lee Liquid Alox, Viola an 800 fps target load, and no leading even with cheap lead bullets.

Trailboss is strictly a target velocity powder for lead bullets.

Edward429451 · March 22, 2008, 09:29 AM

My experiance has shown that leading near the chamber is a size issue or the base of the bullets are damaged / rounded allowing gas cutting beside the bullet. Leading nearer to the muzzle would indicate a lube problem.

Leading in a 45 is almost unheard of. Maybe your bullets are the culprit. I reject a lot of bullets for base issues. Inspect carefully. As far as the size being .452, is that what it says on the box or your calipers? Sometimes they come undersized when checked.

WESHOOT2 · March 22, 2008, 11:26 AM

First I'd suspect the bullets. Measure and weigh them.
Second, your load sounds fine fine fine.
Third, have you shot any/much FMJ from this barrel? And afterwards did you clean it until absolutely spotless?

Then I'd ask myself, "Self, do these lead bullets shoot accurately? And if so, for how many rds before accuracy deteriorates?"

Because if I can shoot over 1,000 rds with no noticeable deterioration why would I clean the bore?

www.schuemann.com

Scott5 · March 22, 2008, 02:58 PM

Hello Dave,
I used to get leading in my 357 mags and 9mm's.

Then I decided to clean the bores untill they were spotless, and shoot jacketed bullets for 500 rounds. Then clean the bores again.

Then load up 250 or so lead bullets that were dipped in MICA.

After that no more leading.

I hope this helps.

Happy shooting.
Scott5

DaveInPA · March 22, 2008, 02:59 PM

What is MICA?

Scott5 · March 22, 2008, 04:04 PM

DaveInPA
What is MICA?

From the can that I bought from MIDWAYUSA:
Dry White Lubricant.
Applications:
*Helps prevent case neck stretch during sizing.
*Refill case graphiters.
*Dust on cast bullets after sizing & lubrication to prevent bullets from sticking together.

I bought a 4oz. can about 20 years ago and have about 1/3 left.

Happy shooting.
Scott5

Casimer · March 22, 2008, 05:21 PM

Mica is a family of minerals that contain silica. These also share the common property of naturally forming in thin, often transparent, sheets.

**Shane Tuttle** · March 22, 2008, 07:58 PM

Quote:

The load I shot today was:

230gr LRN
5.3gr W231

What's your OAL?

In my opinion, I think your powder charge is quite high. IIRC, Hodgdon states 4.3-5.3gr with OAL at 1.200". In general practice, you lower your charge more so at start loads than you do with FMJ recipes. Now, I know the OAL stated is pretty darn short, I still think you should place it at 1.230" and drastically reduce the charge to 4.6gr or so. YMMV.

What I think might be happening is that you're really pushing the lead bullet too much and it's expanding more than needed. Also, with that charge amount, internal temps with increased pressure can't be helping the cause.

I'm by no means an expert. I'm only giving you guidelines, so be sure to research my claims and make an informed decision.

**Unclenick** · March 22, 2008, 10:25 PM

Midway sells the mica in the Frankford Arsenal brand, IIRC. Used as an inside neck lube for sizing rifle cases and used by Hornady to lube their swaged lead bullets. Put the bullets and a little of the Lee liquid Alox in a plastic pan and roll them around until coated. Use a salt shaker to put a little of the mica powder on them while you roll. Take them out an let them dry.

As to leading, keep in mind that Elmer Keith developed the .44 magnum shooting mostly 10:1 lead:tin which is about BHN 10. You don't need hard bullets so much as the right size, orientation, and a smooth gun barrel.

If you are going to shoot lead primarily, it can help both accuracy and leading to have it throated to give a more gradual entry into the rifling and to break the corner of the step onto the freebore to stop it from shaving lead.

The powder charge you have is roughly equivalent to what government FMJ ball loads would use. I know lots of people who ran 4.0 grains of 231 under 185 grain lead bullets for gallery matches. If you are trying to cycle the gun in practice and it doesn't have softball springs, try 4.2 grains. If that doesn't cycle, gt to 4.5 grains. The ball powder doesn't light as easily as Bullseye or N320, so 4.2 to 4.5 grains using a Winchester LP primer or even a magnum primer in another brand can help get the lighter charges burning.

The suggestion to run some hardball through the thing is good. Sometimes the chamber reamer is rough, and the toolmarks need burnishing. You will get more rapid and certain smoothing by firelapping the barrel, though I can't recall having to do that to a .45 ACP before. Usually they are not too rough.

