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Old March 7, 2011, 07:40 AM   #1
geetarman
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Tell me about .308 loads and rifles

I have seen quite a bit of controversy about .308 and rate of twist stabilizing lighter bullets. I have a friend who got out of .308 and he gave me a box of commercial 155 grain bullets. I know my Remington 700 does not like lighter bullets although some actually do.

I tried an experiment. My loaded M1A is supposed to be designed for NATO 147 gr. bullets. I shoot iron sights with that rifle. I have been having some nice results with DAG West German surplus ammo so after I shot a couple of magazines up, I loaded 10 rounds of the commercial stuff and shot at 100 yards.

Image 3229 is the result of that. Not so very good.

I shot 10 rounds with the Remington 700P. Image 3230 is the result and that is not too good either.

Now I try 5 rounds of my 175 gr. SMK and 43.6 gr. of BLC(2) and look at the difference. The result is image 3231. Like night and day.

I am going to put the scope back on the M1A and I bought some Federal Gold 175 gr. commercial ammo and I am going to run that through both the M1A and the 700P.

I am now more confused than ever. If the M1A is designed around a standard NATO 147 gr. bullet, can anyone tell me what is going on?

I know I am not a terrific shot but I am not just starting out either.

I do not normally shoot reloads in the M1A because the brass gets beat up pretty good and I really like reloading and do not want to limit myself to loads within limits to cycle the action. I do not have that concern with bolt guns.

Please take a look at the pictures and comment please.

Geetarman
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Old March 7, 2011, 08:55 AM   #2
kraigwy
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Chances are you M1A is either 1:12 or 1:10 twist. I'm gonna assume your Rem 700 is 1:10. A faster twist will shoot heavier bullets, but not so the other way around. But with the two above, you should be fine at < 175s.

Regardless either should shoot the 147 or 175s (or anything in between).

It should be expected the 175s are going to shoot better the the 147s simply because its a better bullet.

Frankly I don't shoot surplus ammo. Yes there are some guns that will shoot them, and some that wont.

I use to have a Rem 788 that loved 7.62 ball, shot it better then anything else.

But now I only have two 308s, one is a Rem 700 I built for my grandson, its a hunting rifle and does quite well with 150 Hornady's.

The other is my Super Match M1A, a target rifle for shooting HP service rifle matches. I only shoot 168 or 175 SMKs in it.

What you might try is some mexican match. Pull the 147 bullets and stuff in stuff in some commercial 150s and see what happened.

Yeah there are a lot of cheap surplus ammo out there, but what good is it if it doesn't shoot.

If I had a bunch of surplus stuff, I'd use it up practicing my offhand shooting.

But that's just me.
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Old March 7, 2011, 08:59 AM   #3
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Quote:
If the M1A is designed around a standard NATO 147 gr. bullet, can anyone tell me what is going on?
Yeah, your rifle likes 175 SMK.

I don't shoot an M1A, and there may be other considerations, like recoil impulse and operating rod pressures, or which I have absolutely no recommendations. I'm told it matters, but I am totally ignorant about such things. I'm a bolt-action guy, so you'll have to look to others for such advise.

However, I can say that based on the targets you've shown, your barrel really likes that 175 SMK load.
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Old March 7, 2011, 09:05 AM   #4
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milatary ammo is not made to be the most accurite its just made to go off every time the hand loads look to be shooting the best for u so i would stick with them
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Old March 7, 2011, 09:47 AM   #5
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Kraig,

I hear you. I was shooting the 300 yard gong and the little 300 yard steel plates pretty good with the West German DAG ammo.

I am going to try the Federal in the M1A this Friday. I kinda hate to put the scope back on it but I really want to see the difference between the surplus and the Federal. Then I will take the scope off.

I am not a kid anymore and I can't see as well as I used to. . .but I sure like the M1A. . .without the scope!!

