Can't get CVA Kentucky Rifle to fire???? - Page 2

Hawg · March 14, 2018, 06:33 PM

Quote:

he means the powder channel on the sidelock version.

You say side lock version like there's another version of a Mountain Rifle but I gotcha.

drobs · March 14, 2018, 09:58 PM

Recommend you order 10lbs of Graf's BP. Price is $187.85 to your door.

FFFg
https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog...productId/5405

pete2 · March 15, 2018, 11:06 AM

Many years ago I had a CVA Mountain rifle, it would misfire/hang fire once in a while, more so with Pyrodex than with FFG. I installed a Hot Shot nipple. No more problems. Try one if they're still available, best 5.00 you'll ever spend.

Hawg · March 15, 2018, 12:50 PM

A Hot Shot won't last but about 10 years or so.

Prof Young · March 17, 2018, 09:32 PM

I've ordered a "mag spark" which converts the percussion cap nipple into a well that takes a 209 primer. The well has a screw on cap with a little firing pin to hit the 209. I suspect it will do the trick, but we'll see. It was a bit more than $5.

Life is good.
Prof Young

ThomasT · March 17, 2018, 10:24 PM

I have owned and own several CVA/Traditions BP rifles and never had to resort to some strange aftermarket nipple to get my guns to fire properly. Do you not have anyone to help you? If not then get one of the black powder handbooks written by Sam Fadala and study it. This not hard to do. But an experienced shooter will go a long way towards getting you started down the right path.

Road_Clam · March 18, 2018, 06:40 AM

I have a Traditions Pennslyvania flintlock with a patent style breech. I'll just say it's not a good design. Very difficult to maintain consistent ignitions, especially if your a new ML shooter. Here's a link to DIY tool I fabbed to effectively scrub the patent breech :

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fu...rch/1/#1653986

Lastly, i've done a lot of reading and the experts comment that Pyrodex is a poor performing substitute for real "Black" powder.

Hawg · March 18, 2018, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Lastly, i've done a lot of reading and the experts comment that Pyrodex is a poor performing substitute for real "Black" powder.

Actually it is a good performing sub. All I use is either Swiss or Pyrodex.

Prof Young · March 18, 2018, 10:29 PM

Smoke pole shooters -
Thanks to one and all for the help and suggestions. This is what makes this forum so great. Lots to learn, lots to learn.

Life is good.
Prof Young

Sure Shot Mc Gee · March 19, 2018, 12:01 AM

Quote:

That's simply not true. Pyrodex is no worse than bp.

Really. What experience do you have to share?
Just saying:
My experiences. A young fellow came to me asking why his Traditions traditional wouldn't fire. I found enough pyrodex residue in his breech {I believe} which over time had built up to a point the residue plugged his rifles firing channel. Only tool that came to my mind to resolve? >the need of a breech scrapper.< as I've never encountered such a disappointing powder situation before.

Took my range rod and spun & spun that scrapper until I felt no resistance. A white powdery hardened ash like substance was removed from the breech area. Quite a bit of it. I actually saved all by pouring into a ash tray and too held some in the palm of my hand. Once removed. The rifle functioned as it should.
I informed the young feller and showed him the ash. I asked him what powder he was shooting?_ "No more Pyrodex RS goes down that barrel!!" so I was informed in less than a kindly way.

I've been shooting my B/P rifles since the mid 80s and not once have I had to use a barrel scrapper to clear my barrels breech of Gorex 2-FFG residue.

I've also been shooting homemade {screened B/P} going on three years. Pounds made and fired in my rifles and You know as well as I {screened only} B/P is perhaps the most fouling of all. But not once have I even found a need to scrap its fouling.

I'm highly suspect a cleaning will totally remove all Pyrodex fouling without a bore bristle brush. Especially ~when setting the rifle aside for a couple days before its barrel cleaning.
"Pyrodex use guarantee's the hardest fouling crud a shooter will ever encounter." No doubt about it!!!

