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Old February 20, 2020, 09:28 PM   #76
shurshot
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Jeff22: It always fascinates me when people who are not in law enforcement and have no idea what they are talking about choose to share their ignorance.

I second that. Well stated Jeff!
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Old February 21, 2020, 11:22 PM   #77
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I second that. Well stated Jeff!
Shurshot,

If your comment was in directedto me, you should know I'm a retired police officer. I also worked for several years as a sworn peace officer for the Arizona State Judiciary.

So what do you two think about the benefits of improving law enforcement officer's overall relationship with the citizens in their communities? Does that make sense to you two? Do you two think the militarization of civilian law enforcement helps to achieve that goal?

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Old February 22, 2020, 10:54 AM   #78
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Zoo, it wasn't directed specifically at you. But since you appear to take exception to our comments / opinions, I'll share my perspective a bit more in depth.

There is a strong atmosphere of anti LEO sentiment across the entire nation right now, more so than in past years. Some officers are even leary of doing their job as they are unsure if their own Administrators will back them up if "it" hits the fan. There are some VERY vocal people in the media / online who have no idea what they are talking about, criticizing Police every chance they get, deserved or not. A little whiff of that anti LEO sentiment blows into TFL on occasion, which irritates some of us, hence the previous comments.

It's been said that a few bad apples spoil the barrel. I agree with that. It's a fact that a few bad LEO's deserve incarceration for their criminal behavior. Lock them up, absolutely! The corrupt cops make us all look bad. Hold LEO's to a higher standard, I agree. The Constitutional rights of law abiding Americans should be of more importance than a corrupt individual on a power trip. Unfortunately some forget their oath and what our flag truly represents when their egos and prejudice take charge. This is precisely why we have internal affairs divisions, Attorney generals and Federal Government, to oversee and investigate individuals and Agencies. Honest Officers have nothing to fear. We are a nation of laws, this is exactly how it should be.

But when the left wing media, ANTIFA extremists, politicians and the just plain ignorant start inferring that ALL law enforcement are jack booted thugs, bullies, etc. and inciting civil disobedience, calling for the disarmament of officers, defunding of Police Departments requests for equipment and training, demanding lax enforcement of the law by the Courts.... it is wrong. The law applies to ALL, but without enforcement, it is useless. And without respect for the law (and fair and just judicial enforcement), and respect for those who wear the badge to enforce the law, society WILL NOT fare well over time. For our system, a nation of Laws and not men, to work as it should, it requires teeth.

RESPECT is needed and necessary from both the public and LEO's. Respect, understanding and polite communication from both parties (LEO and civilians), will go along way towards making our society better. Bodycams keep everyone honest.

Expansion and implementation of training pertaining to mental health issues, cultural differences and conflict desculation are already at the top of the list for most Agencies. More training, education and respect for community members is always a good thing. Most of us live in the same communitys we serve. We all seek peace and tranquility.

As far as the military type equipment, training and appearance of agency's across the US, you take issue with that, even if it saves fellow officers lives? Seriously???? You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I would think as a retired LEO and taxpayer you would want a civil nation controlled by the RULE OF LAW, and not by rioters, arsonists, looters and armed thugs / extremists who are often better armed than the local police who are hired to enforce the law? You don't think Officers deserve or need military grade equipment & training to deal with vicious and heavily armed MS-13 gang members, various Mexican drug Cartels, "Baltimore" type riots where people are burning down their own neighborhoods, white supremacist / prison gangs, Outlaw biker gangs involved in the narcotics and arms trade, etc.??
LEO live's don't matter? If you were in Law enforcement,
You MUST have seen Intel bulletins and be aware of what was / is going on? Nightly news perhaps? How long ago did you retire??

"So what do you two think about the benefits of improving law enforcement officer's overall relationship with the citizens in their communities? Does that make sense to you two? Do you two think the militarization of civilian law enforcement helps to achieve that goal?" (Zoo)

I'm all for the improvement of relationships between officers and community's... trust me, but NOT at the risk of Officer safety. If that means using military equipment and training to keep the peace and enforce Law & Order, I'm ALL FOR IT.

I certainly wouldn't want to live in a corrupted nation where the Police, Courts, government and Military were ALL afraid of, outgunned, and controlled by Drug Cartels, like in Mexico. [B][

Ever hear of "plata o plomo" ("Silver or lead")? Not much of a choice, is it? :[/I]
[/

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Old February 22, 2020, 02:41 PM   #79
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Not every department is dealing with MS13. That’s a reality. Many departments do face significant challenges, but the notion that most of them are outgunned is, IMO, overstated these days. You can certainly take significant threats as examples and suggest that every department is dealing with that. I’m not sure that’s particularly honest. As for wanting the rule of law, I don’t think anyone here has suggested they don’t want the rule of law. Wanting the rule of law while recognizing that there need to be some limitations and oversight on the people that enforce that law is not, to me, mutually exclusive. Obviously we can disagree on what is too much or not enough when it comes to limitations and oversight.