Geetarman
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Old March 7, 2011, 10:42 AM   #6
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Now I try 5 rounds of my 175 gr. SMK and 43.6 gr. of BLC(2) and look at the difference. The result is image 3231. Like night and day.
Is Image 3231 the Rem 700, or the (iron-sighted?) M1A ?

(post script: the Loaded Springfield M1A is advertised as being 1:11)
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Old March 7, 2011, 10:44 AM   #7
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There's a lot more going on than simply bullet weight variations. The quality of the bullets can vary. Things like how uniform the weights are, how uniform the bullet bases are. The brass can vary in terms of how long it is, and how concentric the bullet is seated in the brass. And then you get into powder variations. Different powders have different burn rates. That will affect individual rifle performance. And of course, the big thing reloaders play with is the powder weight and how uniform it is.

When it gets down to it, there are 4 or 5 variables that are extremely important to accuracy and another 3 or 4 variables that can be somewhat important. You have to find the right combination of thosee variables for your rifle and then do everything to keep them as consistent as possible.

155 gr bullets are not really considered "light" for a .308. True, most of the serious long range competitors use the 168 or 175 gr bullets. But 155 gr bullets can be just as accurate out to 300 yds. In fact, I have a buddy who shoots a lot more and a lot better than I do. He told me he was having some great results with 110 gr bullets in his .308. The same rifle that he shoots 168 gr loads with. I went and bought a box of 100 of those 110 gr bullets after hearing it. I've loaded some up with different charge weights but haven't shot them yet. To me, the 110 gr bullets definitely seem "light" in that cartridge. Truth is though that you can usually find some combination of powder weight and seating depth to make most bullets work unless they are extremely heavy or extremely light for that barrel twist.
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Old March 7, 2011, 11:30 AM   #8
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Surplus ammo can be all over the map. Read this 2001 article (the title is confusing, but it gets to the 7.62 NATO) on dissected surplus to get some idea why. Bullet mass symmetry is best in match grade bullets, and bullet base geometric symmetry, which affects initial yaw from muzzle blast at bullet exit, is best in hollow point bullets. Surplus military 7.62 ammo (except for M852 and M118LR) has neither, so how good it can be is inherently disadvantaged.

The 175 grain Sierra MatchKing bullets have longer bearing surfaces that align better in a bore than lighter bullets, and have excellent mass symmetry and excellent geometric symmetry. These add up to making them easier to get good loads from than the short bearing surface bullets. They are happy with either 10" or 12" twists as near as I can tell.

If you want good grouping from lighter bullets you need to start not only with good grade bullets but also to pay careful attention to cartridge concentricity and any other factor that can affect how straight the bullet enters the throat. Walt Berger says the high BC 155's made for Palma match shooting take 500 yards to go to sleep and that his flat base bullets in that weight do better up to that distance. He is likely talking about Palma rifle barrels with their 13" and longer twists, though. The 155 grain boattail Palma bullets only shoot so-so in my M1A. The long nose and short bearing surface on the Sierra is picky about alignment and seating depth, where the old 150 grain MatchKing actually does better in my gun at short range. The flat base Bergers are better, still.
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Old March 7, 2011, 12:25 PM   #9
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I should have been clearer. Only the first image 3229 was the M1A.

What I was attempting to do was find out how well commercial ammo did in both rifles. Obviously, neither one liked the 155 gr. bullets.

Just to prove to me, I shot 5 of my handloads in the 700 and that was the result in image 3231.

I think what I will do this Friday is load up two magazines with the Federallammo and two with the West German DAG and shoot at 100 yards with the scope on the rifle. I have already shot some of the DAG through the 700 and was not terribly impressed. I also knew at the time, that rifle does not like 150-155 gr. bullets.

I really want to see how well the M1A does with some good stuff. And to get me more out of the equation, I will use a scope on the rifle.

I just got back from the indoor range and mounted and bore sighted the scope on the M1A. I will let you know how it turns out.

