ATF Project Gunrunner - Page 34

Bartholomew Roberts · August 5, 2011, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Project Gunrunner’s objective is to deny Mexican drug cartels the tools of the trade

By supplying them with over 2,000 such tools which we have no realistic way to track in Mexico... It would sound very 1984-ish in its doublespeak except even Orwell probably thought that plot line was too far fetched to sell.

**Tom Servo** · August 5, 2011, 08:40 PM

Quote:

It would sound very 1984-ish in its doublespeak except even Orwell probably thought that plot line was too far fetched to sell.

Oceania has always been at war with Europa.

Basically, the ATF is helping stem the flow of contraband weapons southwards by sending contraband weapons southward. Makes perfect sense.

The logic reminds me of Gibbon's summation of the late Roman empire: the whole system was a tax-collecting apparatus that collected taxes to support the tax-collecting apparatus.

BGutzman · August 5, 2011, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Basically, the ATF is helping stem the flow of contraband weapons southwards by sending contraband weapons southward. Makes perfect sense.

Tom called it right...... Nothing like our tax dollars sending guns directly to the criminals to stop non existant flow of guns from FFL dealers.....

alan · August 6, 2011, 07:14 PM

BGutzman Quote:
Basically, the ATF is helping stem the flow of contraband weapons southwards by sending contraband weapons southward. Makes perfect sense.

Tom called it right...... Nothing like our tax dollars sending guns directly to the criminals to stop non existant flow of guns from FFL dealers.....

Yesterday 09:40 PM
Tom Servo Quote:
It would sound very 1984-ish in its doublespeak except even Orwell probably thought that plot line was too far fetched to sell.

Oceania has always been at war with Europa.

Basically, the ATF is helping stem the flow of contraband weapons southwards by sending contraband weapons southward. Makes perfect sense.

The logic reminds me of Gibbon's summation of the late Roman empire: the whole system was a tax-collecting apparatus that collected taxes to support the tax-collecting apparatus.
--------------------------------------

How does "your tax dollars at work" ring in the view or hearing of readers here.

It strikes me that the hides of Obama and Holder et al aught to be nailed to the back fence, and allowed to dry. Of course, nothing of the sort will happen, sovereign immunity of some such foolishness will be trotted out, still the idea strikes me as interesting, even in the philosophical or rhetorical sense.

kilimanjaro · August 6, 2011, 07:45 PM

Holder is not immune to the law, and will get nailed one day. The President will be given a pass as long as something with his signature on it doesn't show up.

Standing Wolf · August 6, 2011, 09:29 PM

Quote:

The President will be given a pass as long as something with his signature on it doesn't show up.

Even then, he'd probably receive only the mildest, lightest public criticism.

**Aguila Blanca** · August 6, 2011, 10:40 PM

Holder won't be held accountable. Suitable scapegoats will be sacrificed on the altar of Congress, and life in Washington will continue, unabated and unchecked by the supposed "checks and balances" built into the system. The problem with our system of government is that it was created by men who were fundamentally both ethical and idealistic. I don't think, either individually or collectively, they had the capacity to envision how corrupted our form of government could become while still nominally remaining within its Constitutional framework.

It's all in buying the right judges ...

BGutzman · August 6, 2011, 11:00 PM

It never ceases to amaze me that the government can break laws at will with little regard..... Crimes that you and I would get life sentences for are commited with alarming regularity.....

Sad state of affairs..

pnac · August 6, 2011, 11:25 PM

Quote:

It's all in buying the right judges ...

Or paying their salaries.

Uncle Buck · August 7, 2011, 06:57 AM

In the testimony I watched, the ATF representative (Mr. Newel?) said they wanted to identify the drug kingpins. But they admitted that Mexico knew who the drug kingpins were (Or maybe I miss-understood the response to the question posed by the senator).

Also, once the kingpin was "Identified" what could the US do with the information? I am under the impression that Mexico and the United States do not have an extradition treaty. Am I wrong on this also?

I have always taught that honesty is the best policy and to respect authority. But when people like this abuse that trust and their authority, it sure makes me and others look like guppies.

thallub · August 7, 2011, 08:40 AM

What we have here is a US government operation that was expanded on until it got totally out of control. Fast and Furious was dreamed up by career BATFE bureaucrats in AZ. They sold the project to their bosses in DC and the US Justice Dep't.

Project Gunrunner got underway in 2006. Operation Fast and Furious began in 2009 with the blessing of the local federal prosecutor. So far as can be determined no guns were "walked" across the border until 2009.

