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Old February 8, 2020, 04:04 PM   #26
reynolds357
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Originally Posted by stagpanther View Post
The receivers are built like tanks--and the pre-64's have the highly-desirable controlled-feed mauser style bolt. Many think the switch to the push feed bolt was the death knell of the post-64 model 70's--though the receiver is still "a monster."
I like the push feed model better. Control feed being more reliable is a myth that has been repeatedly debunked.
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Old February 9, 2020, 02:59 AM   #27
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I like the push feed model better. Control feed being more reliable is a myth that has been repeatedly debunked.
It's probably a historical context thing--though apparently big 5 dangerous game hunters can make a pretty good argument for control feed. The safety is just a tad kludgy for my tastes but bomb-proof simple in stopping the firing pin, otherwise I really love the over-all design of the receiver. The only other small beef I'd address would be having a bolt knob with better scope clearance. The Weatherby ammo finally came in (I shot a few of my own 130 gr Berger hunting hybrid handloads and they did quite well--but they only shoot weatherly factory stuff) and today looks like the only break I have in our stormy weather weather to try em out, it's 5 degrees outside right now.
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Old February 9, 2020, 03:05 PM   #28
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I went out and tried the factory weatherby stuff--which generally shoots very well and consistently in the other weatherby rifles I've shot it through. Temperature was around 20, but after a couple of groups that flew really wide I decided to put the cartridges in my pocket and shoot them pretty fast. This group was the best I could do--but I wouldn't represent it as "typical all-day long" It's average velocity was 200 fps slower than what weatherby lists on their box, though the SD was a very acceptable 11 fps (out of 8 shots recorded). This group took everything I had to steady on the rests, and obviously will not be a reliable indicator of what to expect shooting while hunting. The barrel is free-floated, but I'm not convinced that's such a great idea with this particular cartridge and a fairly slim sporter profile barrel. I'm sure there's a very good reason Weatherby chooses to put a pressure point on the larger magnum sporter barrels, I'm guessing it has to do with timing and barrel "whiplash"--but that's a bit above my pay grade and would certainly welcome commentary by Bart and/or unclenick on that. In any event, I'm going to tell the owner's daughter we need to go out and do a session together to get this rifle tuned to her shooting style. The trijicon scope generally shoots well, but I found shooting into the sun--hard with any optic--was especially bad with it.

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Old February 9, 2020, 03:38 PM   #29
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Yup! That's minute of barn door accuracy right thar!!!

My advise....
Take a piece of cardboard, and wedge between the barrel and forestock. You can play with position and how thick. Then mark forestock ( NO, NOT a permenant Sharpie!!) and lay in some fibreglass matting (YES, with the resin) for your pressure point.

Ruger 77 has pressure point in their forestock. Removing it voids any accuracy warranty.
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Old February 9, 2020, 05:11 PM   #30
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Thanks for the suggestion--I thought about that but I need to clear with her daddy first.
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Old February 9, 2020, 05:22 PM   #31
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That sounded so wrong!!!
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Old February 9, 2020, 05:29 PM   #32
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you are a bad boy...no soup for you!
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Old February 9, 2020, 08:34 PM   #33
Bart B.
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My advise....
Take a piece of cardboard, and wedge between the barrel and forestock. You can play with position and how thick. Then mark forestock ( NO, NOT a permenant Sharpie!!) and lay in some fibreglass matting (YES, with the resin) for your pressure point.⁹
After doing that, will the pressure on the barrel always be the same regardless of how the rifle's held when fired?
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Old February 9, 2020, 08:45 PM   #34
stagpanther
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After doing that, will the pressure on the barrel always be the same regardless of how the rifle's held when fired?
That's a problem right there--I know sometimes it will be freehand shot (though my guess pretty rarely) otherwise braced on a pack, tree branch or stand rail. I thought maybe just putting some spacer material in the area atop the front sling swivel might be a good idea?

On a different note, the chamber throat/freebore must be amazingly long (or perhaps worn)--using a modified gage I couldn't get a 129 gr LRX to engage the lands without falling out of the case mouth.
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Old February 9, 2020, 10:29 PM   #35
Bart B.
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That's a problem right there--I know sometimes it will be freehand shot (though my guess pretty rarely) otherwise braced on a pack, tree branch or stand rail. I thought maybe just putting some spacer material in the area atop the front sling swivel might be a good idea?
When the round fires, the barreled action starts vibrating. So does the stock fore end. All before the bullet leaves. If you think the barrel should vibrate the same for each shot fired, shouldn't there be ample clearance from barrel to stock to let that happen?

