I Almost Had To Shoot Someone

[Theron D. Patron]

I was leaving my condo to go grab a bite to eat. While crossing the street there was a guy cussing and talking to himself. I was hoping to get across the street before the light changed however, I got caught there with the guy. He asked me if I had any money, when I replied no so he says well I got this knife.

I stood there as he reached down and pulled up his right pants leg and grabbed a knife. I pulled my G35 and started telling him to drop the knife. He told me that he needed it for the young boys. I forgot to say that this guy is homeless. He then turned and walked away telling me how he would have kicked my butt if I did not have that gun. I thought that maybe I should have prone him out and called the police because he might pull that knife on someone else.

I called the police, and they looked for him. They told me that they where glad I had my gun and that I did not have to shoot him.

I am a member with USCCA, and let them know what happened.

So as I hope most of you know to carry always and hope you never need to use it and that your weapon is not doing you any good in the sock draw or closet at home.

Letting him walk and calling the police was a good thing, I was told from a very good instructor that holding someone at gun point can be very dangerous because what if they do not comply with my commands?

I have been carrying for a lot of years and you never know when you will be selected to be a victim so carry your gun.

Tom Givens, has about 66 students who have had to shoot someone and all of them have won except three. All of these students where killed in street robberies and all had three things in common. Training, weapons permits and did not have a gun on that day.

[johnwilliamson062]

I was told from a very good instructor that holding someone at gun point can be very dangerous because what if they do not comply with my commands?

Depending on the laws in your area and exact circumstance I believe detaining someone in such a manner may also open you up to kidnapping charges(criminal) and false imprisonment(civil). Detention is almost never a good idea.

[Art Eatman]

"While crossing the street there was a guy cussing and talking to himself."

Hmm. Stop? Back up? Turn away and cross elsewhere? Seems to me that aberrant behavior should be avoided.

[David R]

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[Theron D. Patron]

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[jmhyer]

You did well. Glad you are ok.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

1. In general, it may not be wise to post your actions as they are discoverable and if not wise, may come back to haunt you.

2. Folks sometimes post such items as they want to receive praise as compared to an honest critique. So take these comments in that light.

I was leaving my condo to go grab a bite to eat. While crossing the street there was a guy cussing and talking to himself. I was hoping to get across the street before the light changed however, I got caught there with the guy. He asked me if I had any money, when I replied no so he says well I got this knife.

A sensible person who had some legitimate training would have retreated with alacrity. You could have waited to feed yourself.

I stood there [You stood there?, Again, move, move, move!] as he reached down and pulled up his right pants leg and grabbed a knife. I pulled my G35 and started telling him to drop the knife. He told me that he needed it for the young boys.

In a Street and Vehicles Tactics class and through quite a few FOF instances run by the top guys, this would have been seen as quite foolish. It is a male thing in part to try to achieve dominance. We see folks pulling their gun and trying to achieve dominance. They even approach the opponent to do this. Well, while you are flapping your gums and not increasing distance, your opponent can rush you and do evil to you to. This was a fail.

I forgot to say that this guy is homeless. He then turned and walked away telling me how he would have kicked my butt if I did not have that gun. I thought that maybe I should have prone him out [How are you going to do that? If he refused, what legal right to you have to take physical action.[and called the police because he might pull that knife on someone else. [With no witnesses, he might claim that you started the altercation by telling him to get out of there and he felt the need to protect himself. ]

I called the police, and they looked for him. They told me that they where glad I had my gun and that I did not have to shoot him.

I am a member with USCCA, and let them know what happened.

So as I hope most of you know to carry always and hope you never need to use it and that your weapon is not doing you any good in the sock draw or closet at home. Thanks, we don't need folks to get preachy. Anyone with significant training knows this.

Letting him walk and calling the police was a good thing, I was told from a very good instructor that holding someone at gun point can be very dangerous because what if they do not comply with my commands?

That's right and your very good instructor would have said that you blew it by letting the interaction get this far. You had NO right to detain him.

I have been carrying for a lot of years and you never know when you will be selected to be a victim so carry your gun.

Tom Givens, has about 66 students who have had to shoot someone and all of them have won except three. All of these students where killed in street robberies and all had three things in common. Training, weapons permits and did not have a gun on that day.

Have you had a class from Givens? I don't think he would approve of your actions.

To conclude, it is good that you weren't harmed and didn't harm someone. However, you need to rethink your actions.

[OldMarksman]

I thought that maybe I should have prone him out and called the police because he might pull that knife on someone else.

Never even consider it.

[lunger]

Thanks, we don't need folks to get preachy.

Does that include staff?

[OldMarksman]

Glenn nailed it.

[James K]

Do those "experts" who conduct self-defense classes offer to pay YOUR legal fees if YOU are arrested? Do they offer to go to jail in YOUR place? Nope. But they will spout advice all day, posturing for their classes on how to shoot people and get away with it.

You have the right to defend yourself, but when you exercise that right, and kill or seriously injure someone, there are very serious consequences; if you are not willing to accept those consequences, leave the gun at home.

Note: Anyone who thinks I am being "preachy" has never been arrested, spent time in jail, bankrupted his family to pay for a bond (if he could get bond), lost his job when arrested, etc.

Jim

[Don P]

Posts 3, 8, 9, 11, 12 right on the money and all by staff. Hum maybe they are onto something. As Mas instructs at his MAG 40 class retreat when it can be done safely. You were aware of your surroundings hearing this guy talking to himself so avoidance was possible on your part. Post 12 should open the eyes of those who have not had some form of quality training with regards to use of deadly force.

[hdwhit]

Early in my working career, I had to take files between buildings in downtown Dallas. At the time, Dallas had a significant population of homeless people; some of whom were unbalanced or aggressive or both.

The sheer number of homeless limited how far out of my way I could go to avoid the unbalanced and aggressive ones since it simply moved me into the territory of another unbalanced or aggressive person.

This all pre-dated the widespread availability of concealed carry in Texas, so that was never an option.

My solution was to get a ratty, ex-French Foreign Legion topcoat and wear it as I commuted between buildings while mumbling to myself just loudly enough to make it clear what I was saying was incoherent. A guy in a slacks, starched white button-down oxford shirt and tie in a torn ex-military topcoat sweating profusely and muttering about the dark forces of finite elements served me well. I guess the unbalanced and aggressive homeless people though I was more unbalanced than they were and they left me alone.

You "win" every confrontation you avoid, no matter how it is done.

[Theron D. Patron]

I did not post looking for praise, I just wanted to share. I now know somethings that I did not and appreciate the goo feed back.

We train and practice for that bad day however when this went down it happens so fast is there anyone can say that they would not have made a mistake or two?

[Theron D. Patron]

Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer

1. In general, it may not be wise to post your actions as they are discoverable and if not wise, may come back to haunt you.

2. Folks sometimes post such items as they want to receive praise as compared to an honest critique. So take these comments in that light.




Have you had a class from Givens? I don't think he would approve of your actions.

To conclude, it is good that you weren't harmed and didn't harm someone. However, you need to rethink your actions.

No, I would like to. understand I did not post for praise I was just sharing and appreciate the positive feed back.

[lunger]

"When your best defense is a quick, hard offense, the lessons learned here may prove invaluable. This is a "no holds barred" training area." From the title of this section.

It is easy to Monday morning quarterback . None of us know exactly what we will do in a given situation. We don,t know his physical condition. Maybe he turns to retreat and gets stabbed in the back. Even with the best training mistakes can be made and we have to deal with the consequences.

The OP survived a bad situation and broke no laws. He also got law enforcement involved. I did not feel he was looking for praise or preaching.He merely shared his experience.Which seems to fit the premise of this forum, as do your critiques.

Now I sound like I'm preaching.

[Tactical Jackalope]

lol, from one guy from Miami Florida to another, it's just a regular day for us.

I have a dozen of these instances. Gotta love our city!



Also, everything Glenn Meyer said.

[Siggy-06]

Yep, Florida 101...

[nanney1]

Hmmm... if I ever have a similar incident, I don't think I'll post any details.

[stephen426]

Another Miami resident here. Glad you weren't harmed and glad you did not have to use your gun. What part of town were you in when this happened?

[raimius]

Glenn,
You are certainly going with the "hard offense" part!

The OP appears to have violated zero laws and worked with law enforcement to further resolve the issue. That seems appropriate to me. I'm no lawyer, but if he posted a similar description of events here to what he told local law enforcement, that should not add much in the way of legal jeopardy. (Am I incorrect on this?)

Could a more aggressive avoidance strategy have helped? Probably.
Should he have incorporated building space against a knife-armed opponent into his actions? YES!

To the OP, I appreciate the data point.

[hdwhit]

Glenn E. Meyer wrote:
1. In general, it may not be wise to post your actions as they are discoverable and if not wise, may come back to haunt you.

Yep.

I was once one of two technical experts on a trial team in a civil case. The "cyber team" for the same case had five experts. The attorney I was working with had had an internet archiving service download the entire digital history of the firm on the other side of the dispute.

So, every time you post something like "I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six", it is getting archived and if other side wants to know it bad enough to pay for it, they can unearth it and present it in court in circumstances that will be the least favorable for you.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

It's all risk. There is no benefit about discussing your use of force on the Internet. Who knows how a DA, judge or jury will interpret it.

You may think you got an 'attaboy' from the net or the police. However, your past actions might make you look bad. Why risk it?

The OP posted actions that might look like he contemplated playing policeman - I wanted to prone him out - for instance.

As I said, that would not have been wise. So in another incident - this might be an indication of a mindset. It is debatable whether this could be admitted. But it could be.

[OldMarksman]

The OP appears to have violated zero laws and worked with law enforcement to further resolve the issue.

The OP's description of events appeared to support a conclusion that he broke no laws.

That does not mean that he acted safely--he might well have been stabbed and killed or seriously injured.

While he says he "got caught there with this guy", moving away quickly at the first sign of unpleasantness would have been a lot more prudent.

Standing while someone draws a knife and then trying to draw a gun is not the best way to remain unhurt.

In terms of legal risk, one should never assume that one's own account of events will be seen as truthful, and one should never assume that eyewitness testimony, should there be any, will accurately describe what actually happened. Witnesses might well have believed that the OP drew first.

...if he posted a similar description of events here to what he told local law enforcement, that should not add much in the way of legal jeopardy. (Am I incorrect on this?)While he did not so act, his statement that he considered committing an unlawful act ("I thought that maybe I should have proned him out and called the police because he might pull that knife on someone else) might well have weakened his contention that he was innocent by indicating state of mind.

And, of course, the existence of the posting could come up, should a later case with some ambiguity arise.

Lessons learned:

1. Avoid "getting caught there" with a possibly dangerous person
2. Do NOT stand and draw after someone has drawn a knife; MOVE
3. Do not put an account of the event into a public forum where it will endure forever.

And, of course, do not toy with the idea of "proning someone out" because of what he might do later to someone else.

[Sharkbite]

his statement that he considered committing an unlawful act ("I thought that maybe I should have proned him out and called the police because he might pull that knife on someone else)

Forgetting the tactical implications of holding someone at gun point, how would that act have been illegal? All the states im aware of have a provision for making a “citizens arrest”. If the suspect in this case threatened the OP with a deadly weapon (the knife), then the OP would have been LEGALLY able to detain the susp.

Again, im not saying that would have been the prudent thing to do.