CVA Scout V2 in 444 marlin

[fire4606]

http://cva.com/CVA-Store-View.php?id=936

Im looking to pick one of these up in 444 Marlin.

What is holding me back is the twist rate, i see plenty of info on the old 1:38" twist marlins and on newer 1:20" twist guns.

But these things are 1:14" and i cant find any info as to what that is going to work well for.

I want it for deer in a state where straight walled cartridges only can be used, so I dont need a twist for the bigger bullets, id be looking to use 265 to 300 grain handloaded bullets.

Does anyone have any experience with these yet?

[Pathfinder45]

Try posting this in the reloading section.

[T. O'Heir]

Normal twist is 1 in 20. Normal bullet weight is 240 grains too though.
You really don't need the extra recoil of heavy bullets for deer. Especially out of a 5.8 pound rifle.

[FrankenMauser]

1:14" twist!

Cheesus on a Cracker!

I really hope that's a typo, and it's supposed to read "1:24" Twist" instead.

.444 Marlin from 'standard-length' barrels (~20-24") needs nothing more than about 1:30" for common bullet weights (240-340 gr).
To err on the side of heavy stuff, a 1:24" or 1:28" twist would be fine.

But even the now-standard 1:20" twist is overkill.
I ran the numbers after getting my first .444 Marlin, while designing a custom heavy bullet, and found that the 20" twist was theoretically good for bullets in excess of 500 gr, all the way down to 1,200 fps. (And verified that it's good for 420-437 gr bullets, as slow as 1,400 fps, during testing.)

1:14" is major overkill for 240s to 300s.
It would probably do just fine with 265s. But I hope that's a typo. A 14" twist is nuts.



Edit:
I sent an email to CVA to see what's up with that twist rate. We'll see if they reply, and what the explanation is (if any).

[ThomasT]

Franken your Marlin 444 has a 1/38 twist not a 1/30.

[FrankenMauser]

None of my 444s have 1:38" twist rates. Standard Marlin 444s, 444Ts 444Ss, and 444SSs made prior to 1998 use that twist. (As well as most Euro barrels.)
But nearly everything else is between 1:20" and 1:30", including Winchester and H&R.
One of my barrels is 1:38" twist, but it isn't installed on anything.

The 1:30" reference was theoretical, based on bullet stability factors for common bullet weights, and previously an option from one of our European barrel makers (Lothar-Walther, I believe).


Regardless...
I just got a response from CVA.
The 1:14" twist is a typo.
The Scouts use the same barrel blanks as the Stalker, and all have a 1:20" twist.

[ThomasT]

Franken you are correct. After 1997 they went from a 1/38 twist to a 1/20 twist. At one time Winchester made the Big Bore 444 with a 1/12 twist. I have a Marlin 44 mag with a 1/38 twist and would love it if they made a 44 mag with a 1/20 twist. Even the Winchester 44-40 had a 1/30 twist. I have no idea who thought a 1/38 was a good rate for a 44 mag.

Here is a good read on the 444 from leverguns site. I bet you know about this site but if not its a great place to read about lever action rifles. Plus several other good tales to boot.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/fryxell/444marlin.htm

I wish I could find a 444 Marlin with the Ballard rifling and 1/20 twist. I had a 45/70 and it was OK. It sure flattened deer but had serious recoil even with 300gr bullets. My friend has a like new in the box 45/70 I could buy for $400 but I am holding out for the 444.

[FrankenMauser]

The common train of thought on Marlin's choice of 1:38" twist is that they were already making barrels for the .44 Mag models in 1:38" (that choice being based on preferred revolver twist rates, which, itself, dated back to .44-40). So, they saved some money and simplified production by using the same tooling for both models.

Some people have also claimed that Marlin was a little afraid of the early (.44 Mag) Remington 240 gr bullets being too weak to stand up to close-range impacts, particularly out of a tighter twist barrel. So, they stuck with the predominant .44 caliber twist of the time.

Personally... I think cost-savings and production simplification are the answer.

I wish I could find a 444 Marlin with the Ballard rifling and 1/20 twist. I had a 45/70 and it was OK. It sure flattened deer but had serious recoil even with 300gr bullets. My friend has a like new in the box 45/70 I could buy for $400 but I am holding out for the 444.

There's a (ballard, 1:20") 2007 Model 444 sitting in my safe, with one round fired since new (plus some dummies run through it to verify function). I still haven't figured out what to do with it.
Everything is for sale if the price is right...


Oh, and my previous statement about none of my 444s being 1:38" was incorrect. I just remembered that a '79 Model 336 that I converted to a 444 used a post-'75 (tip-cap style) Micro-Groove 444S barrel. As such, it would have been a 1:38" example. (Still is, but I traded it for a nice S&W 29-3.)

Thanks for the link. Hadn't seen that one.

[ThomasT]

If you read on the leverguns site you will see an article by Glen Fryxell that discusses the marlin micro groove barrels and he states the 44 and 444 barrels have different land and groove specs so 444 barrel is not just a stretched out 44 mag barrel. Thats a good site to spend time on.

Here is the link to the article on the micro groove barrels and the different sizes.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/fr...ve-barrels.htm

[ThomasT]

I wish CVA would offer a single shot 357 or better yet a 32 of some sort. I have always been fascinated by Rook & Rabbit rifles. THose would be a perfect American made version of those style of guns.

I have a Marlin 32 mag that I never shoot. It has maybe 100 rounds through it. But it is worth so much now I hate to sell it.

[drive_sideways]

A 444 in a CVA would be fun to fire a few rounds out of...
Almost bought one of these in 35 whelen.
Bet that woulda been fun to


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[fire4606]

Turns out the website is a typo, true twist is 1:20

Its shooting pretty good to start out....

[fire4606]

[ThomasT]

Nice rifle. How about some range results and pics if you have them?

OK you were posting pictures while I was typing. Nice groups.

[johnwilliamson062]

I keep waiting to see a 357 mag scout so I can send it off to be rechambered to max and finally say good bye to my encore.

444 Mag is really overkill for Ohio White tail inside 200 yards. As is 45-70.

[FrankenMauser]

That should do the job.


I know it'll probably sound a bit odd, but I actually got a bit of a chuckle out of the load data on the target. ...Because it seems like you and I are of the tiny minority of people using reasonable loads for .444 Marlin. Every time I turn around, I see people stuffing 60,000 psi loads into their rifles - even the Marlins - and they act like some one that chooses to stick with 42,000 psi loads is just a big sissy.


I will admit that my single-shot 444 has seen some stout loads. But I gave up on all of them. Its normal diet is standard-pressure.

[drive_sideways]

Originally Posted by fire4606

Nice grouping!!
Muzzle break on it to I see definitely cuts the recoil I bet.
Shot my 45/70 open sights at 50 yards, will post on a different topic later!


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[butwhat]

Does anyone know the twist rate on a TC Encore.444 Marlin Barrel?

I have an 18" with a brake.

I shot several 8 shot 2-1/2" groups at 100 yards with it. Using the 265 grain Leverevolution ammo

I had a mercury recoil reducer installed in the forearm. Had to go with 1/4-28 screws.
The recoil reducer ripped the forearm off with the little factory screws

I'm thinking about getting a rifle now. Which is how I came by this thread

[stagpanther]

I have a scout in 444 marlin, I came up with a very nice and tame non-gonzo load using 265 FTX's (be sure to trim cases to spec) using 43 grs. of H4198.