LEO's what is safe etiquette when stopped

[Lohman446]

The ethical theory of reciprocity argues that if a police officer can make assumptions about the person he or she is interacting with based on the most egregious actions of the past based on any factor related to that individual that is not obviously criminal (race, income, place, etc) than an individual interacting with a police officer may also make assumptions about that officer based on the most egregious (and overly publicized) actions of other police officers.

The problem is such assumptions by either or both parties are much more likely to result in a negative outcome.

As police officers are (under)paid and trained professionals one can easily argue the duty is on that of the officer to act in a manner that overcomes those often false assumptions first in a good faith that such actions, over time, will be reciprocated

[Old Bill Dibble]

Isn't there a chance that many of them are just as concerned, or maybe more concerned about all the violence as you and your department? That maybe they are frightened, angry and frustrated too? Yes, many are angry at all cops and white folks in general. In the culture they live in that is the norm. And yes, many blame others for problems of their own making and expect someone else to take care of them.

I think you missed something in what Ton was saying.

Many of the people that live in the areas of high crime are just as sick of it as anyone and request higher levels of enforcement. Clearly everyone living in certain neighborhoods are not all criminals. The odds change based on where you are though.

The people that need the most help are often the most difficult to help. Treating them as the enemy doesn't work. We have to change the system. No one wins the way we are doing things now.

I am not sure what you mean by this? Are you trying to address universal commonalities in police work? There are very few of those. What is your metric for defining "winning"?

The ethical theory of reciprocity argues that if a police officer can make assumptions about the person he or she is interacting with based on the most egregious actions of the past based on any factor related to that individual that is not obviously criminal (race, income, place, etc) than an individual interacting with a police officer may also make assumptions about that officer based on the most egregious (and overly publicized) actions of other police officers.

I suppose that would be true if that were how police actually acted or were supposed to act. Treating people differently based on race is a civil rights violation. Police don't know how much a person makes based on a traffic stop or other casual contact. I am willing to posit you don't know for sure how much your closest friends make.

Being in a certain location, at a certain time could be an indicator that something is not right and that criminal activity is in progress or getting ready to start. A police officer is duty bound to stop crimes in progress or prevent them from occurring if he has the ability to do so. Legally that is one of the metrics the courts came up with to support the Terry Frisk.

As police officers are (under)paid and trained professionals one can easily argue the duty is on that of the officer to act in a manner that overcomes those often false assumptions first in a good faith that such actions, over time, will be reciprocated

I have zero expectations that any criminal will reciprocate the behavior that I display towards him. Most often when I arrest someone they are intoxicated on something. This effects their behavior significantly. When they are sober (much less often) they are normally much better behaved, but not always. To criminals I am the enemy and always will be.

When the person is an unknown quantity the way I behave is the same, professional, courteous and cautious. When I get frustrated I get more courteous. It usually helps to show how ridiculous or dramatic the other party is being.

[zincwarrior]

Bill, I missed the post, but what is your opinion on the best etiquette? To the topic, what is the best thing to do?

[Scout]

Here in Florida, one is not required to inform an officer of carry status. We learned the hard way to keep our mouths shut after a couple of State Trooper tools held my wife at gun point in Clearwater after she informed them about a lawfully secure and encased pistol. Never again. If one of those horses patoots had accidentally shot her, I promise you that they would have laid the blame on her.

[Ton]

Are all of the people living in the areas covered in dots criminals? Isn't there a chance that many of them are just as concerned, or maybe more concerned about all the violence as you and your department?

OBD said all I can really say on this issue. The majority of the people in this area are good citizens who are tired of the crime and request higher enforcement.

I'll also add that a large percentage of the people who get arrested, especially for certain types of crimes are not "bad people" or "career criminals". They are people who have simply made a mistake. Intoxication is often a factor. On the other hand, when I make a stop, I really have NO idea what type of person I am dealing with regardless of what clues I can pick up on. So if this not so bad of a person has just been on copblock.com, has an issue with authority, and decides they are just going to leave after they have been stopped with jaywalking because they don't feel it was justified, it is going to be a pretty bad day for both of us.