Hawg · March 19, 2018, 12:15 PM

I've been shooting bp since 1969 and Pyrodex since it first came out. I don't even own a breech scraper or brushes. All I use are bore mops. I don't swab between shots. I sometimes let guns sit for two or three days before cleaning and they're no harder to clean than bp and there's no rust or corrosion. The only problem I have ever experienced with Pyrodex is slow firing in a 63 Sharps because of the two bends in the firing channel. It never failed to fire with it it just sounded like a poorly timed flintlock. So yes I have a lot of experience with it. I prefer Swiss but when I can't get Swiss Pyrodex is my go to powder and I use a lot of it.

ThomasT · March 19, 2018, 05:55 PM

Quote:

My experiences. A young fellow came to me asking why his Traditions traditional wouldn't fire. I found enough pyrodex residue in his breech {I believe} which over time had built up to a point the residue plugged his rifles firing channel. Only tool that came to my mind to resolve? >the need of a breech scrapper.< as I've never encountered such a disappointing powder situation before.

Thats not really a powder problem. Thats a cleaning problem and that can happen with real BP too. I bought a CVA off GB just a few months ago and it came with a load of BP and a round ball in it. I finally got the ball out but was never able to get the powder out till I dribbled powder down the nipple and blew most of the charge out. And the breech of the barrel was ruined it was pitted so badly. I told the seller and it scared him so bad he refunded my money and told me to keep the gun. I gave the gun to another guy for parts. Or saw off the front of the barrel and make a pistol.

I clean my patent breach the same way poster #11 recommended. And I use water soluable oil to clean my guns and use it as a patch lube. Thats all I've used for 20+ years and never had any rust.

mehavey · March 19, 2018, 06:27 PM

I'm in SureShot's camp.

I cannot count the times that as a Range Officer I've been
called over to solve a can't-get-it-to-go-off problem -- only
to find Pyrodex under the ball.

Blow it out with some 3F under the nipple; load it back up
with real BP that I'm carrying; and he's off to the races for
the rest of the day w/ borrowed BP.....

When asked how to pay me back, I say "don't worry about it...."

But somehow when I next see those folks -- as often as not --
they come with an extra pound for me anyway.

Hawg · March 19, 2018, 07:26 PM

I can only relate to my own experiences as I don't shoot at a range and have no idea how others lube, load or clean their guns.

Road_Clam · March 20, 2018, 05:29 AM

With my patent breech design i'm learning that FFFG is better suited than FFG. Seems the slightly finer powder falls into the narrow portion of the breech and allows better ignitions. After dropping the powder charge a few palm thumps on the stock also seem to help get some powder down in the smaller hole. If I see a few kernels of FFFG in my primer pan that's a good sign i'll get a good ignition.

Hawg · March 20, 2018, 08:24 AM

I had an Investarms Hawken I bought in 78 or 79 that was used exclusively with Pyrodex until 2010 when I traded it in on another rifle. I never had any kind of problem with it.

DD4lifeusmc · March 20, 2018, 08:31 AM

I have a couple brand new ones from when I had my store
I got a few thousand rounds through mine on my CVA mountain rifle

also after you pour your powder in turn the rifle sideways hammer side down and thump the down side of the stock this will settle powder into the channel closer to the cap.

Prof Young · March 25, 2018, 09:50 PM

Okay so I got the mag spark, which lets one use 209 primers instead of percussion caps. It fit the nipple hole just fine, but the hammer would not come down over the whole thing the way it should. Turns out the nipple, as it was originally installed, is not well lined up with the hammer. Looking at the drum I had to turn it a fraction of an inch counter clockwise to get it to line up correctly. Had not noticed this before. I think the hammer was not coming down square on the percussion cap nipple which may have been part of the original problem. Hmmmmm . . . .
Anyway I got the mag-spark installed. On the not so good side I have to have the hammer at full cock to get the cap that screws on over the primer on to the nipple threads. (Check out mag spark on line to get the idea.) Anyway the 209 primers really do the job. Eight shots in a row with no cleaning of any kind and no failures of any kind. Shooting a 225 gr Powerbelt I was getting about a ten inch group with 80 gr of pyrodex powder. Tried it at 85 grains and got a five inch group with my last three shots. This was at 65 yards off a sandbag bench rest. I now feel confident enough to use this for Whitetail come this Fall.

