Buying A Case Trimmer

[Cheap 870]

I'm planning on buying a case trimmer soon.
I have my eyes on RCBS's manual trim pro with a 3-way cutter.
I would like people's opinion on this model.
All so I know I'll need a shell holder but will I need to get a pilot with the 3-way cutter?
I already have a set of mics will I need anything else to start trimming?
It's for 308 cases & I'll probably only be reloading 250 cases a year.

[rbursek]

If I was only doing 250 cases a year I would save some money and buy the Lee case trim system for the 308, a tad more work but less money.
Bob

[Unclenick]

Agree. And if you prefer a lathe style trimmer, the Wilson is about half the price and is, many feel, inherently more precise than the other lathe trimmers. It seems to be about the only one that can hold a thousandth of an inch. Bruno Shooters supply has the best prices on them. About $45 with case holder, IIRC. You need the trimmer and a .308 family case holder for the way it works. They make two .308 family holders; one for fired cases and one for resized cases. It's always most accurate to trim after sizing, so that's the one I'd get. You can optionally get their VLD chamfer cutter if you want to chamfer on the tool.

[m&p45acp10+1]

If it were me spending the money I would get the Lee it can be purchased for under $30. Use your cordless drill for power, or buy the Lee Zip Trim. You can trim the cases in a prety short amount of time with one. Use the left over funds for more supplies. Oh and the Lee chamfer/debur tool works well the the case still in the drill too. I did 400 .223 a few weeks ago. (which reminds me there are 3 more 3gal wash pails of .223 cases that need to be trimmed.)

[zfk55]

+1 for Uncle Nick's recommendation.

[thump_rrr]

I've been reloading for less than a year now and I have the Lee trimmers for all calibers that I load for.

I trimmed 460 .308 cases 2 weeks ago however something went wrong between case # 300 and case #460 because I now have 120 cases that vary in length between 2.004 and 1.994.

I was so used to getting perfect length cases that I neglected to keep checking till it was too late.

I've been looking at every lathe style trimmer out there and I've settled on the L.E. Wilson Stainless Steel version from Sinclair with their stand and micrometer.

Unfortunately it is currently out of stock so I'll have to wait

[JohnMoses]

For 250 cases, I would use the Lee. I admire Thump rr's record keeping, but the Lee system is SO simple, I don't see how it could fail. I admit I never checked. In fact, I never check at all. Whatever Dr Lee likes is good enough for me as far as oal is concerned.

[Pomeroy]

I used an RCBS for years but do not use it anymore since I started using the Lee system. I like the simplicity and the uniformity. I never have to readjust when going from one chambering to another. That would not be a problem, however, if you are only loading for .308. I use mine with a cordless drill.

[gman3]

+1 on the Lee/cordless drill setup.

[stu925]

For the volume of cases your prepping, you're probably better off with the Lee. If however you end up prepping a large volume of cases, the Trim Pro with the 3-way cutter is the way to go. I removed the handle from my trim pro and chuck the shaft into a Rigid 1/2" cordless drill and it makes short work of trimming .223 cases with that 3-way cutter. Single best reloading investment I've made in the last 5 years.

Stu

[Cheap 870]

I was looking at the Lee trimmer in Midways catalog & I can get a case gage & shell holder for $4.49. The cutter for $5.99. Or would you get a ball grip cutter?
Also what about the Zip Trim? The thing that worries me about the Zip Trim is it says it's made out of plastic...
With the lee case length gage in 308 is their any adjustment? Or dose it just trim to the recommended case length?

[jdscholer]

I improved on my Lee trimmers by purchasing the Lee Three Jaw Chuck. I think it's the same as what the Zip Trim uses. It works for all cases so you don't have to buy different shell holders for each one, and more importantly it is easier to tighten and loosen than the standard shell holder.

Put me down with the Lee fans. jd

[Unclenick]

Cheap 870,

The Lee case gauge limits the Lee cutter to trimming to the middle point of the case length specification, which is 2.05" for the .308 Winchester/7.62 NATO (the SAAMI spec calls it good from 1.995" to 2.015"). Note, to avoid confusion, that only Lee uses the term "case gauge" in this way. Every other maker's "case gauge" is either a measuring tool or a go/no-go case size checking tool.