The "problem" is that more and more Americans think we have a "problem", and view every officer as a potential predator. It's like fatal car accidents. They are going to happen EVERY day across the country. People will die. But most Americans don't approach every intersection like someone is going to run a red light and T bone them, even though on average two Americans are killed each day by red light runners, making it hundreds of times more likely than having a police officer commit a crime against you. We aren't calling for a traffic reform, burning down cities over every fatality, or having lengthy discussions on how to turn left at an intersection safely.

Yes, police are people, people are flawed, mistakes are made and WILL always be made. But of the high profile incidents, I can count on one hand the ones where I feel an indictment was appropriate, and of THOSE cases, the majority of them would not have happened had the victim not made some very, very poor decisions. The majority of the other cases are just a case of the public having no understanding of police procedure and wanting to be mad about something because they spend too much time reading stories on facebook.

[K_Mac]

Are you trying to address universal commonalities in police work? There are very few of those. What is your metric for defining "winning"?

There are some commonalities that need to be addressed in the way police work is done in low income, high crime areas, especially those with high percentages of blacks. We talk about making those areas "high enforcement" but in far too many neighborhoods that is not the case. Police response is slow, and there isn't enough presence to deter crime. Without that presence and relationship with the community, police are ineffective.

The greater problem is the system that enables and sustains poverty, ignorance, violence, racism, and dependency. Winning is breaking this cycle. The politics of that cannot be solved, or even explored here.

I do not blame law enforcement for creating this mess. There are individuals and departments that contribute though. Denying that ignores the evidence. I know many cops, some well. I respect them and the work they do. They are professionals who are dedicated to serving the community, putting their life on the line daily. I also know that there are others who should find another line of work.

[Lohman446]

You know how in police training you were shown examples of the interactions that had gone wrong and resulted in increased danger if not injury or death to the officer and for at least for some officers it influenced how you approached those interactions? You know for many of you it took a long time to find the right balance in approaching those interactions? Regardless of the fact that those interactions are not the common interaction they were still put into your mind.

I am not one of the profiled class, race, or anything else. I get that. Virtually all of my interactions with officers have been professional to the point of bordering on friendly.

Those videos you have watched in training. The counterparts for civilians having negative interaction with officers are floating around and shown over and over and over again. Those color the actions and attitudes of those officers interact with and, because those civilians often have less interactions with officers then officers have with civilians, take longer to really know (even if one "knows" it) that those bad interactions are not the norm. Imagine, for those of you who are officers, if you had been told in the beginning that everyone of those interactions would have been with a civilian carrying a gun.

And... then there is the uncertainty. Even on these boards we cannot seem to agree on the safest method of interaction during a routine traffic stop.

[zincwarrior]

But of the high profile incidents, I can count on one hand the ones where I feel an indictment was appropriate,

Thats why there needs to be a third party review. No entity self polices properly. Its human nature.

Again to the topic, what is the recommended course of action? I am not getting a lot of feedback here.

[Old Bill Dibble]

Bill, I missed the post, but what is your opinion on the best etiquette? To the topic, what is the best thing to do?

- Have your required papers in order.
- Meet any legal requirements for carry
- Try to be the better man

Same stuff we should all be doing any way.

No entity self polices properly. Its human nature.

If they could there would be no police.

[Ton]

Again to the topic, what is the recommended course of action? I am not getting a lot of feedback here.

I gave it in my first post.

[Deaf Smith]

There is no 'safe' etiquette when dealing with cops Kemosabe.

Not bashing cops but even with your hands up if someone else in the car does something that makes them think they are in danger or another cop accidentally fires their weapon they can (and have done) all start shooting.

Any encounter with a cop is dangerous by definition. Thus drive inside the speed limit, keep your car's registration up to date, don't cut people off, don't get into arguments, etc... in short, keep interactions with cops to a minimum.

Sounds harsh, but true.

Deaf