A more common problem is the lead bullets are seated too deeply. When you do that, at firing, the firing pin pushes the cartridge until the extractor hook catches the case, and the case pivots slightly and then the round fires with the bullet at a slight angle. A jacketed bullet can straighten from that, but a lead bullet goes down the barrel slightly tipped, and usually shaving some lead at the edge of the chamber. That promotes gas blowby and inaccuracy and leading. The solution is to seat the bullet out to allow your cartridges to headspace on the bullet itself. (See diagram below.)

Make sure you have at least 0.020" of bullet sticking out of the case ahead of the crimp. A taper crimp on a thick-walled case can narrow the bullet too much, promoting blowby. Having that forward bit of shoulder guarantees adequate diameter at least somewhere on the bullet at its start, and tends to enter the throat before ignition to keep the bullet from tipping.

You can sharpen a case with a chamfering tool and cut wads out of low density polyethylene sheet about a sixteenth of an inch thick. These tend to seal behind the bullet and stop leading pretty completely.

You can make the bore difficult to adhere to by treating it with MolyFusion or Sprinco Plate+. These products will tend to let leading blow clear of the barrel on subsequent shots.

Tim R · March 24, 2008, 02:11 AM

I would bet you are not belling enough. If you only bell enough to accept a bullet, the base of a lead bullet will get moved around when it's seated. I had the same thing going on one of my 1911's and added more bell. Leading went to nothing. Also when shooting lead, I only crimp enough to completely remove the bell.

Lead also sticks to copper so it's a good idea to remove all the copper before shooting lead and visa versa.

scrat · March 24, 2008, 11:46 AM

Quote:

What's your OAL?

In my opinion, I think your powder charge is quite high. IIRC, Hodgdon states 4.3-5.3gr with OAL at 1.200". In general practice, you lower your charge more so at start loads than you do with FMJ recipes. Now, I know the OAL stated is pretty darn short, I still think you should place it at 1.230" and drastically reduce the charge to 4.6gr or so. YMMV.

What I think might be happening is that you're really pushing the lead bullet too much and it's expanding more than needed. Also, with that charge amount, internal temps with increased pressure can't be helping the cause.

I'm by no means an expert. I'm only giving you guidelines, so be sure to research my claims and make an informed decision.

agree sounds like your shooting 45. looking at the load data 5.3 of win231 is a high charge . So first off you need to match the powder to the bullet. Which is not what your doing. Now again Trail Boss is some very good stuff. However if you reduce your load considerably you may get less leading of the barrel. Im a huge fan of trailboss though. Its very good powder especially for lead cast bullets. Using lee liquid alox and reducing your load may eliminate all lead fouling.

scrat · March 24, 2008, 11:51 AM

this is maximum loads for what your using. you should reduce the load from this at least 10% and work up a load rather than work down.

230 grain LSWC or LRN (Semi-Wad Cutter or Round Nose)
(these loads work for the RN Plated bullet,too)
Bullseye 4.0 gr. 810 FPS (target accuracy load)
Bullseye 4.8 gr. 884 hot load/Maximum.
Unique 5.5 gr. 795 (I got 738 fps in my gun)
Unique 5.5 gr. 913 (in Marlin auto carbine)
Unique 6.0 gr. 840* (I got 777 fps in my gun)
Unique 6.0 gr. 924* (in Marlin auto carbine)
Universal 4.8 gr. 782
No. 2 5.6 gr. 870
No. 5 8.5 gr. 968
231 5.1 gr. 870 (I got 734 in my S&W)
540 7.6 gr. 860
WST 4.5 gr. 805
WAP 7.3 gr. 915

March 21, 2008, 08:48 PM	#1
DaveInPA Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2008 Location: Berks County, PA Posts: 1,106	I need tips to reduce barrel leading. I've been loading 230gr LRN and 185gr LSWC bullets from Missouri Bullet Company. They have a Brinnell hardness rating of 12. I have been getting fairly severe lead fouling in my 1911 barrel. I've been using W231 and Titegroup, start to medium range loads, not approaching max loads. I'm crimping to .470-.471. What can I do to reduce leading? I'm getting really discouraged and I'm almost ready to give up on lead and just spend the extra money for FMJ bullets. Thanks Dave