If you are going to use the Zip Trim or turn the cutter by hand, I think you'll like having the wood ball saving the wear and tear on your fingers. If you have a drill press or or a variable speed drill you will turn the cutter with, then don't get the wood ball as it will just be in the way of chucking the cutter into the drill.

I, too, have wondered about the plastic construction of the zip trim, but everyone I've seen mention using one it says it works well. I've got motorized high volume trimming gear and the Wilson tool for calibers I use less often, so I've never bought a Zip Trim even though I do still have a Lee trimmer from before the Wilson. I'm tempted to try one for long straight wall rifle cases that my motorized trimmer can't trim (it requires a case shoulder), and for which the Wilson shell holders require an extra step to retain. So it might be a better mouse trap than setting up the drill press for those.

[GWS]

Unclenick, I'm not trying to start an argument, and I don't doubt you know more than I do about just about everything reloading, but I just can't see where the Wilson trimmer is that much better than a Forster or RCBS lathe trimmer that trims measuring from the case's base rather than its shoulder. Enlighten me. That thousandth you talk about depends a lot on the sizing operation on the press to put the shoulder in the exact same place every time. Do you think the sizing operation that locates the shoulder is holding a thousandth?

The point being that the Wilson may be able to hold a thousandth on the measurement from the shoulder to the case's opening, but shoulder setback may still be a variable, and since every gun I know about grabs a round by its base and supported by that, inserts that round in the chamber.... measuring from the base seems more sure to me.

My Forster trims plus or minus a thousandth, measured from the base. On such a lathe trimmer it goes without saying that it IS wise to check all your brass for bases that have gouges or nibs (usually caused by the Semi-auto's "delicate" extractors ) and fix any that don't lie flat. But other than that, I see no advantage to the shoulder measurement method, and I see one big disadvantage. Trying to speed up your most tiring bottleneck is pretty futile with a Wilson....even with a power adapter. I saw an attempt to speed it up with a drill....seemed he was trying to beat a clock or something and even so the brass was only trimmed...no three-way.Here.

Collet-held cases like my Forster are much easier to speed up IMO, and ease the bottleneck of trimming leisurely and without stress and without having to grip the brass tight during trimming like on a Giraud.....and I think its plenty accurate.

Lee's little trimmer is ok, but I can't tighten the collet enough to keep the case from slipping without pliers, and then pliers again to loosen it. Not for me....young guys with more muscle and callused fingers may like it fine.

Click the picture to see a video of my Forster, trimming .308,.....one-handed and quite leisurely....and the result is brass accurately trimmed, chamfered and deburred with one operation. BTW the trimmer shaft is raised and lowered by foot pedals hooked to cable, a pulley, using my feet to raise it (while sitting), gravity using a weight lowers it.....just little simple weekend project. Any Forster or RCBS owner could duplicate it.

[Cheap 870]

Well I decided to go with the Lee Zip Trim. Mostly because of the price but also I watched this video on Lee's web page. http://leeprecision.com/xcart/Help-Videos.html
I hope it works as easy & good as the video.
I also ordered the uni-3 jaw chuck & the ball grip cutter.
Some other stuff on my order is Lyman's VLD tool,possum hollow's flash hole tool & I threw a Lee chamfer/deburrer tool.
I want too thank everyone for helping to make my mind up.

Oh yea I all so ordered a box of Oregon Trail 360gr. cast 45cal. bullets.
Just in case I run into a grizzy bear or a thick skulled intruder here in Ohio.

[Wayne_E]

GWS, the Wilson does measure from the base. The case holder just grips the taper of the body of the case. The case length is adjusted with the stop screw that is in contact with the case head. You can download the instruction manual from the Wilson site and see the illustrations more clearly.

