F Troop strikes again in Tucson

[stuckatwork]

For clarity sake let me define what the booby-traps were in Ehor house. He had attached trip wires to some of his firearms. The people digging through his collection caught a face full of tear gas. Like I stated in an earlier email, this guy lives in a high crime area. If the shoe was on the other foot and he came home to find a burgler rolling on the floor with a lungful of CS, he would have been branded a hero.

Another fact that you may not realize. Ehor had an FFL, like most said, probably a C&R. I have one of those also. They are a good deal. When you apply for a C&R you MUST send a letter to the local CLEO in your community. In our case, that would be the Chief of the Tucson Police. In this letter you must state, who you are, where you live and that you are getting ready to conduct trading and collecting under the regulations set out for the C&R. BANG! Your local PD know what you are up to. Period, paragraph. I can't say this for sure, but I'll be the cops knew there was a gun collection in that house before they reached the address. I need to ask a cop that I know if a C&R address somes up when they get a call to that location.

If you don't think this happened, let me tell a short tale. Me: new CCW. Driving down the street, minding my own business. Cop car, lights, pull over stuff. The cop came up to my window, hand on his side arm. "Sir, before we start, are you carrying a gun?" Me: "No". Cop: "Are you sure? Lying can get you on trouble". "I have a CCW< if I was armed I would tell you". "Why did you pull me over?" Cop: "brake light out..." Me: "Oh, okay".
Cop: "Step out of the car, I need to be sure you aren't armed..(this is the line I love) for yours and my safety No gun for real, I took real exception to being pawed up like that.

Okay what did this teach me? A) That the fact in Arizona a CCW doesn't have to declare is BS. B) that the fact you own a CCW will not be known to the LEO on a routine check is bull C)We are more controlled than we even realize.

Even if the Ehor guy had screwed up some, he deserves all the protection that a citizen is entitled to. ANd we should not loose sight of that. As been said here a bunch of times: YOU COULD BE NEXT!

[SW9M]

No my carry guns are readily available

GUNS as in more than one!!

I only carry one and it only has a 7 round thingy! I bet yours are some of those "high capacity", "assault machine pistols" jobs! Only premeditating murderers need more that 10 rounds. And you carry more than one

Mr. G-man please, please do something, he is a premeditating wacko, blood-thirsty, gun-nut. OOOHHHH MYYYYY GGOODDDD! THE CHILDREN. WE MUST SAVE THE CHILDREN.

AAARRRGGG!!! HOW COULD THE POLICE LET THIS MAN WALK THE STREETS!!!

HELP!HELP!



And you think you won't be next!

Wake up dude.

[ronin308]

stuckatwork- The wonderful world of the Terry Doctrine!!! This is an exception to the 4th Amendment that allows officers to stop a person for a reasonable amount of time when they have "reasonable suspicion that crime is afoot". Also it allows them to conduct a pat down search "for the officer's safety". Pretty cool huh!?

Medicated One- Tell us why again that the powder posed a "public safety" problem? Also, justify why booby trapping is an indication of insanity. If you speak, you must back up your words.

Dan

[Bottom Gun]

So what are we going to do, Folks?

[gorlitsa]

BottomGun-

We're writing letters and making phone calls that don't get anywhere. Any updates on lawyers/contacting this guy? There's not a whole lot we can do until we get permission from Ehor or they charge him with something, right?

We're also going to bicker amoung ourselves over relativly pointless questions. Must not forget that!

[Bottom Gun]

Gorlitsa,

Yeah, I know. I wish the ones who don't want to do anything would take their bickering somewhere else.

Does anyone know if someone has been able to contact Eroh yet?

[D.W. Drang]

"News 13 has learned Eroh does in fact hold a license, which is essentially a dealer's permit issued by the ATF. This license provides Eroh with access to certain-caliber firearms--or collectibles-- not available to the public. And could clear Eroh of any possession charges, so long as no machine guns or active military explosives are found inside his home."

Isn't AZ a Class III state? I remember whan I was at ANCOC at Huachuica they had a gun show in the rec center (!!!) and there was at least one dealer selling full auto. That was in 92/93 though..

"The only way we can provide a safe environment for those who live here it to approach it with that idea," Sgt. Borboa says. "That something in those cannisters can be dangerous."