Everyone who cares should read the entire 60 page report prepared by the congressional staff for US Rep. Issa and Sen. Grassley:

http://oversight.house.gov/images/st...INAL_FINAL.pdf

Don H · August 7, 2011, 08:57 AM

Uncle Buck,

The U.S. and Mexico have had a number of extradition treaties since at least the 1860's. Most recently, Mexican drug lord Benjamin Arrellano Felix (sp?) was extradited to the U.S. this spring. If I remember correctly, the current treaty will not allow the extradition of Mexican citizens if they will be facing the death penalty, something Mexico abolished several years ago.

The difficulty, of course, of extraditing a Mexican citizen who has not physically entered the U.S. to commit a crime is having enough evidence to show that he is the cause of crimes in the U.S. and those crimes were commited at his behest.

Bartholomew Roberts · August 7, 2011, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Also, once the kingpin was "Identified" what could the US do with the information?

It is actually worse than that. Several of the people ATF targeted were FBI and DEA informants. They weren't ever going to be charged or extradited because they were already working for us. See the testimony from the second set of hearings for more details.

alan · August 7, 2011, 01:11 PM

BGutzman wrote:

It never ceases to amaze me that the government can break laws at will with little regard..... Crimes that you and I would get life sentences for are commited with alarming regularity.....

Sad state of affairs..
__________________
Freedom is legislated away one bill at a time.......

----------------------

Does Do As We Say, Not As We Do not have a certain ring?

Uncle Buck · August 8, 2011, 07:54 AM

Thanks Don H. I was looking further in to this and found basically what you have written. But I still feel either way (whether they could extradite a kingpin or not) that the Mexican Government knows who is who and if they caught the person, would they really risk sending them to the US? I think the Mexican Law Enforcement officials would rather end it there on the spot than have to risk prison breaks and retaliation.

Bartholomew Roberts That is a very good point. Just like the gun shop who was indicted and then when their attorney pointed out they were following ATF requests. Charges dropped.

hogdogs · August 8, 2011, 08:43 AM

Quote:

I think the Mexican Law Enforcement officials would rather end it there on the spot than have to risk prison breaks and retaliation.

No matter what the LE officials want, if they don't kill the feller on the street, the best way to assure they serve a sentence is to extradite to the USA... If they imprison them there, they just escape...

Remember, they have hundreds of millions in cash if not billions at their disposal to spend on any elaborate scheme they choose to thwart the security measures of a prison not much more secure than a nice home with a fence around it.

Brent

**Tom Servo** · August 8, 2011, 03:01 PM

News comes today that Newell will not be assigned to be the ATF's attache to Mexico. The Mexican government is now handling Fast and Furious as a criminal investigation, and

Quote:

Concern had surfaced recently within ATF that the Mexican government might arrest Newell if he came down there as the attache.

Hardcase · August 8, 2011, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Everyone who cares should read the entire 60 page report prepared by the congressional staff for US Rep. Issa and Sen. Grassley:

http://oversight.house.gov/images/st...INAL_FINAL.pdf

Thanks for that link. It was an alternating astonishing and horrifying read.

BGutzman · August 8, 2011, 03:31 PM

This was a doomed project from the start the only objectives that appear to me are as follows.

1. Create murder and mayhem on both sides of the border for political purposes.
2. Equip the drug Cartels at tax payer expense with zero possibility of tracing it to any big players ever, it simply wasnt traceable period.
3. Use the resulting chaos to impose further gun regulations, possibly try to outlaw FFLs... This is my guess but it seems spot on....

alan · August 8, 2011, 04:31 PM

http://oversight.house.gov/images/st...INAL_FINAL.pdf

The above link doesn't work, at least not for me.

Clicking on the link brings the following error message.

Not Found
The requested URL was not found on this server.

Is there a way around this?

zxcvbob · August 8, 2011, 04:36 PM

http://oversight.house.gov/images/stories/Reports/FINAL_FINAL.pdf

maestro pistolero · August 8, 2011, 06:14 PM

The link in post #836 from which the link was quoted works.

HarrySchell · August 8, 2011, 09:02 PM

If Newell is so clean, such a great LEO and general savant, a real teller of truth at any cost...I thought the Mexicans would like that. Or, if some of that recitation is optimistic, perhaps he could be useful.

ATF is afraid they would put the guy in prison? The Mexicans have higher standards than ATF or Holder, I guess, or it would be very useful to make an example of this paticular gringo for short-term political gain.

I am sure there are people in Mexico who look at it either way. I am so sorry for the former, and hope the latter reap what they sow, fall upon their own poison, and leave the field.

alan · August 8, 2011, 09:51 PM

maestro pistolero wrote:

The link in post #836 from which the link was quoted works.