Life is good.
Prof Young

In The Ten Ring · March 26, 2018, 06:11 AM

Glad you got it going. First gun I bought as an adult (18) was a CVA Bobcat muzzleloader. It does not have a patent breech.

To get it to hit I had Thompson Center adjustable sights put on. To make it fire, I went with a musket nipple and caps.

To make it accurate, I would swab the bore between shots. 80 grains of Pyrodex and a patched round ball and I could hit a soda can at 100 yards.

To make it reliable during hunting, piece of tape over muzzle, wrap action in plastic wrap and tape it off. Sounds crazy but otherwise the least bit of fog and hangfire city.

I've fired mine nearly 200 times, never any rust. I kept it crazy clean though.

I finally bought (used) three Thompson Center Flintlocks, but haven't fired any of those.

Join the www.muzzleloadingforum.com if you are serious about muzzleloading.

**4V50 Gary** · March 26, 2018, 12:53 PM

Sprinkle some 3F down the barrel before you put in the pyrodex. Pyrodex is harder to ignite and the 3F will give it a kick start.

ThomasT · March 26, 2018, 09:09 PM

It sure seems to me you are making a simple job as hard as possible. Did you try to get one of the Sam Fadala black powder books I suggested?

You really need to find somebody to give you a hand.

Buy this book. It will answer your questions. Even the ones you haven't thought of yet. I almost gave up on BP because I couldn't hit anything with my gun. I found out I had a patch problem. Once that was corrected I was shooting great groups with a gun that went off just as fast as a center fire gun.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Complet...item1edb9067cd

Good luck. I hope you get this figured out.

maillemaker · March 28, 2018, 09:18 AM

I do not think anyone in this thread mentioned this, but before firing any caplock firearm it is a very good idea to "snap caps" on an unloaded weapon first. That is, fire off 2-3 percussion caps without loading the weapon. The blast from the cap blows out any oil or other wet residue that may be in the fire channel.

It has been many years since I used Pyrodex, but I also had a corrosion problem with it. I had a BP revolver and figured I could wait a couple of days to clean it. When I got to it it was actively corroding.

I have shot in black powder competition for 7 years now and sometimes I don't get all the guns clean until a week after the competition. The fouling just turns into a grey crust but never harms the metal of the gun. Just an anecdote but I think the Pyrodex fouling is more corrosive.

Steve

**4V50 Gary** · March 29, 2018, 12:28 PM

Great reminder maillemaker. When one snaps the cap, they should have the muzzle downward and pointed against a blade of grass. Look for the grass to move from the gases of the cap. If there's no movement, resort to the nipple pick and try again.

ThomasT · March 29, 2018, 03:43 PM

Before I go shooting I just blow air through the barrel with an air compressor and hose. Always works for me. I hope the OP gets his gun figured out. BP rifles can be frustrating especially if you don't have a mentor. But I have never had a problem getting one to go off unless I loaded the ball without the powder.

But even thats and easy fix. I ground up about 200grs of black and made a copper tub with a small nipple on it for dribbling down the nipple hole. Fire that and it poops the ball right out.

March 14, 2018, 09:58 PM	#27
drobs Senior Member Join Date: July 17, 2015 Location: South Central MO / Africa Posts: 1,111	Recommend you order 10lbs of Graf's BP. Price is $187.85 to your door. FFFg https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog...productId/5405 __________________ NRA Life Member

March 17, 2018, 09:32 PM	#30
Prof Young Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2007 Location: Illinois - down state Posts: 2,404	Mag Spark ordered . . . I've ordered a "mag spark" which converts the percussion cap nipple into a well that takes a 209 primer. The well has a screw on cap with a little firing pin to hit the 209. I suspect it will do the trick, but we'll see. It was a bit more than $5. Life is good. Prof Young