[TXGunNut]

I like the Lee system, abandoned the RCBS lathe years ago. I recently "upgraded" to the Zip Trim from a cordless drill or even a drill press, it works very well for my <1000 rifle rounds per year, on average. If I want it a bit shorter I simply buy an extra gage and shorten it with a few file strokes. Yes, it looks cheap but it works, like most of Lee's stuff.
And GWS, even after 30 years of loading more rounds than my pickup can safely carry I'd like to say something about our Uncle Nick: when he talks, I listen. I like your system but quite honestly I prefer the Lee and it will better meet our OP's needs.

[Unclenick]

GWS,

I should make it clear the precision claim is second hand and that I haven't checked it out personally, which is why I referred to it as a claim by others. If I had to guess, it would be based on eliminating the need for a pilot and any chatter that might be associated with imperfect fit thereof, the elimination of closed collet distance variation from the cutter due to variation in case head diameter. For larger cases the trim length stop, at 0.375", is narrower than their extractor grooves, so it dodges the influence of any attendant burrs or bends in the rim.

The Wilson case holders have no shoulder registration. As Wayne pointed out, they are just a sleeve with a tapered hole that grips the sides of the case to keep it coaxial with the cutter. That is what eliminates the need for a pilot. The holder itself slides along the lathe bed freely, so it has nothing to do with setting the length of the trim. Per Wayne's post, trim length is set by the flat head of a long threaded stop at the breech end of the lathe bed that is coaxial with the case and cutter.

The Wilson cutter's own stop is fixed (just the jam nut for the handle), with all the adjustment for case length being made entirely by the threaded stop at the opposite end. You put the case in the holder and just slide it back until the case head meets the stop and hold it there while you trim (or let the Sinclair base hold it there for you).

The Giraud (I have one), like the Gracey and the newer WFT tool, trims neck length, not case length. That's because it registers on the shoulder and not the case head. Still, that's the critical relationship as far as how deeply the case mouth goes into the chamber neck when the shoulder stops the case moving forward in the chamber. I like it for that reason. I haven't found hanging onto cases while using it a hardship, as you control how fast it feeds.

The Forster does do all three cuts as once, like the Giraud and Gracey, while the Wilson does not. That's a real advantage it has.

[GWS]

Wayne_E:

You can download the instruction manual from the Wilson site and see the illustrations more clearly.

Thanks Wayne, you cleared up my misconception. I was told differently....obviously he was mistaken.

TXGunNut:

I like the Lee system, abandoned the RCBS lathe years ago. I recently "upgraded" to the Zip Trim from a cordless drill or even a drill press, it works very well for my <1000 rifle rounds per year, on average. If I want it a bit shorter I simply buy an extra gage and shorten it with a few file strokes. Yes, it looks cheap but it works, like most of Lee's stuff.

Never said it didn't work....I own several, and until I motorized my 40 year-old Forster I used them.....but, wasn't totally satisfied...the Lee collet and my arthritic hands didn't get along....add to that, a general impatience with 38 years of status quo (Rock Chucker loading). That caused me to buy my progressive 3 years ago this January. The trimming bottle neck became more noticeable. About that time Forster came out with their 3-way cutters....so after a weekend project, my trusty old Forster lathe trimmer found a new lease on life.

BTW, ever see or use one of these?


One of Lee's good ideas. They really worked slick! But used a bunch they wore out and broke. I used it for years, but Lee discontinued them. Reminds me of the Zip Trim...automatic man-powdered machine. Notice the blurry box? That's a Lee Target Loader (Lee Loader...target model) That was my first Reloading tool.....shows my age.

And GWS, even after 30 years of loading more rounds than my pickup can safely carry I'd like to say something about our Uncle Nick: when he talks, I listen.

I'm aware of his reputation around these parts and I also listen. I fully expect to be "enlightened." by his view.....which was the reason for addressing him direct in my post. The other reason for the post was to show the O.P. that lathe trimmers (at least the one I have) can be made to sing.

I like your system but quite honestly I prefer the Lee and it will better meet our OP's needs.

