Minimum cartridge trend? - Page 2

Sarge · November 14, 2016, 09:06 AM

I hunted with handguns for years, which has some parallels to bowhunting. Tiny rifles offer a distance advantage but still require fine precision- generally slipping one through the ribs directly into the heart. Bottom line- you will (or should) pass shots you could easily make with a serious hunting rig.

If I am dead serious about getting meat or killing a trophy, I'll take my old Winchester 30-06 with the Nikon BDC on it. That puppy will mash them flat to 300 yards with a hit anywhere in the shoulder or neck.

ZeroJunk · November 14, 2016, 07:47 PM

Probably 75% of all the hunting I have ever done was with a bow. That includes 20 plus years of bow hunting elk in the Bob Marshall Wilderness.
Most of the trophies (to me anyway) I have killed were with a bow or muzzle loader.

What that has to do with using a 22 caliber for deer is unclear to me.

bamaranger · November 15, 2016, 01:21 AM

Without a doubt, the popularity of the AR, and the various cartridges that can fit through the AR15 based rifles, are driving that segment of the issue. Folks have acquired an AR.....now what do you do with it?

The .243 has been around long enough now, and is mostly understood by the hunting community regards the need for appropriate slugs, that it has a following much broader than its original users, which I agree, was mostly those considered recoil sensitive.

People may not be smarter, but there may be some truth in the idea that hunters, are to some extent, more knowledgeable than they were 50 yrs ago. I listened to my elders in the 1960-70's condemn the .243 as a deer cartridge, and extol the '06 with heavy bullets as a tremendous killer. Many of these fellows had hunted only their home state with very controlled harvest limits. They could hunt a lifetime and kill perhaps two dozen deer, with the same rifle/cartridge their Dad used, ie, not a very broad experience base. I repeated the mantra............it was all I knew.

But I moved and began to hunt states where harvest limits were more lenient, bowhunted and hunted with muzzleloaders, and began to realize that the old timers were both right and wrong. They just didn't know it. Yes, a .30/180RN RN is indeed grim death on a 150 lb whitetail, but so was a broadhead, a roundball, and a measly 100 gr .243, all when applied correctly.

Surely, if I could figure that out, so could a lot of other folks.

Gunplummer · November 15, 2016, 05:09 AM

"All when applied correctly". There you have it. When the compound bow came in, there were wounded deer running all over the place. Mostly the result of taking ridicules shots. Today, not so much (Around here anyway). As with lighter bore rifles, people did not really know the capability of their equipment. Back when big woods rifle hunting for deer was king in PA, there was a LOT of hit deer running around. Most of that could be attributed to .30 caliber or larger bullets. Anybody that thinks some cartridges are under powered are never able never explain that.

shootbrownelk · November 15, 2016, 07:09 AM

I have to take exception to the comment made about Elmer Keith being a fan of miniscule calibers. He was a huge fan of big bore hunting rifles. He once said that the perfect deer rifle caliber started at .33. He derided Jack O'Connor for advocating a .270 for big game. He said that O'Connor's beloved .270 " Is a Damned adequate Coyote rifle" Of course, the bullets available back in the 40's and 50's left a lot to be desired, and that had a lot to do with it.

Jack O'Conner · November 15, 2016, 07:36 AM

Used to be that everyone criticized the .243 for weak blood trails. But with a good bonded bullet this is no longer the case. These Premium bullets have significantly increased the penetration for this popular cartridge.

Jack

ZeroJunk · November 15, 2016, 07:44 AM

Well, if they will give you some extra prime season days for a 22 caliber I will certainly use one. Otherwise I will use something bigger.

All the anecdotal evidence and opinion will never alter the fact that physics is not on your side.

treg · November 15, 2016, 01:56 PM

Putting the bullet into the boiler room is key for killing deer with any cartridge.

It's when the boiler room is on the other end of the deer that the extra horsepower of the .30-06 / .308 class and up comes in handy.

Gunplummer · November 16, 2016, 05:12 AM

I have to wonder where some of you people actually hit the deer. The last time I had to use a blood trail, I just plain screwed up the shot. It was a 160 Grain bullet. I eventually got him, but doubt if I would have without snow. If I need a blood trail, I screwed up the shot. I strongly suspect that people taking 300+ yard shots leave dead deer laying because there is no blood trail. The reason that there is no blood trail is that they are looking at the wrong place. Even at short range, things look different when you walk 80 yards towards the last place you saw the deer.

HiBC · November 16, 2016, 02:47 PM

IMO,it comes down to results.What is true.
I simply have zero experience with "minor caliber" big game hunting.

Not all deer are the same.There are 80 to 100 lb bucks,and thereare 300 lb bucks. Its not "one size fits all" There are tree stand deer hunts,permanent blind deer hunts,and rimrock deer hunts,shots from 10 yds to 400,and beyond.

Might an Inuit or Athabaskan Alaskan native harvest everything ,incuding moose,with a .223? Or a 30-30? I'm sure they do,successfully.
Would I recommend those as moose cartridges? No.

I understand the appeal of using the AR-15 for a "do everything" rifle.I hope folks will be honest when they appraise the effectiveness of their choice.

If you have success,clean kills without losing game,with your AR,have fun,with my respect.

If you find that you lose game,or require 4 shots,with your AR,please accept what you see as true. Its not getting the job done FOR YOU,and have enough respect for the animal,and yourself,to select a different tool.

Define success as a clean,merciful kill and gear for success.

If a 25-20 has been doing it for you for 26 years,good for you!!

If your AR seems good for 3 out of 5,please get a better tool for the job.

Don't listen to me,believe your own eyes.

gunrunner1 · November 16, 2016, 06:47 PM

So far, I'm batting 100% with my AR15 using the Federal 62 grain Fusion bullet. Four deer shot, four deer dead. Three dropped when they were hit, one staggered about 10 yards and fell over. The ranges were 10 yards, 52 yards, 80 yards and 129 yards.

bamaranger · November 17, 2016, 02:12 AM

If the boiler room is on the other end of the deer, don't shoot, unless he's already crippled.

Kachok · November 17, 2016, 03:48 AM

The 30-06 has always been a hefty dose of overkill on deer, It is not the case that small calibers have suddenly become effective, they have been for years, but guys trying to be macho insist that you need a 4,000 ft/lbs 300 Ultra Mag to drop a deer which is just laughably stupid to me. My hunting buddy LOVES his 300 magnums, and makes fun of my "little guns" (6.5x55 and 7mm-08) but my little guns have never failed me something that he cannot say for his 300 Mags. You simply cannot compensate for poor shooting by using a bigger gun, shoot what you can shoot well and know where to place it and you could hunt deer with a little 243 with absolute confidence.

Gunplummer · November 17, 2016, 05:19 AM

I am not a fan of "The boiler room" shot. I believe that the farthest I ever had a deer go was with a "Boiler room" shot on a large doe using a 30-30. It threw blood like crazy and just kept going. If I have the time, a neck shot. In a hurry, I try to stay a little high with the vitals shot.

dahermit · November 17, 2016, 07:42 AM

Quote:

I am not a fan of "The boiler room" shot. I believe that the farthest I ever had a deer go was with a "Boiler room" shot on a large doe using a 30-30. It threw blood like crazy and just kept going.

If it, "kept going", then one can make the assumption that the deer was not recovered and the actual location of the bullet strike was not established. It could have been and was likely to have been a gut shot.

Quote:

If I have the time, a neck shot. In a hurry, I try to stay a little high with the vitals shot.

This is an example of the confusion that comes from not using the correct terminology to describe something. To me, the best place to place a shot on deer is in the heart-lung area (A.K.A., "boiler room"). It is apparent that you think that the "boiler room", is not the same as, "...the vitals shot".

Art Eatman · November 17, 2016, 10:29 AM

Let's not get picky about word choices, okay? That winds up with an off-topic squabble. Then I gotta clean up the mess. Bummer.

old roper · November 17, 2016, 11:45 AM

I remember when I got out of the Marines later 60's and live in Ca, hunters where using 243,250-3000 Savage,300 Savage,257 Roberts,284 beside 270/30-06.

