45/70 and big bears.

[The Terminator]

I think that we all agree, the 45/70 will kill any animal in North America. In Georgia, for sure. But, has anyone ever depended on one for grizzlies, or polar bears, or kodiak bears, as a defense or for hunting?

If in the situation, would you feel that you had enough gun? Is it really used that much in Alaska? How much of its name is marketing technique, and how much is function? I can only speculate, I'd like to hear from those in the know. - Best

[MeekAndMild]

I gave this a lot of speculation myself when I was planning my spring (black) bear hunt last year. In the end I didn't take my Marlin 1895 because it's just too much gun for blackies, has problems with trajectory over 250 yards and I couldn't maintain acceptable offhand shooting accuracy due to its recoil profile. (It kicks like being hit by Fred Sanford's 2x4 that he keeps behind the door soaking in a can of motor oil.) From what I've read it might have difficulties in the immediate lethality department if a person was not able to hit a big animal in exactly the right spot. But it would be probably pretty good for close range defense if a person was fishing in bear country. All this, except my exerience trying to overcome the trajectory and recoil problems, is speculation...sorry.

You might want to send a PM to Wildalaska, one of the forum members who manages a gun store in Alaska and who sells a lot of guns to bear hunters. He asserts a number of years experience listening to gun complaints from real bear hunters, knowing which guns they complain the least about.

[Buzzcook]

The .45-70 will kill big bears.
If you're concerned about the charging grizzly that seems to magically appear at twenty yards on this board, then you might consider a 12 gauge slug gun.

[kraigwy]

The 45-70 would be fine for bears. You can dern near load them to 458 Win specs in the right rifle, but thats not really necessary.

Figure it out, the 338 win mag, its quite popular for big bears in Alaska, the 300 grn 45-70 in a marlin shoot it about as fast.

Dont know if I'd complain much about the trejectory, lots of buffalo were killed with them at 1000 yards or such.

I spent 22 years in alaska, in bear country I carried a 375 H&H, but the only bear I killed was with a 7mm Rem Mag.

[roklok]

I would take a 45-70 with good loads before any 12 guage slug. I am not sure what the fascination with slugs for bear is, but I am not aware of any slug that will penetrate like a good rifle bullet. The Alaska Wildlife Troopers are given rifles (usually .338s but my buddy was given a .350 Rem Mag)for solving bear issues instead of using the department issued 870 12 guage. The Troopers use Brenneke slugs (one of the best penetrating slugs) in their 870s but have found that rifles work better.

[roklok]

To answer another question, the 45-70 is fairly popular up here. I see a lot of them and I have one but have not killed a grizzly with it, my favorite bear rifle is the .35 Whelen. I believe that most grizzlies killed up here are killed with calibers that a lot of out of state hunters would consider inadequate. The 30-30, 308, 270, 30-06 are used extensively by many native and rural dwelling Alaskans to kill scores of bears. I personally know of more than one grizzly done in with .223, as well as 7.62 x 39. Standard calibers far outnumber magnums in Bush Alaska. I handload for my 45-70 and am getting 2100 FPS with 400 grain bullet. I am sure that when I get the chance to shoot a bear with this rifle it will do the job easily.

[zahnzieh]

Love that caliber, recoil not that bad. Use it in my Pedersoli Sharps!

[stevelyn]

All the bears I've killed has been with 12 ga Brenneke slugs and one with a .375.

The Brennekes have been complete pass throughs. I suspect that a 405+ gr from a .45-70 would whistle right through with less effort than the Brennekes.

The .45-70 and its Marlin based magnum derivitives are becoming more popular here.

WA can probably tell you how many .457 WWGs are going out the door.

[Shooting-Star]

Agree with Kraig above - the 338 win mag is used alot in Alaska but your 45-70 would be fine as well.

