May 8, 2018, 02:55 PM | #26 | |
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May 8, 2018, 09:07 PM | #27 | |
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The only time I carry with an empty chamber is if I have been doing (and plan on doing more) dry practice. Otherwise, mine is set to go. On a lighter note - having one in the pipe makes it impossible to pull your gun, rack the slide, and make some tough guy cliche remark. Jk |
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May 8, 2018, 09:33 PM | #28 |
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For me, one in the chamber and no safety. This leaves single action handguns off my carry list.
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May 8, 2018, 09:53 PM | #29 |
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Even if carrying on an empty chamber incurred no extra time penalty I don't think I could endorse it. The possibility of things that might interfere with it troubles me.
Can I be sure that my off-hand will always be available? ... will never be occupied trying to fend off an attacker? ... will never be in the death-grip of my wife, girlfriend, or heaven forbid...both??? ... will never be holding my youngest in my arms? ... will never be trying to control my dog on his leash? ... will never be trying to maintain my grip on a bus careening out of control at 55mph and will blow up if it goes below that speed? ... will never have an injured hand or arm that prevents me from racking the slide? Compared to that, what are the disadvantages to carrying with a round already chambered? |
May 9, 2018, 06:25 AM | #30 |
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That's enough for me. I made up my mind.
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May 9, 2018, 07:07 AM | #31 |
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I'm going to add the non-tactical argument to this because I considered it way too much last night as an academic point as the OP has already made a decision. Apparently I don't like to sleep anyways.
I had to click on the little firearms safety link up top because I wanted to verify I did not word this incorrectly. The first rule of gun safety: All guns are always loaded - period! It seems the arguments for carrying with an empty chamber revolve around the idea that a gun, particularly a carry gun that is handled fairly often, is in fact not loaded. To me such an idea, firmly placed in one's mind, could easily be the starting point for a disaster. |
May 9, 2018, 01:07 PM | #32 |
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"All guns are always loaded - period! It seems the arguments for carrying with an empty chamber revolve around the idea that a gun, particularly a carry gun that is handled fairly often, is in fact not loaded. To me such an idea, firmly placed in one's mind, could easily be the starting point for a disaster."
Valid, but the thought process goes both ways. From a safety perspective, treating every firearm as if it were loaded is very good practice, of course, for all the usual reasons. However, moving beyond basic safety measures and into practical use, I absolutely want to know exactly what the condition of my weapon is. The consequences for not knowing can be equally detrimental, loaded or unloaded. |
May 9, 2018, 01:44 PM | #33 |
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The simple rule in my castle is: if the gun is in the safe it is not loaded.
Otherwise, if it is not in the safe, it is loaded and ready to fire. I keep 4 handguns out of the safe. Guess what condition they are in?? |
May 9, 2018, 02:33 PM | #34 |
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The reason Israeli carry was instigated, in the first place. When the Country of Israel was first given to the Jews by England (who did not own it in the first place? They did that a lot!) as they started to obtain handguns, they were in every size and shape, a big Hodgepodge of calibres, and mecanisms.
So the safest way to carry, full magazine, empty chamber, no worries on making it ready to fire quickly and safely. I rented a range to El Al and Consulate Officers in Toronto, for 16 years. Ending in 2003. When they went to Glocks in 9mm, this practice stopped. Could they have used Police Ranges for free? Of course, but having a group of Police Officers watching them run their training? Not happening. One exercise (I have not been involved with them since 2003) so all this must have long since been changed. Draw and fire 3 rounds at a cardboard silhouette, at 15 yards, run quickly down range, fire a round into a 4" balloon, taped underneath the target. Bursting the balloon. Not a group to mess with. |
May 9, 2018, 02:54 PM | #35 | |
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For personal protection it depends. Most of the time I agree there should be one in the chamber if the gun is carried in a holster that covers the trigger. But there are exceptions when an unloaded chamber is better. There are times when a gun is stored or carried with no holster and I would prefer no round in the chamber then. In fact if the gun is not strapped onto my body it takes 2 hands to remove it from a holster anyway. It would be faster to get it into action if left out of the holster without a chambered round than in a holster with a round chambered. And it would be extremely rare for the extra 1/2 second to really matter.