Guy I worked with got me started reloading use 257 RobertsAI.

I don't think there ever been a lack of short action calibers if you wanted one. I got old Wildcat manual for the 50's. One was 6.5x257 Roberts.

No question 6.5's have come long was but so have 30 cal/7mm,6mm,22 cal.

CarJunkieLS1 · November 17, 2016, 03:02 PM

I think some clarification on AR's need to be made. Because AR-15's are chambered in manydifferent calibers than just .223/5.56.

Many AR-15 calibers are easily capable of taking whitetail and larger at reasonable distances. I'll say 0-200 yards. Some will reach farther, but 95% of hunters shoot game at less than 200 yards.

.450BM, 6.5 Grendel, 6.8SPC, 30 Rem AR are several in SAAMI Spec cartridges.

Then there are less known "specialty" or wildcat cartridges. .45VRAP, 458 Socom, 50 Beowulf, 6.5BRX, .257 Bobcat, 7mm Valkyrie, .277 WLV and I'm sure many more. Then currently being developed is the .358 Yeti and .30 Sabercat.

The rounds I listed are no more capable or less capable than the proven .243, 7-08, .308,.270,30-06, etc. It's just that AR's are typically same weight or heavier and many people shoot the lighter recoiling semi autos better.

Gunplummer · November 17, 2016, 06:30 PM

Small caliber does not mean black gun. People were shooting "Under powered" cartridges long before the black guns came along. I have hunted WV for over 20 years and the regulations still have "A rimfire rifle of .25 caliber or larger" as deer legal. Not my "Go to" rifle, but apparently it is for someone.

Iwanttoshootbettter · November 17, 2016, 07:07 PM

Great post I just purchased at 500$ off a Leupold VX6 3x18x50 W/CDS and illuminated recticle.I already have a new SPS 30-06 W/VX3I 4.5x14x50,been shooting 700 30-06 for many years that won't change.Shot a 6.5 creedmore Ruger American just 2 days ago and loved it very accurate and fun to shoot,just not buying into lower horse power for accuracy thing.A lot of great replies on here.

ZeroJunk · November 17, 2016, 08:00 PM

Well, unlike the typical forum hunter I have actually gut shot at least two bucks that I remember. Felt bad about it, but I found and ate them just the same.
I'm have some doubt that would have been the case with a 22 caliber.

The whole problem with the perfect shot concept is that in the real world that is not always the case.

Gunplummer · November 18, 2016, 05:04 AM

You probably would have found them faster if you were using a smaller, faster cartridge. My ex gut shot a big doe and there was nothing left. The gut area just exploded. She was using a .257 Roberts. Just my own observation- It seems with guns or bows, the bigger and more powerful the weapon, the more a person tries to extend it's capabilities.

ZeroJunk · November 18, 2016, 08:07 AM

That's where you lose me. You are never 100% sure what the bullet is going to do. But, you are always sure pi are square.

Sarge · November 18, 2016, 09:16 AM

There are times when a lot of penetration is just the ticket. A friend was looking for a meat deer years ago. We I jumped a fat doe and he planted a 325 grain LBT bullet at about 1300 fps, from a Bisley 45 Colt. The bullet struck 4" under and left of its tail as as it started off from its bed. The deer dropped like a rock and we found a thumb sized exit near the center of its neck. You can loosely equate that performance to the standard pressure 45-70.

Assuming good sturdy cup & core bullets, the 308/30-06 and bigger centerfires are going to bore 18-24 inches or shoot through a deer at any angle. This simply allows you to nail the vitals from oblique angles you wouldn't dream of trying with a varmint gun pressed into service as a deer rifle. I've take deer cleanly with a 223 and 65 grain softpoints; but I picked my shots as if I was using a compound bow or a 357 revolver loaded with 125 grain bullets. Knowing the 223 would penetrate far less than my usual rifle, I slipped one into the heart where the least amount of deer was between me and it.

alex0535 · November 18, 2016, 09:58 AM

I typically shoot deer from 5-50 yards, closest one was directly under me, last deer I saw was too young, but she walked within 5 yards of me.