[wyobohunter]

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...kodiak+island"

A Kodiak Island Bear/Deer hunt report. The weapon was a Marlin Guide Gun (45-70). I personally know several people who choose this same rifle as a packin around in bear country gun. Just make sure you roll your own or buy the Garrett/Cor-Bon/Buffalo Bore ammo, the other factory stuff is made for the old trap door rifles (weak).

[Wildalaska]

WA can probably tell you how many .457 WWGs are going out the door.

For Alaskans...probably 1000 plus.

WildextremelypopularAlaska TM

[wyobohunter]

guess terminator has already seen that link, considering he replied to it

[Swampghost]

The 45-70 was the darling of the buffalo hunters, about the same size as a large bear. I've seen films where they just dropped where they were standing.

My experience is limited to an 1873 Trapdoor, the vernier sight goes to 1200 yds. I've shot it at 1K. Other than being able to take a nap between pulling the trigger and the bullet arriving on target it's pretty impressive.

An ounce is 437.5 gr., OTC cartridges are 405 or 500 gr. In general you're throwing an ounce of lead, that's got to hurt something. The black bear that I shot rolled over and played dead on the spot. I'll swear that the deer was lifted off of it's feet, never did that again.

More info here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45-70

[jhgreasemonkey]

I believe that most grizzlies killed up here are killed with calibers that a lot of out of state hunters would consider inadequate. The 30-30, 308, 270, 30-06 are used extensively by many native and rural dwelling Alaskans to kill scores of bears.

Thanks for clarifying that. I have heard that quite a few times from Alaskans. You ask anyone down here and they will tell you that you need at least a .577 t rex or .600 nitro express .

[stolivar]

most buffalo hunters used 44-77, .44-90, .50-70, and .50-90.

the 45-70 was not used much by professional hunters till after 1876. This brings us to another bit of legend--that buffalo hunters regularly shot beasts at ranges such as 1,000 yards. That's pure horse-pucky! Target shooters of the era did compete at such enormous ranges but not the bison hunters. They were businessmen, and flinging lead around the countryside wasted it and powder and primers, all of which had to be freighted to them from railheads in mule or ox-drawn wagons. In short, components were expensive. A little research reveals professional hide hunters made their "stands" at more reasonable ranges up to a few hundred yard.


steve

[elkman06]

This brings us to another bit of legend--that buffalo hunters regularly shot beasts at ranges such as 1,000 yards. That's pure horse-pucky!

+4....
To stay with the time frame, the only recorded and verified re:surveyed long shot of the day was on a Comanche Indian shot in the back at 1069yds by a buff hunter named Billy Dixon at the Battle of Adobe Walls. Definitely impressive w/ blackpowder, however A 7-8in thick man as opposed to a 30in buff chest w/ 1/2in of hide plus hair on him. Totally different situation.
Now before the naysayers remind me that this was also a Louis Lamour book, it was based in fact.
Also, the raid by the Indians was led by none other than my wife's g.g.g grandfather,,Quanah Parker...Last Comanch Indian chief. died in 1911
elkman06

[Wildalaska]

Also, the raid by the Indians was led by none other than my wife's g.g.g grandfather,,Quanah Parker...Last Comanch Indian chief. died in 1911

Your my hero!

WildnativeamericanhistoryisoneofmyhobbiesAlaska TM

[jrothWA]

I can use my Original Contender with rifle stock & 45-70 barrel for Alaskan bear?

Getting a 30/30 barrel for sure for deer, maybe consider rechambering for the 30-40 Karg round uses heavier bullet 220gr.

[Kreyzhorse]

The 45-70 would be fine for bears. You can dern near load them to 458 Win specs in the right rifle, but thats not really necessary.

With a strong rifle (like a Ruger No. 1 for example) you should be able to handle a big bear with no issues. As mentioned, you can hot load it to right around a 458 Win and I doubt a bear will have much to say after that.

[Big Bill]

I think that we all agree, the 45/70 will kill any animal in North America.

