lead and gas checks help

Taxidermist · June 30, 2007, 09:39 PM

I have always loaded jacketed bullets so I'm not familiar with lead bullets. I bought some swc 158 gr. bullets. Do I need to put those gas checks on them? I will be loading them for 38 special. Do they pop on or do I need a special tool? For powder I only have red dot and 2400. Any suggestions for a load?

Thanks
John

crowbeaner · June 30, 2007, 10:08 PM

Hey Taxidermist greetings from lake effect territory. If you don't go too far toward maximum with the faster burning powder, you should be OK. Most available bulk cast bullets are fairly hard from the alloys the caster employs. Unless the bullet is cut for a gascheck, you'll be farther ahead money and aggravation wise to load them as is. Slower burning powders in the 357 may work OK depending on the gun and bullet hardness, you will have to try a few to see. As long as the lube is sufficient, leading may not even be an issue, but usually you have to do some scrubbing. Hope this helps.CB

Taxidermist · June 30, 2007, 10:18 PM

Thanks, The bullets do seem to have the slightest taper on the bottom. I forgot the company name but they come lubed in a bulk box of 500. Now I'll start searching for a load to try with the red dot or 2400 powder I have. Thanks again from St. Lawrence County.

John

crowbeaner · June 30, 2007, 10:24 PM

No charge, neighbor! I was born and raised in SL county. Still have relatives there.

Slamfire · July 1, 2007, 01:48 PM

Never needed a gas check on any pistol bullet. I have probably shot close to a 100,000 of them.

Ah, but cast rifle bullets, totally different matter. I cast some 30 caliber ones and because everyone was out of gas checks, I wanted to find out what would happen. The velocity of my 205 grain Lyman bullets were about 1700 fps out of a 30-06, and would not group on a six by six foot target at 100 yards. Something was happening.

When I got the gas checks I was getting less than 3 inch groups at the same distance. Happy, happy, joy, joy.

steveno · July 1, 2007, 03:21 PM

the gas check requires an actual groove at the base of the bullet. the taper will not work with a gas check

Taxidermist · July 1, 2007, 08:00 PM

Ok thanks. I guess that means I don't need them. That's a relief. Thanks again fella's.

John

LAH · July 2, 2007, 01:54 PM

The gas check bullet has a base that's smaller than the rear driving band. The reduction in size isn't a taper but a 90 degree turn toward the axis of the bullet with another 90 degree turn toward the base of the bullet. The gas check being a cup simply snaps to the base and the bullet & gas check is normally passed through a sizing die........Creeker

crowbeaner · July 2, 2007, 06:22 PM

I just cast about 500 300 gr. .45 bullets for a friend that has a souped up Ruger. I used a brand spanking new Saeco 4 holer. What an absolutely superb piece of engineering! No break in necessary and once up to temp, every bullet was perfect! Wish I had more money to work with I'd buy one of every caliber I could think of. Happyhappyjoyjoy.

LAH · July 2, 2007, 06:45 PM

Saeco normally turns out great moulds. Have a couple myself.

XD-Guy · July 2, 2007, 07:27 PM

For Red Dot I have start 2.9 and max 3.1 with an oal of 1.420

Taxidermist · July 2, 2007, 08:34 PM

XDD-Guy...... Thanks, I'll give that load a try.

John

crowbeaner · July 2, 2007, 08:52 PM

Taxidermist- I hesitate to give a load rec. on 2400 because you said the ammo is for a .38. I could give you a couple, but they are in the .38+P++ category and I don't know what type of gun and condition you are working with. If you have access to Unique powder, try 4.5 to5.0 max. 3.1 max sounds about right for Red Dot.CB

Taxidermist · July 2, 2007, 09:12 PM

Ok CB, I only have red dot and 2400 right now and a no play money this week. I bought an old 22 short revolver and ordered a new Hi-Point .380 so I'm limited on powder for a few weeks anyway. I can only hide a few bucks at a time without the old woman finding it. LOL...
My gun I'm loading for is a S&W Model 15-3 snub nose. I will be using SWC 158gr. and either red dot or 2400. Actually I have been weighing the bullets on my Lyman scales and so far none of the bullets have weighed the same. I'm thinking about tossing the damn things out and just buying some jhp instead. I know these lead bullets aren't perfect but I'm getting weights from 155 gr to 157 gr. and even a couple that weighed 152gr. Seems like they should be closer than that for a company to sell them as 158gr.