I don't need 3000 foot pounds of energy and 3000+ fps to kill deer at this range, the .35 Remington with a 200 grain bullet doesn't let them run far. Low recoil in a 7lb rifle firing a 200 grain bullet. Good size hole has always left plenty of blood.

Last deer I saw killed with a .30-06 pretty much turned a whole shoulder into dog food. Last 35 i put through a shoulder left a golf ball sized exit wound through it and the majority of it was salvageable.

November 14, 2016, 09:06 AM	#26
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,457	I hunted with handguns for years, which has some parallels to bowhunting. Tiny rifles offer a distance advantage but still require fine precision- generally slipping one through the ribs directly into the heart. Bottom line- you will (or should) pass shots you could easily make with a serious hunting rig. If I am dead serious about getting meat or killing a trophy, I'll take my old Winchester 30-06 with the Nikon BDC on it. That puppy will mash them flat to 300 yards with a hit anywhere in the shoulder or neck. __________________ People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.

November 15, 2016, 01:21 AM	#28
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,309	trends Without a doubt, the popularity of the AR, and the various cartridges that can fit through the AR15 based rifles, are driving that segment of the issue. Folks have acquired an AR.....now what do you do with it? The .243 has been around long enough now, and is mostly understood by the hunting community regards the need for appropriate slugs, that it has a following much broader than its original users, which I agree, was mostly those considered recoil sensitive. People may not be smarter, but there may be some truth in the idea that hunters, are to some extent, more knowledgeable than they were 50 yrs ago. I listened to my elders in the 1960-70's condemn the .243 as a deer cartridge, and extol the '06 with heavy bullets as a tremendous killer. Many of these fellows had hunted only their home state with very controlled harvest limits. They could hunt a lifetime and kill perhaps two dozen deer, with the same rifle/cartridge their Dad used, ie, not a very broad experience base. I repeated the mantra............it was all I knew. But I moved and began to hunt states where harvest limits were more lenient, bowhunted and hunted with muzzleloaders, and began to realize that the old timers were both right and wrong. They just didn't know it. Yes, a .30/180RN RN is indeed grim death on a 150 lb whitetail, but so was a broadhead, a roundball, and a measly 100 gr .243, all when applied correctly. Surely, if I could figure that out, so could a lot of other folks.

November 15, 2016, 07:36 AM	#31
Jack O'Conner Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2005 Location: Manatee County, Florida Posts: 1,976	Used to be that everyone criticized the .243 for weak blood trails. But with a good bonded bullet this is no longer the case. These Premium bullets have significantly increased the penetration for this popular cartridge. Jack __________________ Fire up the grill! Deer hunting IS NOT catch and release.

November 15, 2016, 01:56 PM	#33
treg Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2006 Posts: 1,102	Putting the bullet into the boiler room is key for killing deer with any cartridge. It's when the boiler room is on the other end of the deer that the extra horsepower of the .30-06 / .308 class and up comes in handy. __________________ .44 Special: For those who get it, no explanation is necessary. For those who don't, no explanation is possible. Last edited by treg; November 15, 2016 at 08:27 PM.

November 17, 2016, 02:12 AM	#37
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,309	boiler room If the boiler room is on the other end of the deer, don't shoot, unless he's already crippled.

November 14, 2016, 07:47 PM	#27
ZeroJunk Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2006 Location: Browns Summit NC Posts: 2,589	Probably 75% of all the hunting I have ever done was with a bow. That includes 20 plus years of bow hunting elk in the Bob Marshall Wilderness. Most of the trophies (to me anyway) I have killed were with a bow or muzzle loader. What that has to do with using a 22 caliber for deer is unclear to me.

