|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Search | Today's Posts | Mark Forums Read |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
May 21, 2019, 03:08 PM | #26 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 11, 2005
Posts: 3,840
|
I think one of the biggest challenges with using small guns is the decreased sight radius. It is much harder to make precise shots especially since most of the sights are usually meant for much closer ranges. If you have nice small fiber optic sights, it may help, but longer sight radius makes a big difference. If you have a tiny gun with groove only, good luck hitting anything consistently.
As for effective energy, 100 yards isn't that far for a pistol round. According to gundata.org American Eagle drops from 1120 fps at the muzzle to 959 fps at 100 yards for a loss of 14.375%. The energy drops from 345 to 253 lb-ft. Bullet drop was 12.03" for that given round. The energy at 253 lb-ft is enough to incapacitate someone. How fast will it incapacitate someone? That depends on where they get hit. Is a sub-compact pistol ideal to engage someone 100 yards away? Not really. If push comes to shove and you need to defend yourself, you do what you have to do with what you have to do.
__________________
The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency! |
May 21, 2019, 03:21 PM | #27 | |
member
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 8,462
|
Quote:
As to accuracy, with a 6” A-zone, it seems a pistol/shooter that will hold 12” at 100yds (about 3” at 25yds) should give you about 50/50 odds of landing an A-zone hit if you are consistent in your application and skill. So your chances that one out of three shots ends up in the A-zone would be fairly respectable. |
|
May 22, 2019, 07:53 AM | #28 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 12, 2009
Location: Athens, Georgia
Posts: 2,525
|
I imagine that all of the popular service cartridges would be capable of 12" of penetration in gel at 100 yards so getting the hits would be the issue.
There was an incident in 2012 where an armed citizen got four hits with a .357 on a man armed with a rifle. The man with the rifle had murdered two of his neighbors and was shooting at a police officer when the citizen engaged him at fifty yards and stopped the bad guy. There are incidents where police and MPs successfully engaged armed attackers at longer ranges than fifty yards using their service handguns. An off duty officer in Athens GA engaged a robber who had just shot a security guard. The officer used an Airweight and got a hit across the parking lot that wounded the robber. The robber wasn't stopped but the wound led to his capture in a few hours. I don't remember what the distance was but I do remember it being far greater than the seven yards that is mentioned as the average gun fight distance. Making a hit with his Airweight at long range while the robber was shooting at him with a full sized 1911 impressed me. None of that answers the OP's question but it seems like the folks I have read about getting stops at distances greater than 40 yards were all using duty sized weapons. |
May 22, 2019, 08:00 AM | #29 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 9, 2006
Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania.
Posts: 5,473
|
Five consecutive shots from an FN FiveSeven at 100 yards. See my post #27 in the FN FiveSeven thread. (For some reason I get an error message when I try to repost the photo into this thread,)
https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...=571522&page=2
__________________
“Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ... NRA Life Member |
May 23, 2019, 12:04 PM | #30 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 13, 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 12,453
|
"...able to deliver A or B zone hits..." That's more about the shooter than the firearm. A .25 ACP FMJ will go right through a 2 x 4 at 100 yards though. Assuming you can hit it. The 4" side being 3.75" not 4". I recall it being a Baby Browning. It wasn't recently or by me.
__________________
Spelling and grammar count! |
May 25, 2019, 01:34 PM | #31 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 26, 2016
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 960
|
I would say within the confines of the question that the 357 SIG would be the "BEST"
Here is a link you can compare the common bullets and their trajectories etc: https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammuniti...n/default.aspx |
May 25, 2019, 03:05 PM | #32 | |
Staff
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,453
|
Quote:
|
|
May 25, 2019, 05:55 PM | #33 |
Staff
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,756
|
Rough cut they are still 2x4". Take 1/4" off each side, giving the smooth surface usually desired, you're down to 3.5x1.5" .
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better. |
May 25, 2019, 06:01 PM | #34 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 22, 2016
Posts: 3,883
|
I've shot my Glock 27 at 20 yards standing and that's about as far as I can be effective with it. Any further and I need to be rested. Have tried 50 yards with it sitting and rested and it's not a guarantee, maybe 33 to 50 percent of the time I hit.
