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Old February 11, 2020, 01:05 PM   #51
Brit
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When I lived in Toronto Canada. I was 12 times in Court as an expert witness.
One was to do with a pistol, loaded, and thrown under the rear of a raised portion of a house.

A complicated situation! A RCMP Sgt. leaving from the Toronto Airport, with a young new recruit, the Sgt. She was driving. They were in the outskirts of Toronto.
Driving behind a luxury SUV, a young black guy driving it.
Emergency lights came on. The SUV pulled over, the driver rabbited! Followed by the two Officers. (And soon by local Police) after half an hour, the driver was found under some type of cover. He was transported to 13 div. No not stolen, leased.
A search of the SUV discovered a Kilo of powdered cocaine, after some discussion, the kilo was transported to 31 Div.
The search was thrown out, no warrant. After a long search of the back yards, a S&W 9mm pistol was located, loaded. The Police said it belonged to the runner.

In the witness box, I requested the pistol and ammunition. I guessed it had been made safe! The Police were all carrying Glock .40 cal duty pistols.

The S&W was minus fingerprints, any ones. The pistol locked back 16 rounds of hollow point Ammo. Also minus fingerprints! I hazard a guess that the S&W and all cartridges were wiped clean. Taking the Police prints off the gun and ammo. 31 Div had no supervisors after 10 PM.
The accused said it was not his! So gun and drugs were not proved to belong
to the accused. He walked. One of my Students was now a Police Officer in 31 Div, he is a Patrol Supervisor. He told me to keep out of that area!
10-4 said I. I sold those Glocks to TPD. I pushed for 9mm, but not allowed.

Last edited by Brit; February 11, 2020 at 01:11 PM.
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Old February 11, 2020, 08:00 PM   #52
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Nice story. I don't see how it relates to the OP topic, though...
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Old February 12, 2020, 03:06 PM   #53
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You're not at fault as long as you were complying with what your laws require. Here in AZ., informing the officer is not required unless he or she asks. Unless there was something else that caused concern, it was not my practice to even ask. I made literally thousands of vehicle stops over 30+ years. I always assumed that drivers or occupants might be armed. This is the "Wild West" after all. Not required, but I always appreciated motorists letting me know they were armed. I just told them to leave their firearm wherever it was during our contact.

I observed a number of occasions where officers had taken control of weapons in this or that situation, sometimes just routine contacts, traffic stops,etc., and did not know how to make them safe. I was a firearms instructor and later an armorer, so sometimes got asked to unload the guns for them. The vast majority of officers have no interest, and little knowledge, about firearms beyond what they are paid to carry, train and qualify with. Some don't like guns at all. One implied that anyone with an interest in firearms beyond what the job required were, "Gun queers"....
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Old February 12, 2020, 03:47 PM   #54
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At a seminar recently, an attorney asked a question the planted axiom of which was that POs are expert marksmen. One could tell which of the guys in the room had much time with POs, because the ones who hadn't made the same assumption.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rock185
The vast majority of officers have no interest, and little knowledge, about firearms beyond what they are paid to carry, train and qualify with. Some don't like guns at all. One implied that anyone with an interest in firearms beyond what the job required were, "Gun queers"....
Indeed. Based on what they use on the job, a PO's most important piece of equipment is a good pen. He is going to use it all day, every day.

A casual hobbyist who finds some time to read up and regularly visits the range likely has much more trigger time with a wider variety of arms.
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Old February 13, 2020, 05:30 AM   #55
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The reason someone, anyone is proficient with the handling of firearms, is simple. They use them a lot. A uniformed Police Officer in the course of his day, or night at work. Drives a vehicle, interacts with motorists, and on foot citizens.

But does nothing with their duty weapon, day in, and day out. Except to qualify once, or twice a year. Say for one, or two hours a year.
Imagine the proficiency in driving, driving for that amount of time, behind the wheel of a hi-speed motor vehicle?
Can anyone hazard a guess on why this is so? Cost! Cost for time off the street, use of duty ammunition, range usage, supervision with firearms instructors, and maintenance of that range. That's just the way it is. The most shooting that takes place in the life of an LEO, is during the Police Academy training. At the start of their carrier. Five ten or twenty years ago.