John

crowbeaner · July 2, 2007, 09:28 PM

You have to realize that the bullets were probably cast by a machine and there were probably 6 to 8 sets of moulds at work on the circle. Actually the weights aren't too bad, a little more variation than I would like, but I cast my own and I am the hardest inspector I know. If it ain't perfect back in the pot it goes! I'd load a few just for funsys, and wait for the moolah to even itself out. The Red DOt will work OK, so try a few. Trim your cases to make sure they all get the same crimp and all should be fine. I used to load 158s over 11.0 of 2400 but they wre for a model 19 357. With the 38 it should be around 9.0 maybe 10.0 max. I don't have my notes here to check.CB

Taxidermist · July 2, 2007, 09:46 PM

I'll try some of them and see how they do. I think I'll go with the red dot. I'll get some Unique as soon as I can. I have always used jacketed bullets but thought I'd start saving money and switch to lead.

John

crowbeaner · July 2, 2007, 10:01 PM

A good lead load may really surprise you with it's accuracy. You can really tailor your load if you cast, because you can vary the hardness, diameter, crimp, seating depth, neck tension etc. I used to load 173 gr. Lyman 358429s over 3.5 of Bullseye for the spouse's old 4 screw S&W M+P. I could make a broken broom handle nothing but slivers at 15 feet with it, and shame on the red treerat that came within range. CB

Taxidermist · July 2, 2007, 10:20 PM

I shot a woodchuck in the back yard a couple days ago with my contender 35 rem. That was fun and it saved the rest of my cucumber plants.
John

crowbeaner · July 3, 2007, 08:51 PM

Gotta love that .35. I had a Marlin 336 in that caliber; I loved it. Sure hated to let it go but money got tight and I had a guy that gave me what I paid for it so down the road it went. I still have a couple hundred rounds of ammo for it. Maybe I can find someone to take it off my hands one of these days. If there is anything else I can help you out with give me a looksee.CB

June 30, 2007, 09:39 PM	#1
Taxidermist Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2007 Location: New York Posts: 175	lead and gas checks help I have always loaded jacketed bullets so I'm not familiar with lead bullets. I bought some swc 158 gr. bullets. Do I need to put those gas checks on them? I will be loading them for 38 special. Do they pop on or do I need a special tool? For powder I only have red dot and 2400. Any suggestions for a load? Thanks John __________________ Northern New York

June 30, 2007, 10:18 PM	#3
Taxidermist Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2007 Location: New York Posts: 175	Thanks, The bullets do seem to have the slightest taper on the bottom. I forgot the company name but they come lubed in a bulk box of 500. Now I'll start searching for a load to try with the red dot or 2400 powder I have. Thanks again from St. Lawrence County. John __________________ Northern New York

July 1, 2007, 08:00 PM	#7
Taxidermist Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2007 Location: New York Posts: 175	Ok thanks. I guess that means I don't need them. That's a relief. Thanks again fella's. John __________________ Northern New York

July 2, 2007, 08:34 PM	#12
Taxidermist Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2007 Location: New York Posts: 175	XDD-Guy...... Thanks, I'll give that load a try. John __________________ Northern New York

July 2, 2007, 09:12 PM	#14
Taxidermist Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2007 Location: New York Posts: 175	Ok CB, I only have red dot and 2400 right now and a no play money this week. I bought an old 22 short revolver and ordered a new Hi-Point .380 so I'm limited on powder for a few weeks anyway. I can only hide a few bucks at a time without the old woman finding it. LOL... My gun I'm loading for is a S&W Model 15-3 snub nose. I will be using SWC 158gr. and either red dot or 2400. Actually I have been weighing the bullets on my Lyman scales and so far none of the bullets have weighed the same. I'm thinking about tossing the damn things out and just buying some jhp instead. I know these lead bullets aren't perfect but I'm getting weights from 155 gr to 157 gr. and even a couple that weighed 152gr. Seems like they should be closer than that for a company to sell them as 158gr. John __________________ Northern New York Last edited by Taxidermist; July 2, 2007 at 09:13 PM. Reason: Typo on a name

June 30, 2007, 10:08 PM	#2
crowbeaner Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 1,943	Hey Taxidermist greetings from lake effect territory. If you don't go too far toward maximum with the faster burning powder, you should be OK. Most available bulk cast bullets are fairly hard from the alloys the caster employs. Unless the bullet is cut for a gascheck, you'll be farther ahead money and aggravation wise to load them as is. Slower burning powders in the 357 may work OK depending on the gun and bullet hardness, you will have to try a few to see. As long as the lube is sufficient, leading may not even be an issue, but usually you have to do some scrubbing. Hope this helps.CB

June 30, 2007, 10:24 PM	#4
crowbeaner Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 1,943	No charge, neighbor! I was born and raised in SL county. Still have relatives there.