As the stock also vibrates, if it's resting on anything hard it'll bounce off it. Amount varies with how hard it is.

https://www.varmintal.com/amode.htm

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Old February 10, 2020, 12:16 AM   #36
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When the round fires, the barreled action starts vibrating. So does the stock fore end. All before the bullet leaves. If you think the barrel should vibrate the same for each shot fired, shouldn't there be ample clearance from barrel to stock to let that happen?

As the stock also vibrates, if it's resting on anything hard it'll bounce off it. Amount varies with how hard it is.
Theoretically--yes. But there are two separate things going on--the whip of the barrel, and the foreend is also flexible enough, even though it's wood, that it bends even under light pressure so that the "rebound" could vary from one shot to the next. I think to truly free float the barrel I'd need to take down the channel quite a bit and then bed the entire stock.
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Old February 10, 2020, 08:33 AM   #37
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Theoretically--yes. But there are two separate things going on--the whip of the barrel, and the foreend is also flexible enough, even though it's wood, that it bends even under light pressure so that the "rebound" could vary from one shot to the next. I think to truly free float the barrel I'd need to take down the channel quite a bit and then bed the entire stock.
Why not epoxy bed just the receiver and totally free float the barrel so the stock fore end and barrel can whip and wiggle at their own resonant and harmonic frequencies? Especially those of the barrel. External force on the fore end will bend it so some clearance to the barrel is needed else the barrel will whip and wiggle different from shot to shot.

That's the standard procedure for match winning record setting bolt action target rifles.

Last edited by Bart B.; February 10, 2020 at 08:48 AM.
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Old February 10, 2020, 09:06 AM   #38
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I like the push feed model better. Control feed being more reliable is a myth that has been repeatedly debunked.
Both styles proved equally reliable in NRA high power competition rapid fire matches shooting 10 shot strings in 60 seconds. Big game guides in Africa liked big bore bolt guns on Winchester 70 and magnum mauser 98 style control feed actions reliability.

Remington's 700 and 40X were problems with broken extractors and feeding rounds from magazines. These box magazine actions are less than half as stiff as the Winchester 70 ones.

Last edited by Bart B.; February 10, 2020 at 09:21 AM.
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Old February 10, 2020, 10:47 AM   #39
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Ok, 2 things...
First, the Weatherby Magnums use lots of freebore. To get speed, you need pressure. And Weatherbys are all about speed. If the bullet is contacting the lands, you can get quite a pressure spike. Sudden raises in pressure (spike) are not desirable. And if bad enough can be flat out dangerous.
Weatherby combats the pressure spike by giving the bullet a good jump. (this is a lesson learned from single shot, lever, and auto/semi auto firearms). While this helps keep spikes in check, when making the cartridge, you want as little bullet runnout as possible.
Theory, the straighter the bullet when it contacts the rifling, the straighter it comes out of the muzzle.

Second,
With changing shooting rests, comes changing pressure on the forestock. (as long as it's rested on the forestock and not the barrel, i see it all too often!)
With a raised pressure point, it won't matter where the pressure is applied from a rest, it will still transfer to that raised pressure point between the stock and barrel.

Another option would be to full length bed, ala Melvin Forbes with his Forbes, and now New Ultra Light Arms.
Doing this gives zero flex on the stock, although the stock needs to be fairly stiff to begin with.
And i'd use Devcon for this, not Acraglass.
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Old February 10, 2020, 11:05 AM   #40
Bart B.
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With changing shooting rests, comes changing pressure on the forestock. (as long as it's rested on the forestock and not the barrel, i see it all too often!)
With a raised pressure point, it won't matter where the pressure is applied from a rest, it will still transfer to that raised pressure point between the stock and barrel.

Another option would be to full length bed, ala Melvin Forbes with his Forbes, and now New Ultra Light Arms.
Doing this gives zero flex on the stock, although the stock needs to be fairly stiff to begin with.
And i'd use Devcon for this, not Acraglass.
The fore end is not as stiff as the barrel. Measure them and you'll find out. Competitive shooters know this as the sling's changing force on the forends moves point of impact most notably with M1 and M14 rifles. Especially when slung up in prone wherein the point-of-impact moves horizontally as the front elbow position changes left or right.

Note the force on the barrel at that point will vary which changes the spread of line of fire to the line of sight.

Note the recoil axis (the bore axis) on those Forbes rifles is above the butt plate and the rifle's center of mass. That'll bend and flex the stock from recoil during barrel time. Exactly like all conventional stock shapes. It also makes the barrel bend during barrel time. Melvin Forbes is either ignorant or false advertising.