March 22, 2008, 01:38 AM	#7
MrApathy Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2004 Posts: 529	titegroup has nitro and tends to burn on the warm side leading has been reported with it. that said I shoot 147gr .356 9mm load with titegroup and havent had much for leading that doesnt clean out anywhere near difficult or tedious. lead bullets use a light crimp. dont know what your COL is you didnt mention it. older winchester load data list start 4.5gr with 5.1gr maximum charge with win231 with 19,800psi at 5.1gr due to winchester data crazyness dont know the COL they list maximum COL for all loads which could be ridiculously long. when seating your bullets are you shaving lead? how nicely are the bullets chamber? they distorting any on ride up depositing lead on feedramp,chamber or onto casemouth? whats your barrel throat like check COL see how far out you can seat the bullet without hitting rifling. carefull adjusting COL or charge. not familiar with win231 unless is has some weird characteristic would try running the COL out if reliable function will allow if not back off the load .1-.2gr. problem could however be just the opposite not enough pressure or too long a COL. work it slowly and check results often. minor change could fix it or make it worse. lead bullets can be quite the pita stories I have heard of leading I guess I have been lucky. yet to see the smoothbore effect and dont care to. __________________ Divided and conquered, Gripped by fear Wishful thinking that it can't happen here It's well underways but nobody knows A repeat of history, That's how it goes

March 22, 2008, 11:26 AM	#10
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	no pooh-pooh-ing; LEADING BE DAMNED; read the whole thing First I'd suspect the bullets. Measure and weigh them. Second, your load sounds fine fine fine. Third, have you shot any/much FMJ from this barrel? And afterwards did you clean it until absolutely spotless? Then I'd ask myself, "Self, do these lead bullets shoot accurately? And if so, for how many rds before accuracy deteriorates?" Because if I can shoot over 1,000 rds with no noticeable deterioration why would I clean the bore? www.schuemann.com __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

March 22, 2008, 02:58 PM	#11
Scott5 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2004 Posts: 134	anti leading tips Hello Dave, I used to get leading in my 357 mags and 9mm's. Then I decided to clean the bores untill they were spotless, and shoot jacketed bullets for 500 rounds. Then clean the bores again. Then load up 250 or so lead bullets that were dipped in MICA. After that no more leading. I hope this helps. Happy shooting. Scott5

March 22, 2008, 10:25 PM	#16
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Midway sells the mica in the Frankford Arsenal brand, IIRC. Used as an inside neck lube for sizing rifle cases and used by Hornady to lube their swaged lead bullets. Put the bullets and a little of the Lee liquid Alox in a plastic pan and roll them around until coated. Use a salt shaker to put a little of the mica powder on them while you roll. Take them out an let them dry. As to leading, keep in mind that Elmer Keith developed the .44 magnum shooting mostly 10:1 lead:tin which is about BHN 10. You don't need hard bullets so much as the right size, orientation, and a smooth gun barrel. If you are going to shoot lead primarily, it can help both accuracy and leading to have it throated to give a more gradual entry into the rifling and to break the corner of the step onto the freebore to stop it from shaving lead. The powder charge you have is roughly equivalent to what government FMJ ball loads would use. I know lots of people who ran 4.0 grains of 231 under 185 grain lead bullets for gallery matches. If you are trying to cycle the gun in practice and it doesn't have softball springs, try 4.2 grains. If that doesn't cycle, gt to 4.5 grains. The ball powder doesn't light as easily as Bullseye or N320, so 4.2 to 4.5 grains using a Winchester LP primer or even a magnum primer in another brand can help get the lighter charges burning. The suggestion to run some hardball through the thing is good. Sometimes the chamber reamer is rough, and the toolmarks need burnishing. You will get more rapid and certain smoothing by firelapping the barrel, though I can't recall having to do that to a .45 ACP before. Usually they are not too rough. A more common problem is the lead bullets are seated too deeply. When you do that, at firing, the firing pin pushes the cartridge until the extractor hook catches the case, and the case pivots slightly and then the round fires with the bullet at a slight angle. A jacketed bullet can straighten from that, but a lead bullet goes down the barrel slightly tipped, and usually shaving some lead at the edge of the chamber. That promotes gas blowby and inaccuracy and leading. The solution is to seat the bullet out to allow your cartridges to headspace on the bullet itself. (See diagram below.) Make sure you have at least 0.020" of bullet sticking out of the case ahead of the crimp. A taper crimp on a thick-walled case can narrow the bullet too much, promoting blowby. Having that forward bit of shoulder guarantees adequate diameter at least somewhere on the bullet at its start, and tends to enter the throat before ignition to keep the bullet from tipping. You can sharpen a case with a chamfering tool and cut wads out of low density polyethylene sheet about a sixteenth of an inch thick. These tend to seal behind the bullet and stop leading pretty completely. You can make the bore difficult to adhere to by treating it with MolyFusion or Sprinco Plate+. These products will tend to let leading blow clear of the barrel on subsequent shots. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

March 21, 2008, 08:59 PM	#2
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	Try coating the bullets with a layer of Lee's Liquid Alox Lube. Check the diameter of the bullets, they should not be less than .452 nor larger than .453. Too small typically leads the bore, too large can also do it.