November 15, 2016, 05:09 AM	#29
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	"All when applied correctly". There you have it. When the compound bow came in, there were wounded deer running all over the place. Mostly the result of taking ridicules shots. Today, not so much (Around here anyway). As with lighter bore rifles, people did not really know the capability of their equipment. Back when big woods rifle hunting for deer was king in PA, there was a LOT of hit deer running around. Most of that could be attributed to .30 caliber or larger bullets. Anybody that thinks some cartridges are under powered are never able never explain that.

November 15, 2016, 07:09 AM	#30
shootbrownelk Senior Member Join Date: August 27, 2013 Location: Wyoming Posts: 329	I have to take exception to the comment made about Elmer Keith being a fan of miniscule calibers. He was a huge fan of big bore hunting rifles. He once said that the perfect deer rifle caliber started at .33. He derided Jack O'Connor for advocating a .270 for big game. He said that O'Connor's beloved .270 " Is a Damned adequate Coyote rifle" Of course, the bullets available back in the 40's and 50's left a lot to be desired, and that had a lot to do with it.

November 15, 2016, 07:44 AM	#32
ZeroJunk Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2006 Location: Browns Summit NC Posts: 2,589	Well, if they will give you some extra prime season days for a 22 caliber I will certainly use one. Otherwise I will use something bigger. All the anecdotal evidence and opinion will never alter the fact that physics is not on your side.

November 16, 2016, 05:12 AM	#34
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	I have to wonder where some of you people actually hit the deer. The last time I had to use a blood trail, I just plain screwed up the shot. It was a 160 Grain bullet. I eventually got him, but doubt if I would have without snow. If I need a blood trail, I screwed up the shot. I strongly suspect that people taking 300+ yard shots leave dead deer laying because there is no blood trail. The reason that there is no blood trail is that they are looking at the wrong place. Even at short range, things look different when you walk 80 yards towards the last place you saw the deer.

November 16, 2016, 02:47 PM	#35
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,286	IMO,it comes down to results.What is true. I simply have zero experience with "minor caliber" big game hunting. Not all deer are the same.There are 80 to 100 lb bucks,and thereare 300 lb bucks. Its not "one size fits all" There are tree stand deer hunts,permanent blind deer hunts,and rimrock deer hunts,shots from 10 yds to 400,and beyond. Might an Inuit or Athabaskan Alaskan native harvest everything ,incuding moose,with a .223? Or a 30-30? I'm sure they do,successfully. Would I recommend those as moose cartridges? No. I understand the appeal of using the AR-15 for a "do everything" rifle.I hope folks will be honest when they appraise the effectiveness of their choice. If you have success,clean kills without losing game,with your AR,have fun,with my respect. If you find that you lose game,or require 4 shots,with your AR,please accept what you see as true. Its not getting the job done FOR YOU,and have enough respect for the animal,and yourself,to select a different tool. Define success as a clean,merciful kill and gear for success. If a 25-20 has been doing it for you for 26 years,good for you!! If your AR seems good for 3 out of 5,please get a better tool for the job. Don't listen to me,believe your own eyes.

November 16, 2016, 06:47 PM	#36
gunrunner1 Senior Member Join Date: March 30, 2010 Location: Missouri Posts: 111	So far, I'm batting 100% with my AR15 using the Federal 62 grain Fusion bullet. Four deer shot, four deer dead. Three dropped when they were hit, one staggered about 10 yards and fell over. The ranges were 10 yards, 52 yards, 80 yards and 129 yards.

November 17, 2016, 03:48 AM	#38
Kachok Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2012 Posts: 304	The 30-06 has always been a hefty dose of overkill on deer, It is not the case that small calibers have suddenly become effective, they have been for years, but guys trying to be macho insist that you need a 4,000 ft/lbs 300 Ultra Mag to drop a deer which is just laughably stupid to me. My hunting buddy LOVES his 300 magnums, and makes fun of my "little guns" (6.5x55 and 7mm-08) but my little guns have never failed me something that he cannot say for his 300 Mags. You simply cannot compensate for poor shooting by using a bigger gun, shoot what you can shoot well and know where to place it and you could hunt deer with a little 243 with absolute confidence.

