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Old January 19, 2020, 04:18 PM   #251
J.G. Terry
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Wildcards

Wildcards: Looks like one of wild cards is what the shooters shows up with. We had a nearby mass shooting where six people were killed with a black rifle. Local gang shooters are showing up with black rifles more often from media reports.

There are local churches here that feed the homeless. Waves of seedy looking characters show up at meal time.
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Old January 19, 2020, 04:57 PM   #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa
You're changing the bar on your arguments.
With respect, both you and Aguila Blanca are nit picking a bit about shooting them in the back of the head. The key elements to my suggestion is out of sight and hand on the gun. White did not do that and as I posted before there was over 3 seconds from the time BG drew gun fully then fired. Hand on gun and White would have dropped him. When I looked at the film White seems in a laid back posture. Just watching isn't enough. Hand on gun and ready. White was not that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa
I see a strong tendency in your arguments to treat all situations with "squirrelly" church attenders as if they will be identical to this one
No, I'm dealing with this scenario. Otherwise, we could go all over the place. FWIW I too am noticing a tendency in your arguments that churchs are constantly having squirrels in their midst at every service and I don't think that's the case.

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Originally Posted by JohnKSa
I see nothing at all in the video to indicate that the shooter was ever aware of Wilson.
Wilson said so in his interview. He said the shot was full face on and the guy was looking at him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa
People turn around. As in this case.
However, he wasn't looking at White till he stood and fumbled about. Hand on gun sitting about a 1 second draw and it's good night. White would be here today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa
I hope you will think more about the idea that it's reasonable, or even feasible, to follow someone around a church with your hand on a gun continually ready to draw.
I have and that's why it must be done for effective security. You may choose not to and that is your choice but I and those who I work with will do otherwise. I find your approach too passive I'm afraid.
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Old January 19, 2020, 04:59 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by J.G. Terry
There are local churches here that feed the homeless. Waves of seedy looking characters show up at meal time.
Without LOTS of armed security you wouldn't find me...well not there. You know J.G. some places you just shouldn't go.
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Old January 19, 2020, 05:28 PM   #254
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Quote:
The key elements to my suggestion is out of sight and hand on the gun.
Again, that's not the quote I was responding to. I was responding to your quote that White didn't have SA and was in a bad position. The fact is that neither of those was true. According to Wilson, the whole team was aware of the guy and White was where he was specifically because of where the weirdo was.

Then you responded that he was too laid back and didn't have his gun readily accessible. I pointed out that was not what I responded to and then agreed with the latter, and said that I don't believe there's enough information to assess the former.

Now you're saying that you meant to say that he should have stayed out of sight (which he was until the shooter turned) and had his hand on his gun. Well, that's also not the same thing as not having enough SA or being in a bad position. As far as your assertion that he needed to have his hand on his gun already, I don't see it. Someone, even a weirdo with a fake beard, standing up in church isn't sufficient justification (except in hindsight once you know he turned out to be a shooter) to start grabbing guns.

I'm just saying that when I respond to something, if you take my response and make it seem that it was meant to apply to something other than what I responded to, that 1) it is not constructive and 2) I'm going to point it out to try to insure that my comments are not misconstrued to apply to something other than to what I intended them to apply.
Quote:
FWIW I too am noticing a tendency in your arguments that churchs are constantly having squirrels in their midst at every service and I don't think that's the case.
I didn't say that they are "constantly in their midst", but there are certainly enough of them (at least in churches other than the ones you attend) that you can't follow them around with a hand on a gun even if that were acceptable behavior (which it is not).
Quote:
However, he wasn't looking at White till he stood and fumbled about.
Well, he was certainly looking at White because the usher and White were both directly in front of him. He may not have been focused on White until White started moving, but that's a different thing.
Quote:
Wilson said so in his interview. He said the shot was full face on and the guy was looking at him.
Dunno what to say about that. The guy's face was obviously turned toward Wilson at some point as he pivoted from the back of the church to face the front, and his eyes may have scanned Wilson at that point, but he was clearly heading to the front of the church when he was shot (even had his gun pointing towards the front of the church) and therefore was not focused on Wilson.

