What Would the Army’s Dream Rifle Mean for Tactics? - Page 2

**44 AMP** · November 20, 2018, 09:01 PM

Quote:

The .45-70's used after the rifled musket was replaced also packed tremendous stopping power. Only problem was ammo capacity and speed of reloading in combat.

You're missing the obvious point about the ammo capacity and speed of reloading in combat. It wasn't the "only" problem, it wasn't a problem AT ALL.

when the other guy and you share the universal capacity (one shot) its not a problem. And when you have a breech loader, and he has a muzzle loader, not only do you have a blazing reloads speed advantage, you also have the huge tactical advantage of being able to reload while lying down!!

When your tech is cutting edge (and it works,

) its always an advantage. When the other guys tech surpasses yours, THEN its a problem, but not until then.

stonewall50 · November 20, 2018, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy

The problem there is the aspect of "hypothetically." When has there been longer and shorter rifles where everything else was equal?

In this case, not only is it not going to be equal, but the military is expecting higher performance which will introduce a lot more unequal aspects.

Oh absolutely. My main thought was in that if you could squeeze the same performance and reliability out of a Bull pup. OFor the same overall length you get a longer barrel

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**44 AMP** · November 21, 2018, 02:50 PM

The downsides to a bullpup are balance, the long trigger linkage, and having the action close to your face.

As far as I can tell, the original bullpups were bolt action varmint rifles, where one either got a handy short rifle with a full length barrel or made a near regular length bullpup rifle with an extra long barrel for added velocity.

Trigger pulls were normally not as good as was achievable with conventional bolt guns, due to the linkage involved. Still good enough for hunting, when done well though.

The bullpup concept doesn't work quite as well for a combat rifle, while the short overall length with a standard length barrel is a huge plus, with a semi/select fire combat weapon, there are drawbacks. Do they overcome the advantages? some say yes, some no.

Short is handy is so many ways, but with the bulk of the mass not being "between the hands" some find it awkward. The answer to this is, of course, training. Personally since I'm well past the point of combat, don't do houseclearing, don't climb in and out of APCs all day, I'll stick with my full size M1A for a "service" rifle.

Plus, while I don't expect my rifle to "ka boom" for me its a little comforting to know that should disaster happen, its going to happen a few inches in front of my face, and not pressed against my right cheek!

dakota.potts · November 21, 2018, 07:14 PM

Seems to me that the idea of a rifle is going to have to be re-thought to meet those requirements.

125 grains at 3500 FPS is remarkable, especially in a 16" barrel. By comparison, a full rifle length 7mm rem mag shoots 139 gr bullet around 3200 FPS.

Even if they could get what they wanted, how many people would even be able to shoot a whole magazine through an infantry weight rifle before the recoil became excessive?

I believe we will have to advance our chemical composition of propellants before anything like this is a reality. That means advancements in metallurgy and engineering to handle the pressures involved.

And how we deal with the recoil and keep the whole thing in a cartridge that isn't the size of a belted magnum is another issue.

Dano4734 · November 21, 2018, 08:01 PM

I see now they are considering those plastic cases bullets without any brass. I forget what they are called

TXAZ · November 21, 2018, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dano4734

I see now they are considering those plastic cases bullets without any brass. I forget what they are called

Polymer.

Bartholomew Roberts · November 24, 2018, 10:46 AM

Anybody want to volunteer to test a bullpup in a cartridge with probably 80-100k psi chamber pressures?

Double Naught Spy · November 24, 2018, 11:08 AM

Sure. You just need to have the appropriate thickness barrel to go with it is all. Of course, that is going to add weight, or maybe they are using some sort of new barrel material to go with the new cartridge? After all, how is it going to retain accuracy so well as well.

So many new things. No doubt there are going to be significant hurdles and setbacks in development.

November 21, 2018, 02:50 PM	#28
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,803	The downsides to a bullpup are balance, the long trigger linkage, and having the action close to your face. As far as I can tell, the original bullpups were bolt action varmint rifles, where one either got a handy short rifle with a full length barrel or made a near regular length bullpup rifle with an extra long barrel for added velocity. Trigger pulls were normally not as good as was achievable with conventional bolt guns, due to the linkage involved. Still good enough for hunting, when done well though. The bullpup concept doesn't work quite as well for a combat rifle, while the short overall length with a standard length barrel is a huge plus, with a semi/select fire combat weapon, there are drawbacks. Do they overcome the advantages? some say yes, some no. Short is handy is so many ways, but with the bulk of the mass not being "between the hands" some find it awkward. The answer to this is, of course, training. Personally since I'm well past the point of combat, don't do houseclearing, don't climb in and out of APCs all day, I'll stick with my full size M1A for a "service" rifle. Plus, while I don't expect my rifle to "ka boom" for me its a little comforting to know that should disaster happen, its going to happen a few inches in front of my face, and not pressed against my right cheek! __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

November 21, 2018, 07:14 PM	#29
dakota.potts Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2013 Location: Keystone Heights, Florida Posts: 3,084	Seems to me that the idea of a rifle is going to have to be re-thought to meet those requirements. 125 grains at 3500 FPS is remarkable, especially in a 16" barrel. By comparison, a full rifle length 7mm rem mag shoots 139 gr bullet around 3200 FPS. Even if they could get what they wanted, how many people would even be able to shoot a whole magazine through an infantry weight rifle before the recoil became excessive? I believe we will have to advance our chemical composition of propellants before anything like this is a reality. That means advancements in metallurgy and engineering to handle the pressures involved. And how we deal with the recoil and keep the whole thing in a cartridge that isn't the size of a belted magnum is another issue. __________________ Certified Gunsmith (On Hiatus) Certified Armorer - H&K and Glock Among Others You can find my writings at my website, pottsprecision.com.

November 24, 2018, 11:08 AM	#33
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,717	Sure. You just need to have the appropriate thickness barrel to go with it is all. Of course, that is going to add weight, or maybe they are using some sort of new barrel material to go with the new cartridge? After all, how is it going to retain accuracy so well as well. So many new things. No doubt there are going to be significant hurdles and setbacks in development. __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

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November 21, 2018, 08:01 PM	#30
Dano4734 Senior Member Join Date: October 6, 2014 Posts: 730	I see now they are considering those plastic cases bullets without any brass. I forget what they are called

November 24, 2018, 10:46 AM	#32
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	Anybody want to volunteer to test a bullpup in a cartridge with probably 80-100k psi chamber pressures?