For what it is worth, the guy next to me was shooting a Remington 700 pretty much like mine and was cloveleafing 155 gr. bullets. . .go figure.

Sorry for any confusion.

Geetarman

Last edited by geetarman; March 7, 2011 at 12:36 PM.
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Old March 7, 2011, 04:00 PM   #10
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I can open my groups up to a 6 inch spread or shrink it to the size of a quarter with just a difference of 6 or 8 grains of powder... Might want to work the load up for the bullet and rifle instead of just making 10 rounds and judging from there.
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Old March 7, 2011, 04:40 PM   #11
geetarman
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I only had one box of factory loads that were given to me. I split them between the M1A and the bolt gun to get an idea how each gun shot the lighter bullets.

The pictures speak volumes in that neither gun shot factory 155 gr. bullets very well. My bolt gun shot reloads just fine.

I put the scope back on the M1A today and I will try to see how well it does with surplus ammo and with Federal Premium ammo.

Geetarman
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Old March 7, 2011, 11:53 PM   #12
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Ah, I understand now. You got a box of cartridges. I thought he'd given you a box of bullets and you loaded some of your own. Not trying to nit-pick here, I've just gotten used to the difference between on this site. I'd thought you loaded up 10 of your own. It still doesn't mean your guns don't like light bullets. Just not those particular cartridges. If you bought a box of those bullets and worked a load up you may find some sweet spots. I don't think 10 rounds of 1 brand is an accurate way to base a theory. Thats like only test driving a chevette and saying you don't like any chevy's.
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Old March 8, 2011, 06:21 AM   #13
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I think it would depend on who's 155 gr bullet. I know my M-1's like the 155 gr "Palma" SMK. The 155 "Palma" SMK will out fly both the 168 SMK that almost makes it to 1k and the 175 gr SMK at 1k. I must admit the 308 the Palma team uses are hot and shot out of bolt guns not gas guns. But still with the 155 gr. "Palma" the 10 ring at 600 yards can be hit repeatably.
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Old March 8, 2011, 06:42 AM   #14
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I have a 1:12 rifle with a 24" barrel that is very accurate with 155 SMK(Palma) projectiles.
44.2-44.4 grains of IMR-4064 in an R-P case is the ticket for me, for that rifle.
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Old March 8, 2011, 08:40 AM   #15
geetarman
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Semi,

As I said, I could have been much clearer. I have tried a lot of different loads for the lighter bullets and the 700 just does not shoot them well. I have tried my loads and factory loads. No way do they shoot well. Get the heavier bullets in there and the rifle just "wakes up.

The M1A is what Springfield calls a "loaded" model. Mine has a match barrel and trigger.

I put a scope on it right after I first got it and was shooting WWB out of it.


Now, I would like to see what the rifle will do with some heavier factory ammo.

I do not know if the M1A will do like the 700 and come alive with the heavier bullets or not. That is what I would like to find out on Friday.

I really like the iron sights on the M1A and find I can shoot pretty well with it.

I put the scope back on it and boresighted it two days ago and want to get as much of me as I can out of the process to see how well the rifle shoots.

Looks like an extended day at the range on Friday. . .oh darn!!!

Geetarman
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Old March 9, 2011, 03:47 PM   #16
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I shoot Rem 125 JSP and Hornady 130 gr JSP with great results in my M1A. 168 gr Sierra match bullets shoot great as well.
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Old March 9, 2011, 08:03 PM   #17
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Cant speak to the M1A because Ive never loaded for them, but so far as the 700's, Ive done quite a bit of reloading. I have a VS in 308, which is pretty much the same as your 700P. Both of them have the 1:12 twist. On most of the really slick bullets, like the palma match 155's and up, I find that in my rifles, I have to load them out to the length of the magazine box in order to get them to group well.
Ive run into a lot of Remingtons which seem to have a longer than usual leade. My hunting buddy's 700 in 270 winchester doesnt like 130 grain bullets at all, and before I got him started in rolling his own, went to 140 grain expensive stuff so it would group for him.
I finally convinced him to get a stony point OAL chamber gauge and learned the same lesson. He shoots quite happily along with 130s now that theyre seated a full 3/16s out farther than the factory ammo he tried.
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Old March 9, 2011, 08:29 PM   #18
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David,

That might be something new to try. I will try doing the same thing I did with some Berger bullets early on. I will set one into the lands and measure that OAL and take the factory spec OAL and subtract them. I will divide that distance by four and make up a 10 round load at each didtance and see if I can zero in on the sweet spot.

The reason I am so interested in the lighter bullets is my LEO friend. There is a man who instructs at the police department where he works and his specialty is the .308. He is very high on 110 gr. bullets in the gun and has the targets to show what he preaches and teaches really does work.

I have been working at it for a while but I HAVE shot a bit of various factory 155 gr. loads that just don't group for my rifle. As I said before, the guy shooting next to me last week was shooting a rifle similar to mine and was cloverleafing 155 gr. bullets.


I do know those bullets he shot were loaded by his father in law who was a retired marine and were loaded while he was on active duty. They were all in LC brass.

I would like to grab one of those rounds and make some measurements and see what I can come up with.

If he is at the range Friday, maybe I can do that.

Thanks for giving me the idea.

Geetarman
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Old March 10, 2011, 02:09 AM   #19
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geetarman,

The .308 was originally designed as a military round by Winchester intended for use in the M-14 which is the military version of the M-1A1. As designed, the rifle was intended for use in a 1:12" barrel. This twist was selected because the 147gr bullet was to be used. The 1:12" twist barrel is supposed to be a better choice for lighter .30 cal bullets. Usually 180gr or lighter. How ever, Remington has made a lot of .30-06 barrels with the 1:10" twist which will handle bullets from 220gr down to 150gr. Remington could see no advantage in ordering barrels with two twist, so they just stuck with the 1:10" twist and put them on both the .30-06 and the .308.

Now the 1:10" twist is not expected to handle bullets lighter than 140gr, but every once in awhile there will come along a 1:10" twist that will shoot everything that can be shoved down its bore. And the 1:12" isn't really expected to handle bullets heavier than 180gr. but it sometimes does. I've wonder if that is the reason the 200gr bullet that Winchester brought out in the original bullets offered by Winchester fell by the wayside.

I've found that the .308 is well suited to the 150gr and the 165gr bullets. If I needed more bullet than that, I went to the .30-06 to deliver it with. IMHO, the .308 is a nice rifle to take along on deer hunts. It carries easier and is easier on an old goats shoulder. I've never felt under gunned with the .308 Winchester and it has done everything that I've ever asked of it.
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Old March 11, 2011, 10:55 AM   #20
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Geetarman, now ya got me interested in the 110 grainers...dang ya lol. Never tried anything that light in my VS before so this ought to be interesting.

There isnt a whole lot of constants in reloading-every rifle seems to be a bit different in what it likes, but my normal practice is to start about .050 off the lands and see what I get, then dial it in.

Everything else being equal, Ive come to the conclusion that the bullet itself and its position off the lands has more to do with the accuracy equation than powder, case or primer.
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Old March 11, 2011, 11:47 AM   #21
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I have some 110's loaded up just waiting to be shot. There's plenty of load data published for the 110 gr bullets, but I haven't seen a whole lot of talk about what combos tend to shoot the most accurately. I wasn't interested in super-fast velocities, just something that shoots good. I used Alliant Reloder 7 and Sierra HPs for my first batch. I varied the charge weight from 37.4 gr up to 40.0 gr. As mentioned, I haven't shot them yet to see how they do. The one thing that is different is that the bullets are obviously a lot shorter than what I'm used to. I seated them so that the COAL was 2.600". That doesn't leave much of the bullet in the brass. The base of the bullet is about where the neck meets the shoulder. We shall see.
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