Words fail me... Well, sort of. Anyone have a house/home that is COMPLETELY DEVOID of "canisters full of stuff that could be dangerous...?" Sgt. Borboa? Davis MOntham Zoomies? (Fat chance--I've known Air Force EOD guys...) Jounalists, er, I mean, On-Air Personalities"? Anyone, anyone? Buehler...?

Edited by DW Drang to eliminate typos caused by 15 pound Maine Coon "kitten" jumping in lap...

[OF]

The one thing I don't get is this, why do they take all of his guns, I can see where the powder can be an issue, but why the guns?
Is it because they can?

You can almost hear the gears start to turn in there, can't you? Keep pondering that one, MedicatedOne, and the fog just may start to lift.

Peace,

How does the saying go: You want peace? Fight for justice.

- Gabe

[Shin-Tao]

!

[sumabich]

We are all entitled to our opinions, let's be respectful. I am waiting for Joe to check in again before I get too crazy.

[Nanaimo Barr]

does anyone else find it interesting that the media seemed able to find out that this guy had a FFL/C&R (still trying to find out what a C&R is)?

are these publicaly accessable records? if I had a FFL/C&R/CCW does that mean some reporter can call and find out? I know some people who I don't want to know I even own firearms..

(like my brother, when he gets out of jail next time)

[Quartus]

Ah 'spect the cops told 'em.

[gorlitsa]

A lady from the Arizona Daily Star informed me that a warrant for search was issued. Is there any way we can find out who the judge was? I'd like to find out what sort of justification he could give....

[MedicatedOne]

Did you people read one particular post? You will see that I was trying to stimulate some of you into analyzing YOUR postions. It appears that only shock therapy could stimulate some of you.
Have you ever heard of a Devils advocate?????

stuckatwork,
No the C&R comes up nowhere in the TPD database, if it did, I would have been in trouble for hanging out at their houses to see their collections.

ronin308,
Are you serious, you don't see how a large quantity of explosives is dangerous? How to explain that you, is beyond me.

GRD,
I have fought for justice, however it is a legal system and justice plays no part in it. I have done my part for peace also.
I guess I just haven't done it to your liking, but I will keep trying to meet your standards so as to get your approval.

Gorlitsa,
The Clerk of the Superior Court should be able to tell you who signed the warrant, but they may not be open til tuesday due to Presidents Day.

Onward into the abyss. I really do believe the stuff below, honest.
Well, only an extremely paranoid person, who has crossed into the mentally ill category would booby trap their house.
The paranoia involved to use booby traps is extreme, but I don't find it surprising that some of you support this guy, you sound like birds of a feather.

The 22/Country Club area is not a high crime area. Lots of low income people, but crime is not very high.
If this guy was so concerned that someone would take his guns that he had to booby trap them, why not buy a safe?
Oh, I see that would be too rational for you all, you would rather booby trap em.

I stand behind my comments about responsible storage of your weapons. It is easier to secure them, then to complain when you are burglarized and they are gone.
I am all for a large firearms collection, I am working on it daily, but to leave em laying around the house is irresponsible. IMHO

The funny thing is, I am the MedicatedOne. Maybe I should be sharing with the rest of you.

[Ed Brunner]

A " large quantity of powder" and a "large quantity of explosives" are completely different things in the same way that "combustion" is different from "explosion".
The issue here is freedom and it is not based my judgement or yours. Mr. Eroh as an American citizen is entitled to make certain decisions for himself regardless of whether you or I agree with him. Until just recently, we did not have the Good Housekeeping Compliance Patrol, but now they apparently are gaining status and the fact that Eroh apparently failed his first inspection allowed the confiscation of his property.

[deanf]

Well, only an extremely paranoid person, who has crossed into the mentally ill category would booby trap their house.

You know we had a house in a police jurisdiction that I used to work for that had a tear gas dispensing system. We just noted it in the dispatch computer, at the resident's request. None of the officers or the chief saw any reason to see him as "extremely paranoid" or "mentally ill." If they had, I'm sure they would have ordered a 48-hour mandatory mental evaluation at the local hospital.

So basically you're diagnosing him as mentally ill because he has undertaken certain activities inside his own private home that would only cause harm to intruders. Are you a doctor?

