Caliber effectiveness - Page 5

RaySendero · May 20, 2019, 07:29 PM

Ruger45LC,

I like the sound of your option "B" !!!

hogwiley · May 21, 2019, 05:03 PM

People tend to overthink handgun stopping power. It's actually pretty simple.

Handgun bullets don't travel fast enough to cause a temporary stretch cavity violent and large enough to significantly damage surrounding tissue, while high powered rifle rounds DO.

So handgun rounds cause damage by direct crushing of tissue. As a result, if average penetration depth is approximately the same, the handgun round which has the largest diameter and frontal mass and creates the larger wound channel for the longest length of its travel through the body, will cause the most damage and therefore be the most effective, all other things being equal. It will damage more blood vessels and nerve tissue and marginally increase the likelihood a "vital" organ or vessel is damaged.

Frontal mass and weight also impact the damage done to bone. A larger diameter and heavier bullet will tend to do more damage to bone than a smaller lighter bullet. Again, were talking at handgun velocities. It can mean the difference between a bullet grazing the skull and instead causing a skull fracture, or a bullet glancing off of or lodging in say a femur bone, and actually breaking a femur, or a pelvis. All of this can make the difference in whether someone is "stopped" or continues on for the immediate future.

This is why I personally prefer .40 and .45 for home defense. For carry ,considerations are different, because concealability and weight matters more, as does ammo capacity(in certain situations).

The .40 is still my preferred round because it still offers nearly the same capacity and size of a 9mm gun while firing a larger and heavier bullet, with a larger diameter hollowpoint cavity resulting in more reliable expansion. The argument that certain bullet designs in 9mm completely closes the gap makes no sense to me, since you could also use that same design in a larger caliber, thereby keeping the gap.

Cops are moving back to 9mm again because heavier weights penetrate into cars a little better, its easier to shoot(especially for women), cheaper, and causes less wear and tear on a gun, and gives more capacity. NOT because its completely equal in all situations to a .40, as some people seem to suggest.

Cosmodragoon · May 21, 2019, 08:28 PM

hogwiley, the usual handgun rounds don't cause much in the way of hydrostatic shock. The temporary stretch cavities will be far less traumatic than what we see with higher velocity rifle rounds. Does that mean we can write off velocity?

Velocity plays an important role in expansion for hollow points. Yes, manufacturers tend to load their hollow points with a target penetration in mind. That doesn't mean that having the velocity doesn't help the mass to smash things. I don't think anyone doubts that .357 magnum tends to be more damaging and therefore more effective than .38 special. Since most of us don't hunt with our CCWs, I think "meat targets" are a valuable resource for how damaging different calibers or loads can be.

Like you, I'm a fan of .40 S&W. I think it is an excellent choice for full-sized handguns where recoil isn't unpleasant. I actually like 165-grain loads where we can see 9mm-like velocities with a bigger and heavier bullet. In smaller guns, I like 9mm just fine. I prefer either to .45 acp overall. The .45 lets you use heavier bullets but the guns are bigger, the capacity is notably lower, and I feel like those big bullets aren't traveling fast enough to get the most out of them.

On the small and light side of things, I really like .327 Federal. The projectiles might only be 85 or 100 grains but they can get an easy 1200 fps from a six-shot pocket gun. For their size, the sectional density is good. Expansion is reliable. They seem to work quite well and they nicely fill a niche.

To make a long story short, there are different factors involved in making a good carry caliber. Getting the right balance for your needs is where it's at.

peterg7 · May 22, 2019, 11:38 AM

After attending a few first aid classes my line of thought is thru and thru increases the leaking, both air and blood.

Is hole size more critical than creating two holes? I think not.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

May 20, 2019, 07:29 PM	#101
RaySendero Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2010 Location: US South Posts: 857	Ruger45LC, I like the sound of your option "B" !!! __________________ *Ray*

May 21, 2019, 05:03 PM	#102
hogwiley Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2011 Posts: 277	People tend to overthink handgun stopping power. It's actually pretty simple. Handgun bullets don't travel fast enough to cause a temporary stretch cavity violent and large enough to significantly damage surrounding tissue, while high powered rifle rounds DO. So handgun rounds cause damage by direct crushing of tissue. As a result, if average penetration depth is approximately the same, the handgun round which has the largest diameter and frontal mass and creates the larger wound channel for the longest length of its travel through the body, will cause the most damage and therefore be the most effective, all other things being equal. It will damage more blood vessels and nerve tissue and marginally increase the likelihood a "vital" organ or vessel is damaged. Frontal mass and weight also impact the damage done to bone. A larger diameter and heavier bullet will tend to do more damage to bone than a smaller lighter bullet. Again, were talking at handgun velocities. It can mean the difference between a bullet grazing the skull and instead causing a skull fracture, or a bullet glancing off of or lodging in say a femur bone, and actually breaking a femur, or a pelvis. All of this can make the difference in whether someone is "stopped" or continues on for the immediate future. This is why I personally prefer .40 and .45 for home defense. For carry ,considerations are different, because concealability and weight matters more, as does ammo capacity(in certain situations). The .40 is still my preferred round because it still offers nearly the same capacity and size of a 9mm gun while firing a larger and heavier bullet, with a larger diameter hollowpoint cavity resulting in more reliable expansion. The argument that certain bullet designs in 9mm completely closes the gap makes no sense to me, since you could also use that same design in a larger caliber, thereby keeping the gap. Cops are moving back to 9mm again because heavier weights penetrate into cars a little better, its easier to shoot(especially for women), cheaper, and causes less wear and tear on a gun, and gives more capacity. NOT because its completely equal in all situations to a .40, as some people seem to suggest. Last edited by hogwiley; May 21, 2019 at 05:10 PM.

May 21, 2019, 08:28 PM	#103
Cosmodragoon Senior Member Join Date: March 18, 2013 Location: Northeastern US Posts: 1,869	hogwiley, the usual handgun rounds don't cause much in the way of hydrostatic shock. The temporary stretch cavities will be far less traumatic than what we see with higher velocity rifle rounds. Does that mean we can write off velocity? Velocity plays an important role in expansion for hollow points. Yes, manufacturers tend to load their hollow points with a target penetration in mind. That doesn't mean that having the velocity doesn't help the mass to smash things. I don't think anyone doubts that .357 magnum tends to be more damaging and therefore more effective than .38 special. Since most of us don't hunt with our CCWs, I think "meat targets" are a valuable resource for how damaging different calibers or loads can be. Like you, I'm a fan of .40 S&W. I think it is an excellent choice for full-sized handguns where recoil isn't unpleasant. I actually like 165-grain loads where we can see 9mm-like velocities with a bigger and heavier bullet. In smaller guns, I like 9mm just fine. I prefer either to .45 acp overall. The .45 lets you use heavier bullets but the guns are bigger, the capacity is notably lower, and I feel like those big bullets aren't traveling fast enough to get the most out of them. On the small and light side of things, I really like .327 Federal. The projectiles might only be 85 or 100 grains but they can get an easy 1200 fps from a six-shot pocket gun. For their size, the sectional density is good. Expansion is reliable. They seem to work quite well and they nicely fill a niche. To make a long story short, there are different factors involved in making a good carry caliber. Getting the right balance for your needs is where it's at.

May 22, 2019, 11:38 AM	#104
peterg7 Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2017 Posts: 316	After attending a few first aid classes my line of thought is thru and thru increases the leaking, both air and blood. Is hole size more critical than creating two holes? I think not. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk