Pietta Remington 1858 load directions are confusing.

[jmstr]

I have just picked up a Pietta New Model Army Remington 1858 steel framed [with brass trigger guard] revolver.

I have been doing some reading and have run into something confusing: the recommended load variation. For all following points, FFFG is the powder in discussion.

I am seeing the majority of posters on various forums recommending a load of between 25-30 grains of FFFG powder under a .451 or .454 ball. [let's skip grease/wonderwad/cornmeal issues at this time.]

The Uberti manual for the same pistol design references 22-30 grains of FFFG under a .454 ball.

The Ruger Old Army manual says to start with 20 grains and use whatever will fit, but that the max amount will not be as accurate.

SO: 2 manufacturers and a host of people with experience say to use between 20 and 40 grains of FFFG.



WHY does Pietta list 12-15 grains of FFFG?


Is this a 'universal' so that it doesn't overstress their brass frames? [mine is steel.]

Is this due to an inferior quality of steel in the firearm from Pietta?

Is this just lawyer BS?


What I am wondering is if there is any REAL reason [not counting the bad lawyers: good ones are on the range with us having fun] not to use 20-35grains of FFFG in an all-steel Pietta New Army 1858 Remington?

Thanks in advance.

[44 Dave]

The 12-15 grains might not be enough to be compressed with the ram on the gun with out a wad or filler.

[foolzrushn]

Guess it depends on whether you are after accuracy or lots of smoke. I think I have usually heard to start low and work up till the accuracy falls off. I am working on finding my best load. I want to load light just to maximize shots per pound ($$$).

That said this the perfect weekend for boom and smoke!

[foolzrushn]

The great locomotive chase is on TCM right now, in case anyone is interested.

[jmstr]

I was just wondering if there is really any reason to stop at 15 grains?

Weak metallurgy that splits/grenades the cylinder at 25-35 grains would be a good reason, for example.

"The lawyers don't like guns and are worrywarts" is not a good reason.

I'd love to get out this weekend, but have too many family commitments to go play. Plus it might be under 100 sometime this weekend, if I am lucky, but there is no guarantee. I HATE HEAT!

When I get this out there, I will be comparing it [feel/etc] to the Ruger Old Army I picked up last summer.

Haven't fired either yet: that can't last!

[foolzrushn]

I had picked up a Navy Arms Colt 1851 .44 cal about 30 some years ago and just fired it a week ago. Now probably hooked. It's a Pietta steel frame and I was using Pyrodex P. I decided to make Gatofeo #1 an put a dab under the ball. Had no fouling think I could have kept shooting. But it was hot and the skeeters were not deturred by the smoke, so I guess I wasn't making enough.

[foolzrushn]

This might something to think about....on my .44 the barrel is pretty thin where the recess for the loadind ram is. Also by the bottom of the forcing cone where it's cut for the ram.

I have heard that Pietta just bores out the .36 cal barrel to .44. Guess the .36 might have stronger ( thicker) walls. Don't think you mentioned cal, but ball size indicates yours is a .44 too.

Take the Pietta barrel off and slip the loading ram out, and look in the ram hole from the cylinder side. See where the screw hole for retaining the wedge cuts into the bottom of the barrel? Unless they changed it, it's thin like mine. Something to think about when doing max loads!

[Hawg]

With a steel frame as long as the cylinder will turn you can pack as much powder in it as you want. Pietta's manuals are generic and the loads listed are low enough they won't hurt a brass frame. I generally use 30 grain loads in .44's and 25 in .36's but have used 35 and even 40 in .44's but I won't use less than 30 in a .44.

[Bishop Creek]

I second what Hawg says. For target shooting with my Pietta Shooters model, I use 22 grains of 3fG black powder with filler under a .457 round ball, but for my basic Cabela's 1858 Remmies, I use 28 to 30 grains of 3fg under a .451or .454 round ball. It ain't gonna blow up, been doing it that way for over 45 years with no problems.

[jmstr]

thanks all. I will start with 20 grains and begin moving up.

Foolzrushn: I looked at the chamber end of the barrel/bore [forcing cone area].

I don't see what you are talking about, in terms of it being thinned down.

I see the frame having a scallop cut into it to allow the barrel to retain its' thickness.