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Old February 22, 2020, 02:45 PM   #80
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Not honest? . Ok, I guess this link is exaggerated.
Believe what you want. The threat IS spreading, whether you keep your head stuck in the tunnel or not.

https://cis.org/Report/MS13-Resurgen...SAAEgIgpPD_BwE


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Old February 22, 2020, 02:46 PM   #81
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That’s great, I’m not denying the existence of MS13. No where did I. Do I think it’s the biggest issue facing every department? No. I’m not basing that on my own opinion. I’m basing that on talking with officers from my regional area that have attended training events.

I’ve read my share of white papers. They’re often deep dives by well meaning people into a nuanced issue. They’re good sources of information. There are a ton of white papers out there, most of them written from the perspective that the issue in question is very serious. This is both because the people writing the paper believe that and because the people writing the paper rely on funding. Papers help get across points to convince others of the need for funding. I have yet to read a white paper where the author stated, “This is important, but there are probably more important issues.”

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Old February 22, 2020, 02:55 PM   #82
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Real pretty map on the link. Valid evidence based info too. I don't think I'm exaggerating anything Tunnelrat, but we all have our own perspective. Perhaps those officers you "talked to that attended a training", were not paying attention, or the training wasn't very good. Doesn't sound like the same training I have attended!
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Old February 22, 2020, 02:57 PM   #83
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You’re welcome to attack me or them, though I’m not sure what you gain by doing so. There’s a wide range of positions between MS13 doesn’t exist and MS13 is a critical concern for all departments across the country. I feel like you’re building a straw man for no reason.


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Old February 22, 2020, 02:59 PM   #84
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Not an attack. Just an observation. Debate is positive. We are good.

Straw men don't kill people. MS13 does.

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Old February 22, 2020, 03:07 PM   #85
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I don’t remember denying MS13 kills people. Seriously, look up the definition of straw man arguments.


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Old February 22, 2020, 03:25 PM   #86
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I'm aware of the definition, I was trying to interject some humor into a serious discussion. No disrespect intended Tunnel. I should have added another smiley face to indicate it was a tounge in cheek closing comment. I'll fix it. I was just off on a rant on a topic I feel strongly about..

That link, the info, stats, the brutal murders... it's ALL based on evidence and facts. It's not just an eggagerated "white paper". Its worth reading, whether you chose to believe it or not.
Or this link... https://www.ice.gov/features/gangs
Still think the threat is an exaggeration?

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Old February 22, 2020, 07:59 PM   #87
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I’m not sure why you put white paper in quotes. There’s nothing pejorative about the term white paper, and what you linked is, as best as I can tell, a text book definition of a white paper. I never said it wasn’t based in facts and evidence. You keep saying you know what a straw man argument is, but yet you keep making them by attributing to me arguments I’m not making. I can’t tell if it’s intentional or out of a misinterpretation of what I’ve said.

With respect to the OP, while MS13 does relate to the need for training of law enforcement I think we’re veering off course from what was the original topic. I’ve seen a lot of threads in this forum get locked for going off topic, and I’m going to bow out of this one as I think updated input to this thread over time is something worth having.

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Old February 24, 2020, 09:52 AM   #88
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There is a strong atmosphere of anti LEO sentiment across the entire nation right now, more so than in past years. Some officers are even leary of doing their job as they are unsure if their own Administrators will back them up if "it" hits the fan. There are some VERY vocal people in the media / online who have no idea what they are talking about, criticizing Police every chance they get, deserved or not. A little whiff of that anti LEO sentiment blows into TFL on occasion, which irritates some of us, hence the previous comments.
I'd agree wholeheartedly on this point. And add that the lack of support seem to come predominantly from the political left...YMMv...but it's a point to remember in November. Rod
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Old February 25, 2020, 10:35 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by rodfac View Post
I'd agree wholeheartedly on this point. And add that the lack of support seem to come predominantly from the political left...YMMv...but it's a point to remember in November. Rod
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Old February 28, 2020, 10:37 PM   #90
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I have been retired since 2006 but I do keep in touch regularly.When I retired I was the lead firearms instructor. Officers could sign in at the range (shared with the local S.O.) and get practice ammo. Monthly I would check the list and see the same names, SWAT guys and a few "gun guys", maybe 40 of our 135 man department. Most officers showed up for the quarterly quals and squeaked buy with the minimum score and many had to shoot twice to get that. Quarterly quals were a day & a night shoot, 50 rounds each, 5-25 yards. Shotgun quals were 1st &3rd quarter, rifle (for those that had them) were 2nd & 4th quarter. Most officers hated shotgun quals and it showed.

Since I retired, due to budget cuts, quals are now twice per year. So half the mandatory quals/practice and from what I've been told there is no improvement in the percentage who shoot on their own time.