Then you have some officers who train on their own time or even compete in the gun games, IDPA or IPSC. And then wear the mantle of Gun Nuts!

The good news, the average armed criminal is not that proficient either.
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Old February 13, 2020, 10:27 AM   #56
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My initial inclination was to only volunteer the information if I were in a state that required me to do so, but after making several long road trips across the country I have changed my plan. Despite preparing a list before I leave on one of these trips, showing whether or not each state requires me to notify the LEO immediately, I came to the realization that I am unable to commit all of this to memory. More than once as I was crossing a state line the thought went through my head of "Do I need to inform in this state, or not?". I would rather inform the LEO even if not required to do so than risk not informing when actually required to do so. So now my plan, even here in my own state, will be to hand the officer both my DL and my CCL and verbally state that I am licensed to carry a firearm and in fact am carrying at this time. I would never use the word "gun" and never start to remove the firearm from where it is unless instructed to do so by the officer. Now I no longer try to remember what I must do in each separate state. The exception to this might be if I ever found myself crossing through a state where my concealed carry is not legal, even though Federal law allows me to pass through such a state legally. I have no doubt that if passing through NJ or NY and I were stopped for a traffic violation, and voluntarily told the officer I was armed, that I would be arrested and locked up regardless of what Federal law allows.

Fortunately for me, in the 6 plus years that I have had a concealed carry license I have not been stopped even once for a traffic violation.
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Old February 13, 2020, 10:54 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brit
Then you have some officers who train on their own time or even compete in the gun games, IDPA or IPSC. And then wear the mantle of Gun Nuts!
In my youth, before the girl I would marry had concluded that I was a viable improvement project, a different girl dragged me to a Christmas party at which every one of the couple dozen fellows but me was a LEO of some kind.

One older fellow (he seemed very old to me at the time, but was probably only in his 50s) talked to me a bit about the trigger work an armorer had done on a revolver. He did it in a hushed tone, as if he were telling an off color joke in church. It reminds me of the look over each shoulder I do when a friend or neighbor asks about shooting.

There may be valid reasoning behind POs regarding a hobbyists interest as unrelated to what they do. Another former PO who purported to be a decent bullseye shooter had two stories about using his side arm and in both he missed the human target completely.
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Old February 13, 2020, 12:43 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
In my youth, before the girl I would marry had concluded that I was a viable improvement project, a different girl dragged me to a Christmas party at which every one of the couple dozen fellows but me was a LEO of some kind.

One older fellow (he seemed very old to me at the time, but was probably only in his 50s) talked to me a bit about the trigger work an armorer had done on a revolver. He did it in a hushed tone, as if he were telling an off color joke in church. It reminds me of the look over each shoulder I do when a friend or neighbor asks about shooting.

There may be valid reasoning behind POs regarding a hobbyists interest as unrelated to what they do. Another former PO who purported to be a decent bullseye shooter had two stories about using his side arm and in both he missed the human target completely.
The reason the hushed comment about the trigger was because carrying modified weapons, especially modified fire control, violates most department policies
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Old February 13, 2020, 01:11 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by JohnKSa View Post
Used to be a legal requirement in TX. I'm not sure if it still is or not, but I do know that if it is, the penalty for failing to inform has been removed.

That said, I still hand over my handgun permit when asked for my DL by an LEO. It has always (save for one time) generated a decidedly positive result.

That one exception was years ago. I was in a wreck, in the rain. A guy crossed the centerline and hit me head on. I guess the trooper was unhappy about responding in the rain and had someplace better to be. When I handed him my permit (as was required by law back in those days) he asked about the firearm and when I told him it was in the car, he responded by saying: "Well leave it there! We don't need anyone waving a gun around!". So not exactly a positive response, but not really all that negative either.
It is no longer a legal requirement. Also note in Texas it is legal to have a firearm in your vehicle, regardless of whether you have a LTC.
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Old February 13, 2020, 03:03 PM   #60
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In Michigan it is, or at least was, a legal requirement. I have never had an officer express any interest or care when I have told them "I have a concealed pistol license and am currently carrying a concealed pistol." while keeping my hands neatly on the wheel. The closest any have come to caring is asking "where". Its been almost disappointingly mundane and professional.
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Old February 13, 2020, 04:07 PM   #61
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In over 30 years of licensed carry I have been pulled over three times, and on each occasion I handed over my CWP along with my driver's license. The worst thing that happened (and not bad) was a guy giving a smart aleck response about it not being a license to violate traffic laws. I calmly replied that I understood that, but that I was making him aware of it as a courtesy so that he did not feel threatened. Another LEO present, who I took to be perhaps a training officer, took him aside immediately, talked to him for a couple of minutes, then came back my car and told me that I handled the situation appropriately, and thanked me for doing so.