There are some exotics in Texas, like rhinos - right? I wonder how a 45/70 would do on a rhino?

[Jimbow1965]

Go to Garretts cartridge co.s web site and read of a guy who went to Africa and killed the big 6 with a Marlin 1895 in 45/70. most were killed with one shot with a safety second shot (usual in Africa from what I hear)
I believe, Elephant, hippo, buffalo,lion,......can't remember the rest.
If it will do a hippo I think with the right cartridge and hard cast bullet it will take the big bears. JMHO.
Jimbow.

[Socrates]

There is a difference between kill and stop. Since I know the .475 and .500 JRH, with 420-440 grain bullets will go through 5-6 feet of buffalo, and they work about the same as a .375 H&H, the 45-70, loaded to similar specs is going to do the same.

The problem arises when people try and say the 45-70 is a 'stopper'. It's not. There is a sizeable difference between a 400 and 500 grain bullets on game, just as there is a huge difference between 600 grains and 500 grains.

The main appeal of the 45-70 is the light guns you can carry it in. Likewise, the 458 Win Mag can be had in some lightweight rifles as well. Given the choice, I'd rather be using a soft point designed for dangerous game, weighing 500 grains, then a cast bullet.

[obxned]

In any modern rifle that is as strong as a Marlin, you can load the 45/70 to power levels similar to the early British elephant cartridges. In a 6 1/2 lb rifle, recoil is strong, but when hunting, you won't notice it and you won't shoot that many times. It's the sighting in that will get you!

[Kreyzhorse]

There are some exotics in Texas, like rhinos - right? I wonder how a 45/70 would do on a rhino?

Garrett actually makes a round for elephant, hippo, rhino and cape called Exiter ammo. I'm guessing it will do the job if you do yours.

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/500gr.asp

If the price wasn't so steep, I'd buy a box for the No. 1 just to see how it shot.

[Jimbow1965]

"Owing to this ability, the 45-70 provides a degree of lethality not generally found with other calibers, even ones producing much greater power. This is best evidenced by comparisons with the mighty 458 Winchester Magnum. As conventionally loaded with 500-grain expanding bullets, the 458 is notorious for its relatively shallow penetration. Consequently, when really heavy game is hunted, it is quite common for roundnose solids to be used. Unfortunately, roundnose solids tend to be slow to incapacitate big game. By comparison, the 45-70 can be loaded with blunt non-expanding hard-cast bullets that produce much deeper penetration than the 458 with expanding bullets, and cut a much larger wound channel than the 458 with roundnose solids. Also, the speed of incapacitation is much faster with a blunt non-expanding bullet than with any roundnose solid. Simply stated, proper hard-cast bullets effectively split the difference between under-penetrative expanding bullets and the slow to incapacitate roundnose solids.
The only significant limitation of the 45-70 is the 200-yard trajectory. However, within that range, the 45-70 can anchor the heaviest game on the planet with brutal authority. It can shoot lengthwise through the heaviest game animal including buffalo with large caliber blunt bullets, giving the shooter the advantage of not having to pass on bad-angle shots. If the bull of a lifetime is headed straight away from the shooter and the seat of the pants shot is all that is offered, the shooter can take the shot and know that he will reach the vitals. Generally, when proper hard-cast bullets are used, lengthwise shots result in exit wounds. If confronted by a heavy coastal grizzly hell-bent on annihilation, the 45-70 lever-gun will reliably shoot lengthwise through the bear, while providing the quickest action type available, the lever-action, should a rapid follow-up shot be required. This exceptional combination of action speed and impact effect is impossible to beat when the skirmish is close, and the game is dangerous. And as it turns out, the caliber is also capable of outstanding accuracy, on the order of MOA. If I could own only one big game rifle, it would certainly be a 45-70 lever-gun."(This was from Garretts website)
I agree with the above statement. Go to their website and read of the man who went to Africa. GREAT read. Jimbow1965