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Old April 30, 2018, 05:34 PM   #26
Model12Win
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Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
I have recently seen the new Ruger 9mm carbine in action. It is light and trivial recoil. Shotguns are not the way to go - let's skip the god of thunder's hammer cliches.

I had a coworker who could never understand why his frail elderly wife wouldn't go shoot the 12 gauge pistol grip he bought for her defense. He was an idiot. There was a recent show with Michael Bane and Gabe Suarez shooting various pistol grip, Shockwave type and fully stocked shotguns. See if it is online and then rethink a shotgun.

Pumps are notorious for malfunctions if short stroked, etc. - esp. with folks with little practice. The next shot is a bear if not held properly.

A 10/22 she could shoot would be better than a shotgun that she can't.
+1

Some scoff at the notion, but a BX-25 equipped 10/22 loaded with quality CCI loads would be NO FUN to face down and has nearly 0 recoil and low noise. Would be effective and even fun for her to train with. A 9mm carbine might also be an even better choice if she can handle it. The Beretta Cx4 Storm is a proven reliable gun in service with a surprising number of Police departments and similar entities around the world. The new Ruger 9mm carbine also shows promise.
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Old April 30, 2018, 08:24 PM   #27
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The Keltec Sub 2000 is also a wonderful little carbine.
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Old May 1, 2018, 07:01 AM   #28
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Keltec and Hi Point carbines have awfully beefy springs. Might be difficult for her to operate.

I haven't handled the Ruger, so I don't know if it's any better.
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Old May 1, 2018, 08:06 AM   #29
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Thoughts?
Mace/Pepper Spray. Good locks, a dog and 911 on speed dial.

If she's old and in poor health, odds are, giving her a gun she is not familiar with or may not even be capable of handling safely, is not the answer.
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Old May 1, 2018, 08:16 AM   #30
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Keltec and Hi Point carbines have awfully beefy springs. Might be difficult for her to operate.

I haven't handled the Ruger, so I don't know if it's any better.
That is true, and for that reason, I would be hesitant to suggest one to someone who is weakened or frail. The Ruger is easier to rack.

A panic alarm around the neck, good locks and a dog is a better suggestion for an elderly person who won't invest the time to practice and become proficient.
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Old May 1, 2018, 09:15 AM   #31
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Reading this thread, I wonder how many folks who recommend a pump shotgun in 12 gauge have taken a self-defense course with that sort of gun that requires movement and follow-up shots. Or shot a tactical type match with one. Or a FOF exercise that encompassed movement, more than one shot, holding the gun while manipulating other things.

I know we aren't considering handguns here but sometimes the shotgun recommendation is more a cliche driven suggestion than a practical one.

Watching folks jam up a pump from a stroking error (not that I would ever do that under stress makes me not sanguine about the suggestion.
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Old May 1, 2018, 10:22 AM   #32
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Reading this thread, I wonder how many folks who recommend a pump shotgun in 12 gauge have taken a self-defense course with that sort of gun that requires movement and follow-up shots. Or shot a tactical type match with one. Or a FOF exercise that encompassed movement, more than one shot, holding the gun while manipulating other things.

I know we aren't considering handguns here but sometimes the shotgun recommendation is more a cliche driven suggestion than a practical one.

Watching folks jam up a pump from a stroking error (not that I would ever do that under stress makes me not sanguine about the suggestion.
I don't wonder at all. It is very few. I have taught shotgun to Marines from Quantico, the guys who train the Marines who guard the embassies with M4s. I placed 14th and made the shoot-off at the IPSC Shotgun Championship and compete regularly with a shotgun. I also work with, and train several local LEs on firearms. I was arrested 22 times during High Risk Felony stop training last week. The shotgun is usually the last weapon system I will recommend to a skilled shooter for HD, certainly a last resort for the novice.

Most highly skilled multi-platform shooters suggest the AR15 platform by a pretty decent margin where concealment of the weapon is not an issue. With the surge in PCCs, that is a the space many are starting to suggest as well. After that, it becomes one of evaluating strength, proficiency, environment. I have had folks from 6 to 86 on the AR15 platform do extremely well with it, better than any other platform. Only downside is noise levels inside the house.
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Old May 1, 2018, 11:47 AM   #33
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I don't wonder at all. It is very few. I have taught shotgun to Marines from Quantico, the guys who train the Marines who guard the embassies with M4s. I placed 14th and made the shoot-off at the IPSC Shotgun Championship and compete regularly with a shotgun. I also work with, and train several local LEs on firearms. I was arrested 22 times during High Risk Felony stop training last week. The shotgun is usually the last weapon system I will recommend to a skilled shooter for HD, certainly a last resort for the novice.

Most highly skilled multi-platform shooters suggest the AR15 platform by a pretty decent margin where concealment of the weapon is not an issue. With the surge in PCCs, that is a the space many are starting to suggest as well. After that, it becomes one of evaluating strength, proficiency, environment. I have had folks from 6 to 86 on the AR15 platform do extremely well with it, better than any other platform. Only downside is noise levels inside the house.
Noise is the big issue with the AR inside a home, but I think that's where the 9mm or other pistol caliber AR's are going to become very popular, very quick, especially when you can have a pistol brace on an AR pistol with a 7 inch barrel.