The barrel seems to be the same thickness near the top-strap as it is where it is in that scallop area at the bottom of the barrel [nearest the cylinder pin].

I thought it might be thinner down below, but I looked again carefully and realized the rest of it looked thicker due to the fact the other 270 degrees are 'freestanding', while the bottom area is touching metal at the barrel end. Since it is touching metal, it tends to make it look thinner. The closest thing Ican think of to connect this visual effect to is enstasis [spelling?] in Greek/Roman columns. They had to make the columns thicker in the middle to make them appear the same dimension. Trick of the eye.

The loading ram is below the pivot point for the cylinder/base pin, and the barrel looks like it is the same thickness throughout that area. I do notice that the base/cylinder pin is thinner, and I assumed that was for clearance on the pistol barrel.

The one I just got was from a neighbor, who bought it from Cabela's about 5 months ago. So, relatively new production.

Thanks for the load tips everyone!

[foolzrushn]

jmstr - My mistake, for some reason I was thinking you were talking about a Colt and you were not, you were talking Remington. Don't know what I was thinking. I should have re-read the post. Sorry (place embarrassed smilie here)

[Hawg]

A Colt will handle just as much as a Remington.

[Dr. Strangelove]

*** Warning: Over-max load load *** (Just CYA, you know)

I had a Pietta New Model Army Remington 1858 steel framed [with brass trigger guard] revolver. (In fact, I copied the OP's description) Mine was a .44 cal.

I always poured the chambers dead level full of Pyrodex P and squashed a ball onto it, no lube. I never had an issue or a chain fire in 20 years, YMMV.

Do what you want, but I'm sure the manual is lawyerized, while the gun is built to do what they figure everyone will do, which is fill it up with BP. Would I do this with smokeless powder, oh hell no, but Pyrodex, sure.

[g.willikers]

WHY does Pietta list 12-15 grains of FFFG?

It's just a suggestion.
Might be sensible for a .36 brass frame, though.
I use 25 grains of Triple 7, with very acceptable results for a steel Pietta 44.
There doesn't seem to be any difference if it's FF or FFF.
But it's just for plinking fun and making smoke.
FF is more readily available it seems.

[bedbugbilly]

jmstr - from the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook - 2nd edition

The Lyman 44 Cal New Model Army (which is the equivalent to your revolver)

.451 Round Ball

FFG - 20 gr. - 555 FPS
FFG - 35 gr. - 775 FPS

FFFG - 20 gr. - 665 FPS
FFFG - 35 gr. - 785 FPS

In essence, developig a load for a C & B revolver is no different than developing one for a cartridge revolver. The Golden Rule of reloading is "start at minimum and work up, never exceeding maximum loading data".

With your Remington, start "lower" and work up until you hit the spot where you get the best accuracy out of it at the distance you are shooting it.

The biggest thing with BP is to make sure your load is compressed (no air space) - that goes for C & B, rifle, shotgun as well as BP cartridge loading.

Some folks seem to think they NEED to us the maximum - more whollap, more smoke, yada, yada, yada. Don't worry, you will get enough smoke. I was taught to shoot muzzleloaders when I was 10 in the very early 1960s by an old gunsmith who was pushing 90. One of the first thing he taught me was that with any muzzleloader or pistol, "use enough to get the job done but no more than you need to". Sounds like "simple advice" but it has a lot of truth in it.

Start with lower loads until you are comfortable shooting your revolver in regards to feel, recoil, ignition time, etc. Then start with a lower load, load a cylinder full and check your results. Next cylinder, bump it up a few grains and see the results. Eventually, you'll find a charge that works well out of "your" pistol. C & B pistols are no different than cartridge hand guns. They each have their own "personalities" and the all have their "likes" and "dis-slimes".

Good luck and enjoy!

[Rookie21]

I use 17 grains 3Fg Goex (by weight not volume) under cornmeal and a .454 that I cast my self. Works great. The gun was actually set up for .457 ball but the .454 is winning me matches so why switch? 17 grains is just what shot accurately in my gun. Funny but I shoot 17 grains in my .36 and .32 single shots too!

[maillemaker]

You will probably find maximum accuracy with about 18 grains 3F Goex.

Steve