I'd have to say a revolver, probably a 3 inch barrel with adj. sights and it has to have a light SA trigger and be no larger than .38 in caliber. I have a 2 inch snub .38 Armscor/Rock Island and I was doing well with it standing at 50y. Give me a better revolver and a 3 inch barrel and I can probably do 100y 3 out of 4 shots.
__________________
"We always think there's gonna be more time... then it runs out."
|
May 25, 2019, 11:14 PM | #35 |
member
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 8,462
|
Eh, I’ve shot my Glock 26 standing out to 100yds with no trouble. It wasn’t 100% hits; but you wouldn’t have a lot of time to think “What is that idiot doing?”
At the same time I’ve missed a head shot on a target at contact distance with a 642. Not just “didn’t hit head” but “missed entire target after pressed the muzzle against desired target area.” 99.99% of my trigger time was with single-action semi-autos and given a double-action, I ganked the trigger. |
May 25, 2019, 11:31 PM | #36 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 5, 2010
Location: McMurdo Sound Texas
Posts: 4,322
|
I’m with Aguila Blanca. With present company excepted , I don’t think there are many people that could hit a Pickup truck at 100 yards in 3 shots.
After watching people shoot at several ranges most of the general public probably couldn’t hit a pickup truck at 25 yards.
__________________
Cave illos in guns et backhoes |
May 26, 2019, 01:06 PM | #37 |
Staff
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,756
|
I will agree that "most people" aren't great shots. But, why does it matter what "most people" can, or can't do??
Most people don't shoot my guns, I shoot my guns, and if I can do something most people can't, then yay for me... Doesn't mean most people are any less, just means I have a skill they don't.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better. |
May 27, 2019, 06:21 AM | #38 |
member
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 8,462
|
I think most people just lack the opportunity to try it so of course, they don’t really develop any skill in that area. At my peak, I was maybe a B-class shooter and I’m probably more of a C-class now. It is still doable for me though it would require some concentration on my part and the short sight radius would be an issue since I don’t get much opportunity to do it myself these days. My point being it doesn’t require any special skill so much as it requires the facilities to try it - outside of a private range, that can be tough to find.
|
May 27, 2019, 08:58 AM | #39 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 28, 2019
Posts: 108
|
A .308 Win will make the shot every time, and it'll fill your big game tags.
A handgun is a close range weapon. It wise to use the right tool for specific jobs. |
May 27, 2019, 02:05 PM | #40 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 22, 2016
Posts: 3,883
|
A 2 pound pistol is a lot easier to carry than an 8 pound rifle.
__________________
"We always think there's gonna be more time... then it runs out."
|
May 31, 2019, 12:02 AM | #41 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 13, 2002
Posts: 1,053
|
I regularly shoot my .45 at 100. Usually causing palpitations to the range Officer.
I’m using an old Wilson Master Grade .45. (1989 vintage). I’m not sure about other calibers but, this quote made me realize a .45 is still pretty formidable at 100 yards. “The military actually tested penetration into white pine during the early days (230gr. FMJ, 825fps at muzzle). It would still penetrate 4" or so at 250 yards.” Other than long barreled revolvers, the only other “carry” gun I’ve tried shooting at 100 is an HKP7M8. That gun is phenomenally accurate. Any gun much smaller than that would be really difficult for me to shoot at 100. Not to mention, both the Wilson and the HK have spectacular triggers. Most carry guns A: just aren’t very good for a full grip. B: a really short sight radius and C: crappy triggers. Last edited by Sgt127; May 31, 2019 at 12:25 AM. |
May 31, 2019, 07:47 AM | #42 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 9, 1998
Location: Ohio USA
Posts: 8,563
|
Quote:
|
|
May 31, 2019, 05:34 PM | #43 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 30, 2012
Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Posts: 1,748
|
22 LR !
Box says warning range 1.5 miles . But it all mostly depends on how well you can shoot . A miss is as good as a mile ! |
May 31, 2019, 06:03 PM | #44 |
Staff
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,756
|
What is the smallest handgun that is still effective at 100m?