The other two thanked me without the introductory snark. No one ever took my pistol, only told me to move slowly and keep my hands visible.

These were in Florida, where informing is not a requirement. I still think it wise for safety.
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Old February 13, 2020, 05:56 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reynolds357
The reason the hushed comment about the trigger was because carrying modified weapons, especially modified fire control, violates most department policies
This was about his competition pistol.

The hushed tone was, consistent with Brit's comment, because he didn't want the others hearing him discussing the topic.

It may not be intuitive to anyone in this thread. We write about guns online and consider shooting to be great and wholesome fun. Yet many don't see them as fun or even interesting, and that includes lots of POs.

Last edited by zukiphile; February 14, 2020 at 06:41 AM.
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Old February 13, 2020, 06:59 PM   #63
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Know your laws. It looks like you were under no obligation to notify law enforcement when stopped but are to provide your license immediately if requested.

It doesn't appear that you did anything wrong, but, as others have pointed out, it would be common courtesy to verbally notify the officer.
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Old February 13, 2020, 07:14 PM   #64
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The Glock 19 4th Gen I am carrying now, has a 4.5LB trigger, TruGlo Night Sights, extended slide lock/Release. And rides in a Glock $13.00 belt slide holster. Holds the Glock hi at 4 O-clock. G17 mag as a spare, surefire flashlight in a belt holster with that Mag. And Mass Ayoob says no modifying of your carry pistol? Sure.
Mass contacted me, cleared up what he actually said. Based on actual Court cases, altered trigger pulls, much to light, reduced to just a couple of lbs, would get you in trouble. And rightfully so.

Last edited by Brit; February 15, 2020 at 04:30 AM.
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Old February 14, 2020, 03:26 PM   #65
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Wisconsin, you have a duty to inform upon contact with LEO hdbiker
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Old February 15, 2020, 07:09 PM   #66
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Here in Arkieville we have some interesting situations.

Since I have a carry permit I am required by law to tell any LEO I interact with if I have a gun on me.

We also have journey travel carry and constitutional carry. I'm not aware of any requirement for someone carrying in either of those situations to inform a LEO.

Certainly a criminal has no requirement to inform because that would violate their right against self incrimination.

So why am I so special in the eyes of our legislators and LEO's?
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Old February 21, 2020, 11:29 AM   #67
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I don't offer any additional information, its constitutional carry here, no law that states a firearm must be declared. I rarely ever get pulled over but here occasionally they might ask "any weapons in the vehicle" - stating "yes" doesn't often even result in a follow up question rather it's just part of the traffic stop script they learn at the academy.

Once I had a car completely full of guns, was asked very nicely if I minded just standing outside for a couple minutes while he ran my license and the young officer handed my license back with a "hey you should really get this inspected". Police are nice here and I have never heard of them fumbling around with people's guns...