And that's your right...and I wouldn't have it any other way...as long as you let me like my system better. As for the OP's needs, perhaps true....but needs change. Mine has over time and experience.

Unclenick, thanks for the additional info on the Wilson.

the elimination of closed collet distance variation from the cutter due to variation in case head diameter. For larger cases the trim length stop, at 0.375", is narrower than their extractor grooves, so it dodges the influence of any attendant burrs or bends in the rim.

While I've never noticed much variation with case head diameter, burrs and bends in the rim certainly could cause collet distance variation, thus checking for damaged rims is important. The narrow trim length stop that dodges the influence of such rim damage is obviously why I assumed that the shoulder was the "measure from". That clears it up.

Wouldn't it still be important to fix or cull damaged rims to prevent ejector and/or head space problems with the reloads?

The Giraud (I have one), like the Gracey and the newer WFT tool, trims neck length, not case length. That's because it registers on the shoulder and not the case head. Still, that's the critical relationship as far as how deeply the case mouth goes into the chamber neck when the shoulder stops the case moving forward in the chamber. I like it for that reason. I haven't found hanging onto cases while using it a hardship, as you control how fast it feeds.

Ok, I thought the bolt/extractor stops the forward movement of the round in the chamber, unless you are referring to the expansion of the case shoulder to the chamber walls and shoulder when fired?

As for the wonderfully popular Giraud, I don't have any experience with it at all, but I have experienced trying to hold on to a case while uniforming primer pockets. I don't like it much....hurts after a dozen or so. I assumed, by comments of other old farts like me who do use Girauds, that after a hundred or so it gets less than fun holding on. I also noticed the Youtube video of Giraud trimming, that the guy has a glove on...to hold on better?
While the numbers of ecstatic Giraud users continue to increase like rabbits, I also already assume the "hold on" factor is not an important factor for pre- oldfarts.

The Forster does do all three cuts as once, like the Giraud and Gracey, while the Wilson does not. That's a real advantage it has.

True enough, but that's not an advantage Wilson couldn't eliminate with a 3-way of their own....right? The speed bump Wilson has, is the very feature that supposedly makes it super accurate. It also keeps it slow.

Again thanks for the information. You never disappoint.
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[Unclenick]

GWS,

I think we're pretty much on the same page. I learned to work the Wilson case holders about as fast as you do the Forster collet in your video (neat setup, by the way). It's one of those motion routine deals, but there is a little more work in it. There is a power drive adapter available for the Wilson for the cutting work.

My dad gave up on his Forster in favor of a Wilson about 20 years ago because he couldn't get the collet to grip cases consistently, but that screwdriver handle of yours might be the ticket. At 90, pop's grip isn't quite as firm as it once was, and that added leverage might bring his Forster back from banishment in the back of the ammo cellar.

I had one of those Lee spiral drive tools. I don't recall what happened to it? Probably wore it out or lent it to somebody. I think that tool died as a product when Lee Precision replaced Lee Manufacturing. The old Lee Zero Error benchrest version of the Lee Loader died with that change, too, and that's too bad. My triple deuce shot many a 5-leaf clover loading with that simple tool.

I agree checking rim damage is important. It can still affect loading, even if the trim wasn't influenced by it. A bolt rifle can be forced closed on it, but that's not best for accuracy because the force applied to flatten it is usually asymmetrical. A floating firing pin self-loader always runs the risk of a slam fire with added closing resistance, so you definitely want to get rid of a bent rim or burrs before feeding in one of these rifles.

Ok, I thought the bolt/extractor stops the forward movement of the round in the chamber, unless you are referring to the expansion of the case shoulder to the chamber walls and shoulder when fired?

That's called headspacing on the extractor. It's unfortunately common. A rimless rifle case should headspace on the shoulder before the rim gets far enough forward to meet the extractor hook. That often isn't the case, but it's better for accuracy if it is, because that lets the taper in the shoulder self-center in the chamber. If the extractor allows no forward free play, then the only way to get the shoulder forward enough to self-center is by neck sizing only. That way the case body is long enough to fill the chamber even with the extractor hook's restraint.