Do you carry a gun? Why? What are you afraid of? I think you're paranoid. (But I don't really think that, because I'm not qualified to make that judgement, and I don't think you are either.)

[MedicatedOne]

Ed Brunner,
Good point, I have to agree with you on the fact that neither of our opinions really matter too much, but it is fun to express them.

I frankly think it is ridicilous that they took all of his weapons, I am sure they put them in for "safekeeping".
Of course if they can convict him on some felony charge, then they get to keep them and destroy them.
The weapons will not be returned until after the trial, due to the pending felonies that they will dream up for him.
So in essence, he will never get them back.
Is it right? NO, but it is legal. Hence my emphasis that it is a legal system, not a justice system.

I will relent that the powder is not the threat that I thought it once was, it seems I have actually learned something from this thread and a little side research. I admit I was wrong about the powder, for that I apologize.

Deanf,
You are right, I am not a doctor, but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it just might be a duck.
I guess my line in the sand on paranoia is booby traps, they are indiscriminate, just like land mines and therefore wreckless and irresponsible, IMHO.
Our firearms are under our control, in theory, and therefore not indiscriminate.
BTW, I carry two guns, a Glock 20 and a Smith 649.
I am not paranoid, they really are out to get me.

You know the best thing about this thread?? I am re-examining my views and even changing them, aint personal growth a wonderful thing.
Is anybody else experiencing a similar epiphany????

[MedicatedOne]

Go to this link and see the TPD chief and his assistant chiefs in action.
http://www.tucsonweekly.com/tw/2000-09-07/curr4.html

[Joe Portale]

Medicatedone, I wouldn't bet the farm on whether the cops know who holds a C&R in your town. I don't know where you live, but it would not be fair to assign the rules of your PD to where I live. The Tucson Chief of Police is on record as being an anti. Only cops should own guns. One of the guys at work was an auxillary officer, he flew plans for the PD on extriditions. The cheif didn't want to give him a letter authorizing him to purchase high cap mags for his department issued pistol. When I was considering picking up a full auto to play in the machinegun matches around here, I was told by a high ranking officer on he staff that the Chief would not sign a letter for any citizen to have a machine gun. He fought like hell to keep a city ordinance banning concealed weapons (with a permit) or open carry from city parks and recreation areas (he lost). Tucson is gun-friendly inspite of the city administration. Just because you "hung out to see their collections" doesn't mean a thing. Because you didn't give them cause to do anything about it, "looking at someone's collection' is far different than owning one, and there are many things that the cops know about you that they will never tell the general public. Not everything they have is public information, it falls under the heading of "intelligence". How do I know these things? I am a College support manager and our DPS, yep these guys went through the stuff to be real cops, and I help buy the the computer systems, pay the rent on the NICS and other LEO info systems, ride in the cars, damn, I BUY THE CARS, hear the radio chatter, wrote the requistion for our use of the TPD /Pima Sheriff and DPS tactical channels on the repeater, do I need to go on?

Now, Med, if you are a prohibited person, due to your medications(?) then you have no business being around guns. If you own any, then you should loose them. Ehor was not a prohibited person. He had the paper work to collect. The C&R is a simple formality that let's you buy pass some of the idiocy of buying retail. If you are violating the rules of firearms prohibition, you should be punished.

The latest on the Ehor front is this, my buddy has made the calls tothe NRA national board folks. They promised that they would have someone local that does the leg work look into this. I haven't had a chance to get back with the lawyers. I am hoping that if Ehor doesn't have the money, which he probably doesn't since he is on disability, one of them will pick it up pro bono or at least tap the NRA. More will be presented as I hear or learn about it.

Sumbich, thanks for the kind words, I'll be answering you off the TFL later.

[MedicatedOne]

Joe,
Sorry to burst your bubble, but I do live in Tucson.
I have insight into the TPD RMS database that it appears you don't.
The MDT/MTC system does not provide the "intelligence" info that you speak of, the terminals are very limited in their abilities, due to the antiquated software that TPD still uses.
I deal with them daily from the user side. If ya get my drift.
TPD address returns don't give any info about weapons unless it has been specifically entered by a particular officer. They have no idea who has a C&R and who doesn't, at least in the field.