-----------------------

Looks like it does, thank you.

Bartholomew Roberts · August 11, 2011, 09:22 AM

In the roving clown car that has become Fast & Furious, we have a new development. The Terry family had petitioned to come before the court as "crime victims" in the case against Jaime Avila, the straw purchaser who purchased the AK47s used in the death of Agent Terry.

Typically, this motion might be opposed by a defense attorney for his client's sake. However, in this case, the U.S. Attorney (Emory Hurley and Dennis Burke of Fast and Furious fame) is opposing the petition on the grounds that the family was "not directly or proximally harmed" by the illegal purchase of the AK.

Apparently, the US Attorney's office in Arizona is more concerned about the possible legal consequences of acknowledging that the AK47s sold to Avila may have been used to kill Terry than they are about the PR nightmare of telling a murdered federal agent's family that they were not "directly or proximally harmed" by the crime.

August 6, 2011, 10:40 PM	#832
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,460	Holder won't be held accountable. Suitable scapegoats will be sacrificed on the altar of Congress, and life in Washington will continue, unabated and unchecked by the supposed "checks and balances" built into the system. The problem with our system of government is that it was created by men who were fundamentally both ethical and idealistic. I don't think, either individually or collectively, they had the capacity to envision how corrupted our form of government could become while still nominally remaining within its Constitutional framework. It's all in buying the right judges ... Last edited by Aguila Blanca; August 7, 2011 at 10:35 PM.

August 6, 2011, 11:00 PM	#833
BGutzman Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2009 Location: Frozen Tundra Posts: 2,414	It never ceases to amaze me that the government can break laws at will with little regard..... Crimes that you and I would get life sentences for are commited with alarming regularity..... Sad state of affairs.. __________________ Molon Labe

August 7, 2011, 06:57 AM	#835
Uncle Buck Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2009 Location: West Central Missouri Posts: 2,592	In the testimony I watched, the ATF representative (Mr. Newel?) said they wanted to identify the drug kingpins. But they admitted that Mexico knew who the drug kingpins were (Or maybe I miss-understood the response to the question posed by the senator). Also, once the kingpin was "Identified" what could the US do with the information? I am under the impression that Mexico and the United States do not have an extradition treaty. Am I wrong on this also? I have always taught that honesty is the best policy and to respect authority. But when people like this abuse that trust and their authority, it sure makes me and others look like guppies. __________________ Inside Every Bright Idea Is The 50% Probability Of A Disaster Waiting To Happen.

August 7, 2011, 08:57 AM	#837
Don H Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2000 Location: SLC,Utah Posts: 2,704	Uncle Buck, The U.S. and Mexico have had a number of extradition treaties since at least the 1860's. Most recently, Mexican drug lord Benjamin Arrellano Felix (sp?) was extradited to the U.S. this spring. If I remember correctly, the current treaty will not allow the extradition of Mexican citizens if they will be facing the death penalty, something Mexico abolished several years ago. The difficulty, of course, of extraditing a Mexican citizen who has not physically entered the U.S. to commit a crime is having enough evidence to show that he is the cause of crimes in the U.S. and those crimes were commited at his behest. __________________ Don http://www.utahconcealedcarry.com/forum/

August 8, 2011, 07:54 AM	#840
Uncle Buck Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2009 Location: West Central Missouri Posts: 2,592	Thanks Don H. I was looking further in to this and found basically what you have written. But I still feel either way (whether they could extradite a kingpin or not) that the Mexican Government knows who is who and if they caught the person, would they really risk sending them to the US? I think the Mexican Law Enforcement officials would rather end it there on the spot than have to risk prison breaks and retaliation. Bartholomew Roberts That is a very good point. Just like the gun shop who was indicted and then when their attorney pointed out they were following ATF requests. Charges dropped. __________________ Inside Every Bright Idea Is The 50% Probability Of A Disaster Waiting To Happen.

August 6, 2011, 07:14 PM	#829
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	BGutzman Quote: Basically, the ATF is helping stem the flow of contraband weapons southwards by sending contraband weapons southward. Makes perfect sense. Tom called it right...... Nothing like our tax dollars sending guns directly to the criminals to stop non existant flow of guns from FFL dealers..... Yesterday 09:40 PM Tom Servo Quote: It would sound very 1984-ish in its doublespeak except even Orwell probably thought that plot line was too far fetched to sell. Oceania has always been at war with Europa. Basically, the ATF is helping stem the flow of contraband weapons southwards by sending contraband weapons southward. Makes perfect sense. The logic reminds me of Gibbon's summation of the late Roman empire: the whole system was a tax-collecting apparatus that collected taxes to support the tax-collecting apparatus. -------------------------------------- How does "your tax dollars at work" ring in the view or hearing of readers here. It strikes me that the hides of Obama and Holder et al aught to be nailed to the back fence, and allowed to dry. Of course, nothing of the sort will happen, sovereign immunity of some such foolishness will be trotted out, still the idea strikes me as interesting, even in the philosophical or rhetorical sense.