March 18, 2018, 06:40 AM	#32
Road_Clam Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2013 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 1,695	I have a Traditions Pennslyvania flintlock with a patent style breech. I'll just say it's not a good design. Very difficult to maintain consistent ignitions, especially if your a new ML shooter. Here's a link to DIY tool I fabbed to effectively scrub the patent breech : http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fu...rch/1/#1653986 Lastly, i've done a lot of reading and the experts comment that Pyrodex is a poor performing substitute for real "Black" powder. __________________ "To be old an wise you must have been young and stupid"

March 18, 2018, 10:29 PM	#34
Prof Young Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2007 Location: Illinois - down state Posts: 2,404	Thanks to one and all. Smoke pole shooters - Thanks to one and all for the help and suggestions. This is what makes this forum so great. Lots to learn, lots to learn. Life is good. Prof Young

March 20, 2018, 05:29 AM	#40
Road_Clam Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2013 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 1,695	With my patent breech design i'm learning that FFFG is better suited than FFG. Seems the slightly finer powder falls into the narrow portion of the breech and allows better ignitions. After dropping the powder charge a few palm thumps on the stock also seem to help get some powder down in the smaller hole. If I see a few kernels of FFFG in my primer pan that's a good sign i'll get a good ignition. __________________ "To be old an wise you must have been young and stupid"

March 15, 2018, 11:06 AM	#28
pete2 Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 2,566	Many years ago I had a CVA Mountain rifle, it would misfire/hang fire once in a while, more so with Pyrodex than with FFG. I installed a Hot Shot nipple. No more problems. Try one if they're still available, best 5.00 you'll ever spend.

March 15, 2018, 12:50 PM	#29
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	A Hot Shot won't last but about 10 years or so.

March 17, 2018, 10:24 PM	#31
ThomasT Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 2,753	I have owned and own several CVA/Traditions BP rifles and never had to resort to some strange aftermarket nipple to get my guns to fire properly. Do you not have anyone to help you? If not then get one of the black powder handbooks written by Sam Fadala and study it. This not hard to do. But an experienced shooter will go a long way towards getting you started down the right path.

March 19, 2018, 12:15 PM	#36
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	I've been shooting bp since 1969 and Pyrodex since it first came out. I don't even own a breech scraper or brushes. All I use are bore mops. I don't swab between shots. I sometimes let guns sit for two or three days before cleaning and they're no harder to clean than bp and there's no rust or corrosion. The only problem I have ever experienced with Pyrodex is slow firing in a 63 Sharps because of the two bends in the firing channel. It never failed to fire with it it just sounded like a poorly timed flintlock. So yes I have a lot of experience with it. I prefer Swiss but when I can't get Swiss Pyrodex is my go to powder and I use a lot of it.

March 19, 2018, 06:27 PM	#38
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,886	I'm in SureShot's camp. I cannot count the times that as a Range Officer I've been called over to solve a can't-get-it-to-go-off problem -- only to find Pyrodex under the ball. Blow it out with some 3F under the nipple; load it back up with real BP that I'm carrying; and he's off to the races for the rest of the day w/ borrowed BP..... When asked how to pay me back, I say "don't worry about it...." But somehow when I next see those folks -- as often as not -- they come with an extra pound for me anyway.

March 19, 2018, 07:26 PM	#39
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	I can only relate to my own experiences as I don't shoot at a range and have no idea how others lube, load or clean their guns.

March 20, 2018, 08:24 AM	#41
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	I had an Investarms Hawken I bought in 78 or 79 that was used exclusively with Pyrodex until 2010 when I traded it in on another rifle. I never had any kind of problem with it.

March 20, 2018, 08:31 AM	#42
DD4lifeusmc Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2012 Location: Wyoming Posts: 351	hot shots I have a couple brand new ones from when I had my store I got a few thousand rounds through mine on my CVA mountain rifle also after you pour your powder in turn the rifle sideways hammer side down and thump the down side of the stock this will settle powder into the channel closer to the cap.