TPD officers lost the privilege to get high-caps, because a few of them were buying LEO only for about $18 a piece and using them to replace their pre-bans which they then sold for about $100 a piece. Some did the same things with AR15's, they lost that privilege too.

As for the chief, well he is a politician. He does what the council tells him to keep his $100k+ a year job. Heck, he doesn't even want his troops to have patrol rifles, wouldn't want to have an evil rifle out there, now would we.

The MedicatedOne is a joke. Honestly though, don't most cops seem like they need a dose of Prozac??

Where are the full-auto matches held? Pima Pistol Club or elsewhere?

[Joe Portale]

Medicated,

I bend to you "get your drift". As a curoisity question, since Ehor had had a prior complaint on him for threatening a neighbor with "blowing him away", a charge that was not pressed by the DA, could this have triggered something in the system? Just wondering. You aren't going to tell me that certain criminals are not in the database are you?

The machine gun matches were being held at Three Points Range. They have since moved to the Ben Avory in Phoenix. Since they went north, I haven't kept track of them. I gave up on the full auto idea because of the price tags on these things.

As far as the prozac goes, heck we could probably use a crop duster to spray half the city...wait a minute that may not be such a good idea these days...

Hey if you are in Tucson, wanna get some of the local TFL'rs and go out to play sometime at one of the ranges? Maybe have a TFL Goofy Shoot? I'm famous at PCC for putting those together. The best 'dern cheapola matches that one can have with cardboard, donuts and a box of crayons. I have the distinct honor of presiding over the first ever "Flying Tortilla" stage ever done at Three Points. Drew quite a crowd that day.

[MedicatedOne]

Joe,
The system in the car won't accomadate that kind of info, but in the station one should be able to access the info that refers to his previous police contact. Assuming the system isn't frozen like a popsicle.
As a Lt friend of mine said to me last year, "I will drag this dept kicking and screaming into the mid 1980's."

Count me in on the goofy shoot, I work weekends, but might be able to make it.
Is the "Flying Tortilla" stage anything like skeet shooting compact discs?

[Joe Portale]

Tortilla shoot is like CD Skeet. Except we use three day old, hard as nails tortillas. Some times we hand them from target stands as spinners. They blow apart much abiligingly. We usually use handguns for the tortilla shoots.

[clem]

Joe,
A shoot for Tucson area TFL members!!!!!!!!! Let me know when & where.....I'll try and come.
Clem
USMC Retired

[MatthewM]

>>MatthewM,
You would just have ignored the booby trapped house. What a good citizen you are.<< "Needs more MedicatedONe"..

The guy booby trapped the INSIDE of his own home (his castle). We have the right to do ANYTHING we please to the inside of our own home.

As long as I did not see photos of under 12yr olds having sex with adults or an active meth lab, I would respect his rights and privacy and locked his home for him. It's called being a good neighbor. If I was a cop, I would tell the dept that we need to do some extra patrols as the guy is in the hospital.

Where exactly to some of you draw the line? He had a few boxes of smokeless powder and far less of black powder. I only shoot about 1500 rounds a year of 45acp so I only keep 1-2# of powder on hand. Of course, I should keep 10# in case it is made illegal or more difficult to buy. Yep, that's right, if it was made illegal to possess, I would only buy more. Guess I'm mentally unstable and should have my home raided.

Now, if I reloaded for 10 different cartridges, I would need to keep much more powder on hand. If I did some reloading for friends or supplemented my pension by selling reloads at gun shows, then I would need more than this guy had.

Since when does anothers sense of "need" have anything to do with what I do? Did he "need" 140 guns? Maybe, he definitely "wanted" them. Isn't that good enough? There are many wealthy people like Jay Leno who have over a hundred extremely expensive cars. Probably over a hundred gallons of premium oil and such to feed them. He certainly has no NEED for all those cars.

What if the old guy IS a little senile. If he was a good natured friendly gun owner 20yrs ago, his senility would not likely make him go out and shoot people. So, again, why treat him like this?

Anyone here who make a bunch of negative opinions about the guy because he decided not to spend $12,000 on twelve gun safes that would crush his home is simply being negative and judgmental. If it is inside his own home he has no requirements to own a safe. I don't own a safe because I would rather spend the money on firearms and my kids. I think owning a safe by some is paranoia. But, it's OK with me. Myself, I have homeowners insurance.