March 21, 2008, 09:06 PM	#3
DaveInPA Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2008 Location: Berks County, PA Posts: 1,106	They're .452 diameter bullets. With that lee lube, do I just toss the bullets in a jug with that stuff and toss it around? Does anyone know if a tighter crimp may help?

March 21, 2008, 09:14 PM	#4
freakshow10mm Junior member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: MI Posts: 1,398	No, a tighter crimp will not help. You should be using a load that generates 17K psi. This will (should) give complete obturation (sealing off the bore) and reduce or eliminate the lead problem. Try that. Your chamber might have a larger throat that allows gas to get around the bullet and cause leading that way.

March 21, 2008, 09:20 PM	#5
DaveInPA Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2008 Location: Berks County, PA Posts: 1,106	The load I shot today was: 230gr LRN 5.3gr W231 This load is rated at 16,900CUP. How does this relate to PSI? I got some pretty major leading, all towards the chamber end of the barrel. Had to let it soak with shooter's choice lead remover and then hit it with about 15 passes of a chore boy wrapped brush to get the lead out.

March 21, 2008, 09:34 PM	#6
freakshow10mm Junior member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: MI Posts: 1,398	http://www.lasc.us/TaylorLeadingDefined.htm

March 22, 2008, 07:09 AM	#8
Master Blaster Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1999 Location: One of the original 13 Colonies Posts: 2,281	Buy a bottle of Trail Boss powder get the data from Hodgdon under the regular .45 acp data. Use Lee Liquid Alox, Viola an 800 fps target load, and no leading even with cheap lead bullets. Trailboss is strictly a target velocity powder for lead bullets.

March 22, 2008, 09:29 AM	#9
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	My experiance has shown that leading near the chamber is a size issue or the base of the bullets are damaged / rounded allowing gas cutting beside the bullet. Leading nearer to the muzzle would indicate a lube problem. Leading in a 45 is almost unheard of. Maybe your bullets are the culprit. I reject a lot of bullets for base issues. Inspect carefully. As far as the size being .452, is that what it says on the box or your calipers? Sometimes they come undersized when checked.

March 22, 2008, 02:59 PM	#12
DaveInPA Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2008 Location: Berks County, PA Posts: 1,106	What is MICA?

March 22, 2008, 04:04 PM	#13
Scott5 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2004 Posts: 134	DaveInPA What is MICA? From the can that I bought from MIDWAYUSA: Dry White Lubricant. Applications: Helps prevent case neck stretch during sizing. Refill case graphiters. *Dust on cast bullets after sizing & lubrication to prevent bullets from sticking together. I bought a 4oz. can about 20 years ago and have about 1/3 left. Happy shooting. Scott5

March 22, 2008, 05:21 PM	#14
Casimer Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2007 Location: Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 1,918	Mica is a family of minerals that contain silica. These also share the common property of naturally forming in thin, often transparent, sheets.

March 24, 2008, 02:11 AM	#17
Tim R Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2004 Location: God's side of Washington State Posts: 1,601	I would bet you are not belling enough. If you only bell enough to accept a bullet, the base of a lead bullet will get moved around when it's seated. I had the same thing going on one of my 1911's and added more bell. Leading went to nothing. Also when shooting lead, I only crimp enough to completely remove the bell. Lead also sticks to copper so it's a good idea to remove all the copper before shooting lead and visa versa. __________________ God Bless our Troops especially our Snipers.

March 24, 2008, 11:51 AM	#19
scrat Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2008 Posts: 214	this is maximum loads for what your using. you should reduce the load from this at least 10% and work up a load rather than work down. 230 grain LSWC or LRN (Semi-Wad Cutter or Round Nose) (these loads work for the RN Plated bullet,too) Bullseye 4.0 gr. 810 FPS (target accuracy load) Bullseye 4.8 gr. 884 hot load/Maximum. Unique 5.5 gr. 795 (I got 738 fps in my gun) Unique 5.5 gr. 913 (in Marlin auto carbine) Unique 6.0 gr. 840* (I got 777 fps in my gun) Unique 6.0 gr. 924* (in Marlin auto carbine) Universal 4.8 gr. 782 No. 2 5.6 gr. 870 No. 5 8.5 gr. 968 231 5.1 gr. 870 (I got 734 in my S&W) 540 7.6 gr. 860 WST 4.5 gr. 805 WAP 7.3 gr. 915