Black Tallons

zeisloft · October 28, 2005, 09:15 AM

Tell me about the tallons, why they stopped production etc. I still have about 100 or so in .45 and another 75ish in .44. I loved them for hunting ammo and recieved several boxes for free from Winchester when they first came out about 15yrs ago. Wish I could get more. I have heard several reasons why they were pulled but many seemed sespect. Any input?

threefivesevenmag · October 28, 2005, 10:22 AM

They still make them. They are now dubbed "Winchester SXT." It's the same type of platform without the black coating on the bullet. I have read that they actually perform much better than black talons. Bullet technology is always changing and they just upgraded to the SXT and got rid of the media slayed talons.

stratus · October 28, 2005, 10:23 AM

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs2.htm

Scroll down a bit on that page and there's a section explaining the ballistics of the black talon. Following that, there's a bit of info on why they were denounced by the media, etc.

Rimrod · October 28, 2005, 01:48 PM

Actually they are not the same, although very close. When the SXT expands they do not have the Talons. They are rounded off and look more like a flower petal if they expand properly. Black Talons are now a LE only product under a different name although I have seen them on a local dealers shelf. The group responsible for their being pulled from the market was the American Medical Association, doctors complained of too many serious puncture wounds in their fingers while doing a finger probe looking for the bullet in shooting victims.

Avizpls · October 28, 2005, 02:22 PM

winchester RANGER SXT are the talon type arent they? The box is marked LEO, but they arent illegal for you and I. I have a LEO marked box of .40's that SUCK! I'll take Gold dots over them any day.

JR47 · October 28, 2005, 02:36 PM

The American Medical Association stated that doctors were worried about the "possibility" of punctured gloves. No examples were reported.

Usual liberal BS. The Black Talon wasn't a particularly effective round. The cutting phenomena was never proven to enhance it's efficiency. Ongoing research on bullet design rapidly overshadowed the cutting aspects. The Ranger SXT LEO round currently uses enhanced Black Talon technology.

Funny thing, though. The Starfire Hollowpoint was first shown in Peterson's Handguns as a full page picture. It showed the bullet as it penetrated ballistic gelatin, sending strands of cut gelatin out of the entrance! I guess that PMC, because they didn't advertise the "buzz saw" effect, escaped public scrutiny by the various "experts" that the simpleton anti-gun groups trotted out?

If you think that the Black Talon affair was funny, then check out the hilarious shenanigans from the politically-infected groups over the fabled "Rhino Ammo".

rapier144 · October 28, 2005, 03:15 PM

In the oct 2005 issue of GUNS and WEAPONS for law enforcement they have a article on the ranger SXT it looks from the picture to be the same as the black talons they seem to have the same sharp points as the black talons. A friend and i shot black talons into 1 gal water bags stacked end to end to see how far they would penetrate and what they looked like expanded they looked awesome but didnt travel as far as the hornaday +p did though

TheeBadOne · October 28, 2005, 03:21 PM

iirc Black Talon performance varied greatly between calibers. I think it may have been the 9mm load that didn't expand well (much).

TBO

rapier144 · October 28, 2005, 03:24 PM

I didnt mention we was using a usp 45

Bender711 · October 28, 2005, 03:29 PM

they were banned because they had a cool name tha sounded "evil" so the liberals hated them, even though they didnt wok much better than any other HP.

rapier144 · October 28, 2005, 03:39 PM

That sounds about right bender don't want to scare anyone

jaymag · November 1, 2005, 07:21 PM

Ranger talons sxt are the same as a black talon.Different name,but in fact a better round.They do not suck! avizpls don't know what he's talking about.They are used by many law agencies and you like them for hunting.

SJRTX · November 5, 2005, 04:10 AM

Ranger SXT (not the same as regular SXT) are the only ones with the "Talons", and they say "Law Enforcement Ammunition" on the box. Ive got some sitting right here. They are NOT the same as Black Talon, they are much better. BT's did not expand very well through heavy clothing and denim, while these do. Same basic concept, they just perform better. Honestly, If I were LE, I would use a bonded bullet instead (Ranger SXT is not bonded), because of the increased potential for shooting through barriers like glass. The Rangers tend to have core/jacket separations through glass.
Winchester sells a Ranger Bonded bullet now, that basically has 6 petals like a Gold Dot once expanded. Because of the way the Ranger SXT Talon is designed, they cant be bonded. Otherwise, the "Talons" wouldnt separate from the lead and curve outward. If you can find some at a gun show or online at a good price, go for it. But Gold Dot is more available, performs about the same in gel, and works better through barriers.

DonR101395 · November 5, 2005, 12:12 PM

Try ammolab.com if you want some good info on ammo performance.

SJRTX · November 5, 2005, 06:20 PM

I think ammolab.com is down. Not sure for how long, but its already been down for a little while.

Tripplethreat · November 8, 2005, 03:28 PM

Uhh,never mind.Sorry 'bout that.