August 6, 2011, 07:45 PM	#830
kilimanjaro Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 3,963	Holder is not immune to the law, and will get nailed one day. The President will be given a pass as long as something with his signature on it doesn't show up.

August 7, 2011, 08:40 AM	#836
thallub Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2007 Location: South Western OK Posts: 3,112	What we have here is a US government operation that was expanded on until it got totally out of control. Fast and Furious was dreamed up by career BATFE bureaucrats in AZ. They sold the project to their bosses in DC and the US Justice Dep't. Project Gunrunner got underway in 2006. Operation Fast and Furious began in 2009 with the blessing of the local federal prosecutor. So far as can be determined no guns were "walked" across the border until 2009. Everyone who cares should read the entire 60 page report prepared by the congressional staff for US Rep. Issa and Sen. Grassley: http://oversight.house.gov/images/st...INAL_FINAL.pdf

August 7, 2011, 01:11 PM	#839
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	BGutzman wrote: It never ceases to amaze me that the government can break laws at will with little regard..... Crimes that you and I would get life sentences for are commited with alarming regularity..... Sad state of affairs.. __________________ Freedom is legislated away one bill at a time....... ---------------------- Does Do As We Say, Not As We Do not have a certain ring?

August 8, 2011, 03:31 PM	#844
BGutzman Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2009 Location: Frozen Tundra Posts: 2,414	This was a doomed project from the start the only objectives that appear to me are as follows. 1. Create murder and mayhem on both sides of the border for political purposes. 2. Equip the drug Cartels at tax payer expense with zero possibility of tracing it to any big players ever, it simply wasnt traceable period. 3. Use the resulting chaos to impose further gun regulations, possibly try to outlaw FFLs... This is my guess but it seems spot on.... __________________ Molon Labe

August 8, 2011, 04:31 PM	#845
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	http://oversight.house.gov/images/st...INAL_FINAL.pdf The above link doesn't work, at least not for me. Clicking on the link brings the following error message. Not Found The requested URL was not found on this server. Is there a way around this?

August 8, 2011, 04:36 PM	#846
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 4,720	http://oversight.house.gov/images/stories/Reports/FINAL_FINAL.pdf __________________ "Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth

August 8, 2011, 06:14 PM	#847
maestro pistolero Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 2007 Posts: 2,153	The link in post #836 from which the link was quoted works.

August 8, 2011, 09:02 PM	#848
HarrySchell Senior Member Join Date: March 30, 2007 Location: South CA Posts: 566	If Newell is so clean, such a great LEO and general savant, a real teller of truth at any cost...I thought the Mexicans would like that. Or, if some of that recitation is optimistic, perhaps he could be useful. ATF is afraid they would put the guy in prison? The Mexicans have higher standards than ATF or Holder, I guess, or it would be very useful to make an example of this paticular gringo for short-term political gain. I am sure there are people in Mexico who look at it either way. I am so sorry for the former, and hope the latter reap what they sow, fall upon their own poison, and leave the field. __________________ Loyalty to petrified opinions never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul in this world — and never will. — Mark Twain

August 8, 2011, 09:51 PM	#849
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	maestro pistolero wrote: The link in post #836 from which the link was quoted works. ----------------------- Looks like it does, thank you.

August 11, 2011, 09:22 AM	#850
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	In the roving clown car that has become Fast & Furious, we have a new development. The Terry family had petitioned to come before the court as "crime victims" in the case against Jaime Avila, the straw purchaser who purchased the AK47s used in the death of Agent Terry. Typically, this motion might be opposed by a defense attorney for his client's sake. However, in this case, the U.S. Attorney (Emory Hurley and Dennis Burke of Fast and Furious fame) is opposing the petition on the grounds that the family was "not directly or proximally harmed" by the illegal purchase of the AK. Apparently, the US Attorney's office in Arizona is more concerned about the possible legal consequences of acknowledging that the AK47s sold to Avila may have been used to kill Terry than they are about the PR nightmare of telling a murdered federal agent's family that they were not "directly or proximally harmed" by the crime.