July 1, 2007, 01:48 PM	#5
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	Never needed a gas check on any pistol bullet. I have probably shot close to a 100,000 of them. Ah, but cast rifle bullets, totally different matter. I cast some 30 caliber ones and because everyone was out of gas checks, I wanted to find out what would happen. The velocity of my 205 grain Lyman bullets were about 1700 fps out of a 30-06, and would not group on a six by six foot target at 100 yards. Something was happening. When I got the gas checks I was getting less than 3 inch groups at the same distance. Happy, happy, joy, joy.

July 1, 2007, 03:21 PM	#6
steveno Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Location: Minden , Nebraska Posts: 1,407	the gas check requires an actual groove at the base of the bullet. the taper will not work with a gas check

July 2, 2007, 01:54 PM	#8
LAH Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 2002 Location: In The Hardwoods Posts: 1,188	The gas check bullet has a base that's smaller than the rear driving band. The reduction in size isn't a taper but a 90 degree turn toward the axis of the bullet with another 90 degree turn toward the base of the bullet. The gas check being a cup simply snaps to the base and the bullet & gas check is normally passed through a sizing die........Creeker

July 2, 2007, 06:22 PM	#9
crowbeaner Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 1,943	I just cast about 500 300 gr. .45 bullets for a friend that has a souped up Ruger. I used a brand spanking new Saeco 4 holer. What an absolutely superb piece of engineering! No break in necessary and once up to temp, every bullet was perfect! Wish I had more money to work with I'd buy one of every caliber I could think of. Happyhappyjoyjoy.

July 2, 2007, 06:45 PM	#10
LAH Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 2002 Location: In The Hardwoods Posts: 1,188	Saeco normally turns out great moulds. Have a couple myself.

July 2, 2007, 07:27 PM	#11
XD-Guy Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2006 Posts: 102	For Red Dot I have start 2.9 and max 3.1 with an oal of 1.420

July 2, 2007, 08:52 PM	#13
crowbeaner Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 1,943	Taxidermist- I hesitate to give a load rec. on 2400 because you said the ammo is for a .38. I could give you a couple, but they are in the .38+P++ category and I don't know what type of gun and condition you are working with. If you have access to Unique powder, try 4.5 to5.0 max. 3.1 max sounds about right for Red Dot.CB

July 2, 2007, 09:28 PM	#15
crowbeaner Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 1,943	You have to realize that the bullets were probably cast by a machine and there were probably 6 to 8 sets of moulds at work on the circle. Actually the weights aren't too bad, a little more variation than I would like, but I cast my own and I am the hardest inspector I know. If it ain't perfect back in the pot it goes! I'd load a few just for funsys, and wait for the moolah to even itself out. The Red DOt will work OK, so try a few. Trim your cases to make sure they all get the same crimp and all should be fine. I used to load 158s over 11.0 of 2400 but they wre for a model 19 357. With the 38 it should be around 9.0 maybe 10.0 max. I don't have my notes here to check.CB

July 2, 2007, 09:46 PM	#16
Taxidermist Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2007 Location: New York Posts: 175	I'll try some of them and see how they do. I think I'll go with the red dot. I'll get some Unique as soon as I can. I have always used jacketed bullets but thought I'd start saving money and switch to lead. John __________________ Northern New York

July 2, 2007, 10:01 PM	#17
crowbeaner Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 1,943	A good lead load may really surprise you with it's accuracy. You can really tailor your load if you cast, because you can vary the hardness, diameter, crimp, seating depth, neck tension etc. I used to load 173 gr. Lyman 358429s over 3.5 of Bullseye for the spouse's old 4 screw S&W M+P. I could make a broken broom handle nothing but slivers at 15 feet with it, and shame on the red treerat that came within range. CB

July 2, 2007, 10:20 PM	#18
Taxidermist Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2007 Location: New York Posts: 175	I shot a woodchuck in the back yard a couple days ago with my contender 35 rem. That was fun and it saved the rest of my cucumber plants. John __________________ Northern New York

July 3, 2007, 08:51 PM	#19
crowbeaner Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 1,943	Gotta love that .35. I had a Marlin 336 in that caliber; I loved it. Sure hated to let it go but money got tight and I had a guy that gave me what I paid for it so down the road it went. I still have a couple hundred rounds of ammo for it. Maybe I can find someone to take it off my hands one of these days. If there is anything else I can help you out with give me a looksee.CB