When I started out in 1978 most officers were gun guys, at least on my department. The range was always busy with guys shooting their own ammo on there own time. Times change, we were Cops, it was our identity, our calling in, life not just a job. Seems now that it's just a job for most.
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Old February 29, 2020, 10:11 PM   #91
zoo
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Zoo, it wasn't directed specifically at you. But since you appear to take exception to our comments / opinions, I'll share my perspective a bit more in depth.
I wouldn’t say I “take exception” to you and Jeffrey’s comments but rather I’m suggesting end goals may be better achieved by taking into consideration other perspectives than those you seem to hold. You two fellows ARE interested in keeping officers and the communities they serve safe, right?

Quote:
There is a strong atmosphere of anti LEO sentiment across the entire nation right now, more so than in past years. Some officers are even leary of doing their job as they are unsure if their own Administrators will back them up if "it" hits the fan. There are some VERY vocal people in the media / online who have no idea what they are talking about, criticizing Police every chance they get, deserved or not. A little whiff of that anti LEO sentiment blows into TFL on occasion, which irritates some of us, hence the previous comments.
You've either led a sheltered life or you haven't been getting the memos. What you've described is not a new problem. And quite honestly from what I've observed it is no worse now than in decades past but maybe for the fifties… and even then it depended on where you lived. In all fairness, you should also know you seem to be coming across a little defensive on this topic. You getting a few too many “little whiffs”? Maybe I should wear a better deodorant or get a haircut.

Quote:
It's been said that a few bad apples spoil the barrel. I agree with that. It's a fact that a few bad LEO's deserve incarceration for their criminal behavior. Lock them up, absolutely! The corrupt cops make us all look bad. Hold LEO's to a higher standard, I agree. The Constitutional rights of law abiding Americans should be of more importance than a corrupt individual on a power trip. Unfortunately some forget their oath and what our flag truly represents when their egos and prejudice take charge. This is precisely why we have internal affairs divisions, Attorney generals and Federal Government, to oversee and investigate individuals and Agencies. Honest Officers have nothing to fear. We are a nation of laws, this is exactly how it should be.
Nice speech. For the most part I agree.

Quote:
But when the left wing media, ANTIFA extremists, politicians and the just plain ignorant start inferring that ALL law enforcement are jack booted thugs, bullies, etc. and inciting civil disobedience, calling for the disarmament of officers, defunding of Police Departments requests for equipment and training, demanding lax enforcement of the law by the Courts.... it is wrong. The law applies to ALL, but without enforcement, it is useless. And without respect for the law (and fair and just judicial enforcement), and respect for those who wear the badge to enforce the law, society WILL NOT fare well over time. For our system, a nation of Laws and not men, to work as it should, it requires teeth.
Even worse when many from the right or independents also start voicing the same perspectives.

Quote:
As far as the military type equipment, training and appearance of agency's across the US, you take issue with that, even if it saves fellow officers lives? Seriously????
Not at all. I only take issue with it when it starts causing more lives (both civilian and law enforcement) to be lost and serves to increase hostilities and dysfunction between communities and governmental authorities at the local, state, and federal levels.

Quote:
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I would think as a retired LEO and taxpayer you would want a civil nation controlled by the RULE OF LAW, and not by rioters, arsonists, looters and armed thugs / extremists who are often better armed than the local police who are hired to enforce the law?
Where did I leave you the impression I would like to live among death and chaos?

Come on, stop being silly.

Quote:
You don't think Officers deserve or need military grade equipment & training to deal with vicious and heavily armed MS-13 gang members, various Mexican drug Cartels, "Baltimore" type riots where people are burning down their own neighborhoods, white supremacist / prison gangs, Outlaw biker gangs involved in the narcotics and arms trade, etc.??
LEO live's don't matter? If you were in Law enforcement,
You MUST have seen Intel bulletins and be aware of what was / is going on? Nightly news perhaps? How long ago did you retire??
Where did I imply that or anything of the nature? “When you absolutely, positively, got to kill every <redacted> in the room; accept no substitutes” …or at least that is how I look at it.

I was a peace officer in the seventies and eighties then later got back into the line of work in the 2000’s. Yes, I got the “Intel Bulletins” and received the “nightly news” sometimes even in the form of hot lead being sent my way. How about you?

Quote:
I'm all for the improvement of relationships between officers and community's... trust me, but NOT at the risk of Officer safety. If that means using military equipment and training to keep the peace and enforce Law & Order, I'm ALL FOR IT.
How about if it also means something a little more than using “military equipment and training” more emphasis on “civilian”? The "us vs. them" mentality and the thin skin you've exhibited towards alternative yet valid criticisms of law enforcement fails to help move the ball towards the goal posts assuming we've got the same goal posts; safety and security for all.

Last edited by JohnKSa; February 29, 2020 at 10:27 PM. Reason: .
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Old February 29, 2020, 11:22 PM   #92
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"The "us vs. them" mentality and the thin skin you've exhibited towards alternative yet valid criticisms of law enforcement"

???? It appears you didn't read my entire post? Did you comment "nice speach", without reading it in its entirety? Or was that sarcasm?

Last edited by shurshot; March 1, 2020 at 05:22 AM.
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