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May 10, 2018, 07:55 PM | #36 |
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In my opinion, carrying a firearm without a round in the chamber is nothing but amaturistic protectionist nonsense. If you want to carry on empty.. I wont try to talk you out of it but please get some training.
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May 10, 2018, 09:08 PM | #37 | ||
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Further, the carry on an empty chamber mantra of the military has much more to do with handing 19 year olds fully automatic weapons than it does with the actual safety level of competent people carrying with a round in the chamber. I always though it was stupid honestly. We had to hit a clearing barrel several times a day in country if we were on Camp Fallujah... the chow hall, the barber shop, and a couple of other places as I recall. Their stupid policy of requiring Joes and Lance Criminals to manipulate the weapon to clear it when they kept live rounds on their person daily was probably more dangerous than just keeping weapons condition 1 all the time. Quote:
Further, I'm not a fan of carrying any other way. I will not denigrate it, but purse or bag carry is not in my personal comfort zone.
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May 10, 2018, 10:16 PM | #38 |
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Your off hand can be doing a lot more important things than racking a slide.
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May 11, 2018, 04:13 AM | #39 |
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Have you ever participated in exercises of the kind demonstrated by Dennis Tueller? An average assailant starting his attack with a contact weapon from a distance of around twenty feet can close that distance in the time it takes for a trained defender to draw and fire a handgun without racking a slide.
i have and twice my son hit me before i cleared leather. in this case i knew he was coming. perp situation you mite not. i know a few people better than i am and most of them ended in a draw. please no comment on paragraphing |
May 11, 2018, 04:41 AM | #40 |
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I carry with one in the chamber. If I'm under violent attack, I may need my non-shooting hand for something other than chambering a round.
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May 11, 2018, 07:27 AM | #41 |
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Always chambered. They're designed to be carried that way.
Keyword in the word gunfight is "fight". I recommend you take a force on force class with simunition rounds and attempt to carry in that manner. Nothing is more eye-opening than a force on force class to dispell all these silly myths. Knife attacks, unchambered rounds, weird carry positions, etc. |
May 11, 2018, 07:35 AM | #42 | |
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Military/LE veteran here with almost 4 decades of service. I carry Glocks or revolvers, same operation, point and click (boom).
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May 11, 2018, 07:38 AM | #43 |
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I carry one in the chamber, the mag topped off and I carry a BUG so that's 2 with one in the pipe. Foolish to do otherwise.
The only time I support one not in the chamber is a long gun carried in a vehicle, I carry them cruiser ready.
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May 11, 2018, 08:22 AM | #44 | |
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May 11, 2018, 09:21 AM | #45 |
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Try running a gun with one hand. Been there when injured and in an injured shooter class which I took when I had a broken wrist and ribs. I took it anyway. Why not?
Easy to get a hand injured or tied up in a fight. So drop the low probability hypotheticals and be realistic.
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May 11, 2018, 10:08 AM | #46 | |
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May 11, 2018, 10:23 AM | #47 | |
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In the right situation it is life or death. I am unwilling to take that chance and trained and experienced to the point that it is unnecessary. It was the right answer for the Israelis post WWII with the influx of oddball guns and an untrained populace.
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May 11, 2018, 10:45 AM | #48 |
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One simple test is to do some realistic FOF for those of us who haven't been in professions that led them into life threatening situations.
See how the unchambered gun works in various problems to be solved. Half a second is pretty long.
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May 11, 2018, 11:54 AM | #49 |
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Tueller drill aside, irrelevant in SD for the most part. Unless he has presented a weapon it does you no good at all. Your personal space is not 21 feet.
A criminal is going to close to within striking distance before he does anything at all. His body language may or may not broadcast his intent. You will need that off hand to clear your space, to establish distance. That is why it is important that you be able to draw and fire your weapon with one hand. 25 years in corrections teaches you how criminals act. |
May 11, 2018, 06:59 PM | #50 |
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Allways, when out and about, holstered? Chamber loaded, Glock 19.
Except when babysitting, our two wee ones, who climb all over us! Little boy 5 Young Lady, seven. Track pants, right pocket. Dressed to travel, Kydex holster, chamber never loaded. |
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