October 28, 2005, 09:15 AM	#1
zeisloft Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 2005 Location: Amarillo TX Posts: 419	Black Tallons Tell me about the tallons, why they stopped production etc. I still have about 100 or so in .45 and another 75ish in .44. I loved them for hunting ammo and recieved several boxes for free from Winchester when they first came out about 15yrs ago. Wish I could get more. I have heard several reasons why they were pulled but many seemed sespect. Any input? __________________ A scalpel can be just as effective as a broadsword Obviously, Occam was not a reloader

October 28, 2005, 03:15 PM	#7
rapier144 Senior Member Join Date: October 2, 2005 Location: tennessee Posts: 686	In the oct 2005 issue of GUNS and WEAPONS for law enforcement they have a article on the ranger SXT it looks from the picture to be the same as the black talons they seem to have the same sharp points as the black talons. A friend and i shot black talons into 1 gal water bags stacked end to end to see how far they would penetrate and what they looked like expanded they looked awesome but didnt travel as far as the hornaday +p did though __________________ Scan and Breathe Scan and Breathe Stupidity should hurt

October 28, 2005, 03:24 PM	#9
rapier144 Senior Member Join Date: October 2, 2005 Location: tennessee Posts: 686	I didnt mention we was using a usp 45 __________________ Scan and Breathe Scan and Breathe Stupidity should hurt

October 28, 2005, 03:29 PM	#10
Bender711 Senior Member Join Date: September 20, 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 340	they were banned because they had a cool name tha sounded "evil" so the liberals hated them, even though they didnt wok much better than any other HP. __________________ From a Mod "Seeing as how "butt Smurf" is not profanity in the usual sense and humorously creative, I'll leave this up for now"

October 28, 2005, 03:39 PM	#11
rapier144 Senior Member Join Date: October 2, 2005 Location: tennessee Posts: 686	That sounds about right bender don't want to scare anyone __________________ Scan and Breathe Scan and Breathe Stupidity should hurt

October 28, 2005, 10:22 AM	#2
threefivesevenmag Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 406	They still make them. They are now dubbed "Winchester SXT." It's the same type of platform without the black coating on the bullet. I have read that they actually perform much better than black talons. Bullet technology is always changing and they just upgraded to the SXT and got rid of the media slayed talons.

October 28, 2005, 10:23 AM	#3
stratus Senior Member Join Date: October 5, 2005 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 881	http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs2.htm Scroll down a bit on that page and there's a section explaining the ballistics of the black talon. Following that, there's a bit of info on why they were denounced by the media, etc.

October 28, 2005, 01:48 PM	#4
Rimrod Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2005 Location: Behind enemy lines Posts: 1,309	Actually they are not the same, although very close. When the SXT expands they do not have the Talons. They are rounded off and look more like a flower petal if they expand properly. Black Talons are now a LE only product under a different name although I have seen them on a local dealers shelf. The group responsible for their being pulled from the market was the American Medical Association, doctors complained of too many serious puncture wounds in their fingers while doing a finger probe looking for the bullet in shooting victims.

October 28, 2005, 02:22 PM	#5
Avizpls Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2004 Posts: 774	winchester RANGER SXT are the talon type arent they? The box is marked LEO, but they arent illegal for you and I. I have a LEO marked box of .40's that SUCK! I'll take Gold dots over them any day.

October 28, 2005, 02:36 PM	#6
JR47 Junior member Join Date: August 9, 2005 Location: North Georgia Posts: 2,228	The American Medical Association stated that doctors were worried about the "possibility" of punctured gloves. No examples were reported. Usual liberal BS. The Black Talon wasn't a particularly effective round. The cutting phenomena was never proven to enhance it's efficiency. Ongoing research on bullet design rapidly overshadowed the cutting aspects. The Ranger SXT LEO round currently uses enhanced Black Talon technology. Funny thing, though. The Starfire Hollowpoint was first shown in Peterson's Handguns as a full page picture. It showed the bullet as it penetrated ballistic gelatin, sending strands of cut gelatin out of the entrance! I guess that PMC, because they didn't advertise the "buzz saw" effect, escaped public scrutiny by the various "experts" that the simpleton anti-gun groups trotted out? If you think that the Black Talon affair was funny, then check out the hilarious shenanigans from the politically-infected groups over the fabled "Rhino Ammo".

October 28, 2005, 03:21 PM	#8
TheeBadOne Junior member Join Date: January 12, 2002 Location: USA Posts: 1,191	iirc Black Talon performance varied greatly between calibers. I think it may have been the 9mm load that didn't expand well (much). TBO

November 1, 2005, 07:21 PM	#12
jaymag Senior Member Join Date: October 4, 2005 Location: springfield,MA Posts: 239	Ranger talon Ranger talons sxt are the same as a black talon.Different name,but in fact a better round.They do not suck! avizpls don't know what he's talking about.They are used by many law agencies and you like them for hunting.

November 5, 2005, 04:10 AM	#13
SJRTX Junior Member Join Date: October 7, 2005 Location: NW Houston Posts: 11	Ranger SXT (not the same as regular SXT) are the only ones with the "Talons", and they say "Law Enforcement Ammunition" on the box. Ive got some sitting right here. They are NOT the same as Black Talon, they are much better. BT's did not expand very well through heavy clothing and denim, while these do. Same basic concept, they just perform better. Honestly, If I were LE, I would use a bonded bullet instead (Ranger SXT is not bonded), because of the increased potential for shooting through barriers like glass. The Rangers tend to have core/jacket separations through glass. Winchester sells a Ranger Bonded bullet now, that basically has 6 petals like a Gold Dot once expanded. Because of the way the Ranger SXT Talon is designed, they cant be bonded. Otherwise, the "Talons" wouldnt separate from the lead and curve outward. If you can find some at a gun show or online at a good price, go for it. But Gold Dot is more available, performs about the same in gel, and works better through barriers.

November 5, 2005, 12:12 PM	#14
DonR101395 Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2005 Location: NWFL Posts: 3,031	Try ammolab.com if you want some good info on ammo performance.

November 5, 2005, 06:20 PM	#15
SJRTX Junior Member Join Date: October 7, 2005 Location: NW Houston Posts: 11	I think ammolab.com is down. Not sure for how long, but its already been down for a little while.

November 8, 2005, 03:28 PM	#16
Tripplethreat Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2004 Posts: 124	Uhh,never mind.Sorry 'bout that. __________________ To be born free is an accident.To live free is a priviledge.To die free is a responsibility.-an anonymous POW at the Hanoi Hilton. Last edited by Tripplethreat; November 8, 2005 at 04:23 PM.