Many police officers are vets, many own their own guns and do shoot. Generally as a population they are plenty capable of unloading a 1911, but here nobody is doing that unless they already put you in cuffs to my knowledge.. maybe in other places it's different.
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Old February 21, 2020, 01:22 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riffraff
Many police officers are vets, many own their own guns and do shoot. Generally as a population they are plenty capable of unloading a 1911, but here nobody is doing that unless they already put you in cuffs to my knowledge.. maybe in other places it's different.
I respectfully disagree. Perhaps in your area police are "generally" capable of unloading a 1911. Around here, generally they are not (at least, not safely). And tying it to many police being veterans (which, BTW, is also not the case around here), that means nothing. The U.S. military replaced the M1911A1 with the Beretta M9 in 1985. That was 35 years ago. There are no currently-serving police officers who were in the military when they might have been issued a 1911 (with the possible exception of a very small number of special forces type "operators"). As an NRA handgun instructor, I've had veterans in some of my classes, since they need the class to get a carry permit in this state. Some of those veterans were among the worst boneheads in my classes.
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Old February 21, 2020, 02:27 PM   #69
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In my state it is neither a legal obligation to tell or to answer a question. I will let them do their job without any answers, every time.
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Old February 21, 2020, 03:06 PM   #70
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I think you did the right thing by affirming you had it--based on being asked which means they likely knew you had it. If you are not required to reveal that even if asked, I get why someone might not answer anyway if not legally required; you might not necessarily know that a multiple homicide just happened down the street using the same kind of gun you just happen to be carrying. If you are absolutely sure you have no duty to inform--and aren't asked, then I wouldn't volunteer the info, nice guy or otherwise. "Anything you say can and may be used against you" may not necessarily be trumped being courteous. Keep in mind I have immense respect for and have LEO friends, but they might not be the ones who pulled me over. I'm no legal expert, but that's what I would do. Anything that has to do with firearms can rapidly snowball into a bad scenario, even if ultimately you were "right." Just my opinion.
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Old February 24, 2020, 06:53 PM   #71
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For 25 years, in Toronto Ontario. Canada. I trained Security/Police/Military as they required my Diploma as proof of expertise.
Most young people in Canada had been to farms where firearms were present.
The Army young people required written proof of some kind to apply for the advanced military units. Security required the same Diploma to apply for a Carry permit, for work. First revolvers, then later Glocks.
The ability to issue these Diplomas came from the OPP Firearms unit. Who was the last word in this. Two of these veterans came on a course, to monitor me teach? With suits, and writing pads? I said, "no way you have to shoot, you are armed are you not?"
Their reply they only had 18 rounds of .38 ammo.
My answer put your duty ammo in your coat pockets, load up with my reloads
and holster a loaded revolver (S&W 2 and a half inch snubnosed revolvers,
plus two speedloaders also) I had only 6 students turn up, 8 was the size of each class. Just 4 on the line at once, bunker type range.
I supplied all the equipment. The officers fired 6" low, 4" left at 7M.
I had a 38 Spl model 10, that spit lead, it would have cost $500. to send it to the S&W plant to fix it. I just threw the cylinder and yoke away, and kept it for teaching the trigger manipulation, and aiming. So I thought they were looking over the sights, so separately had them aim at 7M, at the Silhouette target, look at their master eye, from the front, liftback sight up, put front sight in the slot, then use the trigger to control the movement of the revolver. Done. Left with a 4-inch group, all double action, 7M-15M-6FT 2 headshots while walking forward. 20 rounds total. The Staff Sgt. said they raved about all the new ideas.

The absolutely worst students! Ex English Police Officers who had relocated, to Canada (Immigrated) almost 100% were petrified of these handguns.
You would have thought they were hand Grenades.

Last edited by Brit; February 24, 2020 at 06:58 PM.
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Old February 25, 2020, 03:02 PM   #72
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I am in FL which is a non-required tell state. But as a courtesy I always inform the officer. Have never had a bad reaction from the officer when I did and never was asked to relinquish my gun until the stop was concluded.
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Old February 26, 2020, 12:33 PM   #73
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Check out the requirement to inform the officer on handgunlaw.us the go to authority.

If I am stopped by LE I will always inform the officer if I am or am not armed when I hand them my drivers license and CCW license. If I am armed I will tell them where the firearm is, i.e. left hip.

One of the most dangerous things for a LEO on a traffic stop is walking up to the driver's window as the LEO doesn't have any idea what he/she is walking into.

Telling the officer is considered a courtesy which they appreciate and sometimes they will tell you that.

Were you "at fault" - I would say no - just uninformed.
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Old February 27, 2020, 06:26 AM   #74
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Being armed means you are aware that bad things happen, being armed is a conscious thought that the outcome of a possible criminal attack, can be altered by your mindset, every day.
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Old February 27, 2020, 07:55 AM   #75
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confess?

Adhere to the law in your state. If you are demanded to hand over your CCW without being given a practicable reason have your attorney come to the scene.

Many people assume LEOs have a greater knowledge of guns.....they absolutely do not. They do know their duty weapon without doubt.
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