A 7 inch 9mm AR is super fast to swing around and get onto a second target, much faster than a 16 inch Hi Point, Sub 2000, Ruger PC9, Cx4, etc. Those manufacturers need to get on the ball and start offering factory braced pistol version of their carbines or their gonna lose money.

As for the shotgun, if one connects with the target and doesn't dork up the pumping, it's still the most effective short range gun available. The problem is that shotguns can be unwieldy for small/old/weak people, high recoil, low capacity, more susceptible to improper operation causing malfunctions... unless you are an expert a lot can go wrong with a pump action shotgun and semi-auto shotguns can be unreliable.

I would say if a semi auto is reliable, one is better off with that, but even then, the other issues that plague shotguns as home defense guns for unskilled people still remain.

I only have one shotgun, it's an over/under, I get two shots with it before I have to go to something else and personally, I'd rather buy rifles or handguns that hold more rounds and are things I can test handloads with at the range for entertainment.

Shotguns are both niche and cliche guns for home defense. I think too much of the mentality surrounding shotguns comes from movies where people getting shot with a shotgun magically fly backwards because it's so powerful...
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Old May 2, 2018, 03:05 AM   #34
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I'm surprised to hear this is happening in NC. Must she have a permit to own a pistol?
A permit is needed to purchase a handgun.
(I was curious about that also- so I googled it)

https://durhamso.permitium.com/

" It is within the Sheriff's discretion to deny or approve pistol purchase permits."

Sounds like a hold over from the old days (Jim Crow law)...
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Old May 2, 2018, 05:58 AM   #35
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Shotguns are both niche and cliche guns for home defense. I think too much of the mentality surrounding shotguns comes from movies where people getting shot with a shotgun magically fly backwards because it's so powerful...
Probably but round for round, it is hard to beat the power of a shot of 12 Gauge 00 Buckshot
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Old May 2, 2018, 06:38 AM   #36
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WHY was she turned down for her permit?
I just read the NC firearms laws.
http://www.ncdoj.gov/getdoc/32344299...-gun-Laws.aspx
It might help if the OP took a look at pp 7/8 and outlined what the impediment was to owning a handgun.
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Old May 2, 2018, 12:21 PM   #37
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Why not a M1 carbine???

Butt-stock ouch hold two fifteen count magazines, easy to manipulate.

Soft-nose / HP ammo, is more common. easy recoil.
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Old May 2, 2018, 02:31 PM   #38
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$1000 carbines, pistol-grip shotguns, quasi-legal stocks on pistols- do you guys think before you write?
An ill 67 year old woman is probably not going to be able to use or buy any of those.
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Old May 2, 2018, 05:21 PM   #39
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Take her to a gun store with a range and rental guns and let a professional help her chose what she wants, but if she doesn't have a dog I like the suggestion.

Don't get hung up on the word "purchase". NC law requires the permit "before purchasing or receiving." http://www.ncdoj.gov/getdoc/32344299...-gun-Laws.aspx
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Old May 2, 2018, 06:03 PM   #40
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I think it is a good point to know why she was refused a handgun permit.

If the OP doesn't want to share (and I can understand that), let's stop throwing out all kinds of guns that probably haven't been tested for their ergonomics with older women.
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Old May 2, 2018, 08:34 PM   #41
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The new Ruger pistol caliber carbine, especially with the Glock adapter and a 33 round mag of 9mm should be worth a serious look
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Old May 2, 2018, 08:48 PM   #42
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...good point to know why she was refused a handgun permit.
+1 ... again
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Old May 3, 2018, 08:19 AM   #43
Glenn E. Meyer
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So, I say - let's stop throwing out guns and we get a suggestion already made.

Sigh.

Let's wait until we get some clarification as we've mentioned every reasonable gun.
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Old May 3, 2018, 05:52 PM   #44
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The lady is in poor health and we don't know what she is or is not able to do. Someone needs to take some of the suggested guns (whether owned or borrowed) to the lady and she if she can operate them by herself. My son-in-law's father saw a Taurus PT111 my son-in-law had recently bought and said he would like to buy one for himself. However, he is 81 with arthritis and he was unable to move the slide enough operate the pistol. He also cannot operate a revolver (he has several).
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Old May 3, 2018, 07:50 PM   #45
mehavey
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Look troops, I'm not going to recommend any weapon (much less supply one) to
someone who has been denied... w/o having any idea of why she was denied.

If the OP will hint at that disqualifier, it might greatly assist in running this topic to ground.
http://www.ncdoj.gov/getdoc/32344299...n-Laws.aspx(pp 7/8 again)
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Old May 3, 2018, 08:59 PM   #46
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Yeah, I'm going to call this and close it. If the OP wants to PM me with more info, we can reopen it.
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