If you have a link to that interview, I'd be interested in watching/reading it. I've seen a couple by him but must have missed that one.

I do agree (and have said so a number of times) that White should have been able to get to his gun faster.
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Old January 19, 2020, 06:13 PM   #255
Ruark
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Not to mention the difficulty of convincing an urban liberal jury that you were in immediate danger of death or serious injury from someone 75+ feet away. Of course, the church shooting was an exception, and a very rare one at that. It wasn't 75 feet, either, probably not even half that.
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Old January 19, 2020, 06:45 PM   #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa
Again, that's not the quote I was responding to.
Yeah, I'm responding to you and others so my answers are put together.

So, then I will post this and then really John we'll just have agree to disagree however you may have the last word if it pleases you. If you want to discuss other aspects fine but I'm repeating myself after this.

The gentleman who came into that church was squirrelly to the nth degree and therefore deserved attention greater than just watching him. Mr. White was in a bad position because he did not have ready access to his gun. The body language I observed showed a laid back posture and even when he stood up he did not seem to be on edge and this was even after the guy had drawn his shotgun.

The lesson I learn from this encounter is that when I in my church encounter a squirrel (And none have ever come in to date) I will position myself out of their LOS (as Mr. White did) and put my hand on my gun (which Mr White didn't do) and not let the squirrel know they are being watched until that squirrel is gone. If they produce a firearm I will react as needed. I won't say where or how I might engage so we don't get hung up on whether the shot is behind him or in front.

You do not think that is "feasible"or acceptable. I disagree and think your method to be too passive that could cost lives.

Since Mr. White did not have his gun ready he was "out of position" in my vernacular. Just being behind the BG is not enough.

If I didn't cover yours and Aguila Blanca's comments then I can address them as trying to address multiple posts may get confusing so I put my answers together.
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Old January 20, 2020, 04:28 AM   #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tennessee Gentleman
Since Mr. White did not have his gun ready he was "out of position" in my vernacular. Just being behind the BG is not enough.
There you go, moving the goal posts again.

I certainly didn't interpret "being in position" to include having a hand on a gun. "Position" means location. Mr. White was in the right position -- until the shooter turned around, and which point that became the wrong position because it was no longer behind the shooter.
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Old January 20, 2020, 10:00 AM   #258
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I think you guys are asking the wrong questions. None of this hinged on whether or not someone had their hand on their gun. I don't think that aspect would have made any difference. There are plenty of things which may have changed the outcome but "hand on gun" aint one of them. At least not in my opinion.

It would be really hard for me to comment further without being insensitive to those involved and those who have suffered, so I will refrain from a level of specificity that points negatively toward any specific person. Perhaps a year from now, we may revisit this subject as part of a different thread.

Until then, I guess I will simply stand-by until you guys get past the chapter involving this whole "hand on the gun" thing.
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Old January 20, 2020, 11:55 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by FireForged
I guess I will simply stand-by until you guys get past the chapter involving this whole "hand on the gun" thing.
As I posted earlier I've made my point and will not comment further on it.

I do think sometimes it's hard to communicate to multiple folks in these forums (or email). Face to face or phone call is better but then that's not possible so there it is. I used to have a rule that if my emails were longer than five lines I called. Dang this modern world!
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Old January 21, 2020, 01:00 AM   #260
JohnKSa
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Wilson said so in his interview. He said the shot was full face on and the guy was looking at him.
Found an interview with both Willeford and Wilson.

Wilson does state that the shooter noticed him, but only after he had turned toward the front of the church. Wilson believes that the shooter caught his motion out of the corner of his eye and started to look back towards him just as Wilson took the shot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4gTT9YkXys
"He turned and shot Richard first, turned and immediately shot Tony second and then started going towards the front. <...> He evidently caught a little bit of my motion out of the corner of his eye because he partially turned back to me and that's when I took my shot."
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Old January 23, 2020, 10:02 PM   #261
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That's it. This topic seems to have attracted all the worthwhile comments there are to be had.

Closed.
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