March 25, 2018, 09:50 PM	#43
Prof Young Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2007 Location: Illinois - down state Posts: 2,404	More on CVA Kentucky Rifle Okay so I got the mag spark, which lets one use 209 primers instead of percussion caps. It fit the nipple hole just fine, but the hammer would not come down over the whole thing the way it should. Turns out the nipple, as it was originally installed, is not well lined up with the hammer. Looking at the drum I had to turn it a fraction of an inch counter clockwise to get it to line up correctly. Had not noticed this before. I think the hammer was not coming down square on the percussion cap nipple which may have been part of the original problem. Hmmmmm . . . . Anyway I got the mag-spark installed. On the not so good side I have to have the hammer at full cock to get the cap that screws on over the primer on to the nipple threads. (Check out mag spark on line to get the idea.) Anyway the 209 primers really do the job. Eight shots in a row with no cleaning of any kind and no failures of any kind. Shooting a 225 gr Powerbelt I was getting about a ten inch group with 80 gr of pyrodex powder. Tried it at 85 grains and got a five inch group with my last three shots. This was at 65 yards off a sandbag bench rest. I now feel confident enough to use this for Whitetail come this Fall. Life is good. Prof Young

March 26, 2018, 06:11 AM	#44
In The Ten Ring Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2018 Posts: 380	Glad you got it going. First gun I bought as an adult (18) was a CVA Bobcat muzzleloader. It does not have a patent breech. To get it to hit I had Thompson Center adjustable sights put on. To make it fire, I went with a musket nipple and caps. To make it accurate, I would swab the bore between shots. 80 grains of Pyrodex and a patched round ball and I could hit a soda can at 100 yards. To make it reliable during hunting, piece of tape over muzzle, wrap action in plastic wrap and tape it off. Sounds crazy but otherwise the least bit of fog and hangfire city. I've fired mine nearly 200 times, never any rust. I kept it crazy clean though. I finally bought (used) three Thompson Center Flintlocks, but haven't fired any of those. Join the www.muzzleloadingforum.com if you are serious about muzzleloading.

March 26, 2018, 12:53 PM	#45
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,832	Sprinkle some 3F down the barrel before you put in the pyrodex. Pyrodex is harder to ignite and the 3F will give it a kick start. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

March 26, 2018, 09:09 PM	#46
ThomasT Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 2,753	It sure seems to me you are making a simple job as hard as possible. Did you try to get one of the Sam Fadala black powder books I suggested? You really need to find somebody to give you a hand. Buy this book. It will answer your questions. Even the ones you haven't thought of yet. I almost gave up on BP because I couldn't hit anything with my gun. I found out I had a patch problem. Once that was corrected I was shooting great groups with a gun that went off just as fast as a center fire gun. https://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Complet...item1edb9067cd Good luck. I hope you get this figured out.

March 28, 2018, 09:18 AM	#47
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	I do not think anyone in this thread mentioned this, but before firing any caplock firearm it is a very good idea to "snap caps" on an unloaded weapon first. That is, fire off 2-3 percussion caps without loading the weapon. The blast from the cap blows out any oil or other wet residue that may be in the fire channel. It has been many years since I used Pyrodex, but I also had a corrosion problem with it. I had a BP revolver and figured I could wait a couple of days to clean it. When I got to it it was actively corroding. I have shot in black powder competition for 7 years now and sometimes I don't get all the guns clean until a week after the competition. The fouling just turns into a grey crust but never harms the metal of the gun. Just an anecdote but I think the Pyrodex fouling is more corrosive. Steve

March 29, 2018, 12:28 PM	#48
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,832	Great reminder maillemaker. When one snaps the cap, they should have the muzzle downward and pointed against a blade of grass. Look for the grass to move from the gases of the cap. If there's no movement, resort to the nipple pick and try again. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

March 29, 2018, 03:43 PM	#49
ThomasT Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 2,753	Before I go shooting I just blow air through the barrel with an air compressor and hose. Always works for me. I hope the OP gets his gun figured out. BP rifles can be frustrating especially if you don't have a mentor. But I have never had a problem getting one to go off unless I loaded the ball without the powder. But even thats and easy fix. I ground up about 200grs of black and made a copper tub with a small nipple on it for dribbling down the nipple hole. Fire that and it poops the ball right out.