I think the extractor hook tolerance is probably a common cause for some folks swearing neck sizing is the only ticket to accuracy, while others don't see much difference between it and their FL sized loads or who find slight shoulder setback is the best method of keeping the case centered. If the extractor hook stops the case before the shoulder, you get the case bearing against the extractor side of the chamber rather than axially aligned with it. That tends to correct as the case expands under pressure, but even expansion depends on even brass thickness, and most cases don't have exact wall thickness uniformity.

The last time I ran the Giraud it was 300 never previously trimmed .30-06 cases, some of which needed considerable metal removed, but I didn't notice a grip fatigue issue. The gloves (I like the ones for handling frozen items with the little rubber gripping dots all over the surface) keep the burrs we were talking about from putting small cuts in your fingers. Also, if you want to run a couple thousand cases at a sitting, then the glove makes even more sense, as the gripping dots will let you hang on with a little less force.

Nick

[farmerboy]

You should have went with the RCBS!!!!

[TXGunNut]

Never said it didn't work....I own several, and until I motorized my 40 year-old Forster I used them.....but, wasn't totally satisfied...the Lee collet and my arthritic hands didn't get along....add to that, a general impatience with 38 years of status quo (Rock Chucker loading). That caused me to buy my progressive 3 years ago this January. The trimming bottle neck became more noticeable. About that time Forster came out with their 3-way cutters....so after a weekend project, my trusty old Forster lathe trimmer found a new lease on life.

BTW, ever see or use one of these? -GWS


No, looks like something I'd enjoy using tho. My grand dad had a screwdriver/drill that worked like that, no idea where it went or how old it was. I piddle and play most times when I reload, I don't compete or do other activities that require mass qtys of bottle-neck case ammo these days. Unlike you I all but abandoned my progressive press and re-discovered my single-stage after I quit shooting PPC about 12 yrs ago. I only shoot one cartridge that "grows" enough to require a trim after the initial one, could be why some of my favorite cases these days have straight walls. A big batch of cases for me is 50, I doubt I trim over 100 cases most years. This last one was an exception, pulling that string got a little tiresome a couple of times and when I saw your video the first time my shoulder was a little achey. I watched videos of the other trimmers as well. I just never got my head around a trimmer that measures off the shoulder. I know it works, I understand how it works, I just don't like it.
One annoying thing about my faithful little Zip Trim is the sharp edges on the shell holders, have had to "de-horn" a couple of them. There's an under-utilized drill press on the bench near where my Zip Trim hangs out, just in case I get tired of pulling that little string.

[mjm]

You should have went with the RCBS!!!!

Normally I would agree, but last night my RCBS Pro Trim started giving me problems...again. I hope to borrow a Giraud tomorrow and see how it works for me.

[Unclenick]

The only downside to the Giraud and Gracey designs are that it can take three or four cases to get the cutter correctly positioned if it isn't already set up for your chambering.

Another thing you'll find they do differently is because the case registration is on the outside of the case, even if your cases have been sized with the necks perfectly straight, if you have uneven neck wall thickness the cutter will deburr the outside correctly, but will chamfer the inside off-center, cutting more deeply on one side than the other. The piloted type, like the Forster, should tends to do the opposite, cutting the inside evenly and the outside unevenly. Hand tools get both correct because they cut on the axis of whichever surface they are bearing on at the time.

If that uneven cutting seems like a flaw, I find it an advantage. The Giraud cuts a 14° VLD base chamfer profile, and that's steep enough so your eye gets a fairly sensitive visual indication of which cases have uniform neck walls and which don't. The most uniform ones get put aside for 600 yard prone slow fire, the worst go into the 200 yard offhand and practice piles.

[454PB]

I own several case trimmers, from the Lee to the Wilson.

The Wilson is without a doubt the most accurate, and is just as fast to operate as any of the others after getting into the "motions".

My next favorite is my old Hornady that uses a shell holder to secure the case.

All the collet types I've used where a PITA and inaccurate.