Last edited by Bart B.; February 10, 2020 at 12:28 PM.
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Old February 10, 2020, 12:11 PM   #41
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Thanks for the thoughtful advice. There's yet another factor in the equation--this rifle is also an heirloom legacy gun so I might be limited in what I can modify taking it out of original configuration. I think I need to get my ducks in a row and make a "choices" presentation.
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Old February 10, 2020, 03:09 PM   #42
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I recommend trying 150 grain bullets, especially the Nosler Partition, before making alterations to the rifle. How small does a five shot group have to be before the owner is satisfied? It's a hunting rifle....and a very nice one at that.
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Old February 10, 2020, 03:28 PM   #43
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I recommend trying 150 grain bullets, especially the Nosler Partition
That is what I zeroed the rifle to; weatherby's 150 gr partitions factory ammo. It shoots them just fine--certainly within specs of what you can expect from a typical weatherby hunting rifle. The issue as I see it is consistency depending upon the position the rifle is held; I think that's why you won't likely find a lightweight hunter with a sporter slim barrel profile in weatherby rifles without a foreend pressure point.
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Old February 10, 2020, 04:34 PM   #44
Bart B.
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That is what I zeroed the rifle to; weatherby's 150 gr partitions factory ammo. It shoots them just fine--certainly within specs of what you can expect from a typical weatherby hunting rifle. The issue as I see it is consistency depending upon the position the rifle is held; I think that's why you won't likely find a lightweight hunter with a sporter slim barrel profile in weatherby rifles without a foreend pressure point.
Here's what Weatherby says about their barrels:
Quote:
We have found through our testing that barrels having a smaller outside diameter than our #3 contour require upward pressure to help stabilize the barrel for increased accuracy. Our free floated barrels have enough rigidity in the barrel for them to be free floated.
I used to shoot matches with the stock maker who designed and made a lot of Weatherby's first stocks. He was also a master class high power rifle competitor who made popular target rifle stocks. He tried to get Roy Weatherby to free float all his rifle barrels for best accuracy but Mr. Weatherby refused. Also suggested the receiver faces be squared up so a 20+ shot accuracy guarantee could be offered instead of 3 shots. Again refused. He quit Weatherby then moved from Southgate, California to Boulder, Nevada to make stocks. P. J. Wright passed some years ago.

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Old February 10, 2020, 07:14 PM   #45
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That's some cool trivia Bart--thanks for that. At the end of the day, my feeling is that Roy was first and foremost a hunter's rifle maker. I've come to the conclusion his design philosophy was to make a cartridge that was able to deliver to the hunter the longest, flattest "point blank" range possible--in other words giving average hunters the capability of a high probability of a clean kill out to 400 yds +/- with as little fuss or worry about adjusting elevation/windage as possible.That's just my impression after shooting them, never seen that in writing anywhere.
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Old February 10, 2020, 08:02 PM   #46
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Most of the Push Feed model 70's are very much under rated and under valued. Especially those made in the 1980's and 1990's. The quality could be a bit spotty during the 60s' and 70's, but that looks like an 80's rifle. Winchester brought back CRF in 1992 with their Classic rifles but kept making the PF versions as their budget guns until going under in 2006. When FN brought the model 70 back in 2008 they discontinued the PF rifles.

You can often find them at very good prices. I've had a few over the years and liked them better than Remington.

The advantages of CRF are often misunderstood. The word "FEED" in the phrase makes people think they FEED more reliably. Not so. There is no difference in the reliability of FEEDING between CRF and PF. And under "normal" hunting conditions with a reasonably clean rifle there is no advantage whatsoever.

CRF's biggest advantage is more a more rugged, simple, fool proof ejection and extraction system. If you're hunting in icy, cold, snowy, muddy, or dusty conditions where the rifle has a good chance of getting filthy they are more likely to extract and eject where a PF could fail.

And on all pre 2008 Winchesters, even the PF rifles, they used one of the most rugged, reliable triggers ever devised. It isn't easy to adjust for the best trigger pull, but is as reliable as ever made.

I have both PF and CRF rifles and most of the time don't have a preference. But when I'm hunting at 11,000' in single digit temps in snow miles from the road that advantage might make a difference.
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Old February 11, 2020, 10:03 AM   #47
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Next up is a 416 Weatherby magnum--now that is going to be an experience I'm sure I won't forget. I've got some hard-hitters in recoil, but nothing even close to this.
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Old February 11, 2020, 03:48 PM   #48
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If it has a break on it, it won't be so bad.

If not, shoot with your mouth closed so you won't swallow any fillings from your teeth.
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Old February 11, 2020, 04:01 PM   #49
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If it has a break on it, it won't be so bad.
That's what I figured--I can't find one on Weatherby's site that doesn't have one. I did the math, if the brake cuts about 50% of the recoil that brings it down around 41 ft lbs--which is similar to my 375 ruger which does not have a brake. Not something I want to shoot all day though...especially @ $150 for 20 cartridges.
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Old February 14, 2020, 07:52 PM   #50
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Back on subject--I want to shoot some handloads tomorrow for the model 70--but it's headed to 22 below zero tonight in parts of Maine.
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