let me put it a different way, what is the smallest handgun YOU can make hits with at 100m?? Because if the gun has the necessary accuracy, and fires a round that meets your gel penetration requirements, if YOU aren't up to making the shot, then it really doesn't matter, does it?? Given time to practice and learn the gun and ammo, it can be done with a lot of pistols. Even some pocket guns. Small guns make it more difficult, but that's a matter of degree. Like shooting long range with a blackpowder round, it can be done, but requires a level of skill different from other kinds of shooting.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better. |
June 15, 2019, 07:38 AM | #45 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 18, 2013
Location: Chicago suburbs
Posts: 662
|
Years ago, I read a gun magazine article (wish I could find it) where they fired a bunch of pocket and mouse guns at 100 yards, from NAA minis up to Smith j frames. The .38 snubs were the most accurate, but that was mostly attributed to having more visible sights.
__________________
At the young age of five, a bear told me that I was the only person who could prevent forest fires. Why I was chosen, I'll never know. |
June 15, 2019, 07:55 AM | #46 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 21, 2013
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 1,695
|
We have a 25/50/75/100/200 meter cowboy action steel silhouette range at my club and I am comfortable out to 50 meters. I've tried 75m and I do occasionally ping the Ram but I can't spot my missed shots in the berm, therefore I call this an unsafe situation for me. I shoot my scoped 12" 460 mag out to 200m but that is off a rest and this is not really comparing apples to apples. No way would I proficiently be able to shoot a typical handgun offhand at 100m
__________________
"To be old an wise you must have been young and stupid" |
June 17, 2019, 03:58 PM | #47 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 6, 2009
Posts: 1,344
|
Any firearm employed against someone at 100m (108+ yards) isn't considered as a self defense use because the legal system will assume that you are far enough away from the threat to escape and evade rather than use deadly force to end the threat. Therefore, any use of a pistol with the capability to wound/kill a human at that range is going to be viewed legally as attempted murder.
More importantly, there probably isn't 1 pistol shooter in 100,000 who can accurately engage a threat at 100m with a standard SD type pistol so considering a specific type / caliber of pistol for use at that range for SD is not only illegal but folly. |
June 17, 2019, 07:27 PM | #48 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 5, 2010
Location: McMurdo Sound Texas
Posts: 4,322
|
The ballistics of a typical 5" barrel in a semi-auto add up to about a 10 MOA. And that doesn't include the shooter, who probably isn't anywhere near that good at 100 yards. Not to mention that most handgun rounds are *far* from a Match or precision ELR round.
My guess is overall, a 'very good' shooter and handgun would be lucky to achieve 10" group at 100 yards. But probably not.
__________________
Cave illos in guns et backhoes |
June 18, 2019, 04:11 AM | #49 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,468
|
could you define effective? Do you mean whether your five dollar bullet and thousand dollar gun can knock an opponent down as effectively as a 9mm combat round at 50 feet?
At 100 yards I am going to say that no round that lacks the magnum designation could be a good round to be shooting at live meat out that far. You won't get two hits at that range unless you are performing a covert assassination. My suggestion for a reliable round at 100 yards is a .44 magnum and nothing smaller. IF you manage to get a single round into a body at long distance you want it to be the most powerful round that you can use. I know a goose hunter that drops gees almost out to that distance. He's too smart to think that he could drop a deer with a shotgun at that distance, no matter what load he is using.
__________________
None. |
June 18, 2019, 07:47 AM | #50 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 25, 2017
Location: Lawnguyland, NY
Posts: 169
|
My Rock Island 1911 in .22 TCM is suppose to be a flat shooter ( whatever the hell that means - LOL ) --- the next time I do a day trip to the local range -- using my 8" X 11" targets --- at 100 yrds I'll take a few shots on center & a few at the top edge of the paper --- if I hit ( see ) anything --- I'm happy
P/S -- My next purchase will / might be either a SCCY CPX-2 or a Bersa TPR9C in 9MM -- if they cant hit the target --- I'll throw them
__________________
NRA Instructor / RSO & NRA Life Member / S.A.F.E. Armorer / 03-FFL / Moist Nugget gun nut / Ammosexual / COR of a Venturing Crew / And a right wing Republican Jew with guns Μολών Λaβέ
Last edited by Ricekila; June 18, 2019 at 08:00 AM. |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|