November 17, 2016, 05:19 AM	#39
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	I am not a fan of "The boiler room" shot. I believe that the farthest I ever had a deer go was with a "Boiler room" shot on a large doe using a 30-30. It threw blood like crazy and just kept going. If I have the time, a neck shot. In a hurry, I try to stay a little high with the vitals shot.

November 17, 2016, 10:29 AM	#41
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	Let's not get picky about word choices, okay? That winds up with an off-topic squabble. Then I gotta clean up the mess. Bummer.

November 17, 2016, 11:45 AM	#42
old roper Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2007 Posts: 2,155	I remember when I got out of the Marines later 60's and live in Ca, hunters where using 243,250-3000 Savage,300 Savage,257 Roberts,284 beside 270/30-06. Guy I worked with got me started reloading use 257 RobertsAI. I don't think there ever been a lack of short action calibers if you wanted one. I got old Wildcat manual for the 50's. One was 6.5x257 Roberts. No question 6.5's have come long was but so have 30 cal/7mm,6mm,22 cal. __________________ Semper Fi Vietnam 1965 VFW Life member NRA Life Member

November 17, 2016, 03:02 PM	#43
CarJunkieLS1 Senior Member Join Date: October 1, 2013 Posts: 686	I think some clarification on AR's need to be made. Because AR-15's are chambered in manydifferent calibers than just .223/5.56. Many AR-15 calibers are easily capable of taking whitetail and larger at reasonable distances. I'll say 0-200 yards. Some will reach farther, but 95% of hunters shoot game at less than 200 yards. .450BM, 6.5 Grendel, 6.8SPC, 30 Rem AR are several in SAAMI Spec cartridges. Then there are less known "specialty" or wildcat cartridges. .45VRAP, 458 Socom, 50 Beowulf, 6.5BRX, .257 Bobcat, 7mm Valkyrie, .277 WLV and I'm sure many more. Then currently being developed is the .358 Yeti and .30 Sabercat. The rounds I listed are no more capable or less capable than the proven .243, 7-08, .308,.270,30-06, etc. It's just that AR's are typically same weight or heavier and many people shoot the lighter recoiling semi autos better.

November 17, 2016, 06:30 PM	#44
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	Small caliber does not mean black gun. People were shooting "Under powered" cartridges long before the black guns came along. I have hunted WV for over 20 years and the regulations still have "A rimfire rifle of .25 caliber or larger" as deer legal. Not my "Go to" rifle, but apparently it is for someone.

November 17, 2016, 07:07 PM	#45
Iwanttoshootbettter Member Join Date: November 16, 2016 Location: Laporte Texas Posts: 79	I'm old school. Great post I just purchased at 500$ off a Leupold VX6 3x18x50 W/CDS and illuminated recticle.I already have a new SPS 30-06 W/VX3I 4.5x14x50,been shooting 700 30-06 for many years that won't change.Shot a 6.5 creedmore Ruger American just 2 days ago and loved it very accurate and fun to shoot,just not buying into lower horse power for accuracy thing.A lot of great replies on here.

November 17, 2016, 08:00 PM	#46
ZeroJunk Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2006 Location: Browns Summit NC Posts: 2,589	Well, unlike the typical forum hunter I have actually gut shot at least two bucks that I remember. Felt bad about it, but I found and ate them just the same. I'm have some doubt that would have been the case with a 22 caliber. The whole problem with the perfect shot concept is that in the real world that is not always the case.

November 18, 2016, 05:04 AM	#47
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	You probably would have found them faster if you were using a smaller, faster cartridge. My ex gut shot a big doe and there was nothing left. The gut area just exploded. She was using a .257 Roberts. Just my own observation- It seems with guns or bows, the bigger and more powerful the weapon, the more a person tries to extend it's capabilities.

November 18, 2016, 08:07 AM	#48
ZeroJunk Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2006 Location: Browns Summit NC Posts: 2,589	That's where you lose me. You are never 100% sure what the bullet is going to do. But, you are always sure pi are square.

November 18, 2016, 09:16 AM	#49
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,457	There are times when a lot of penetration is just the ticket. A friend was looking for a meat deer years ago. We I jumped a fat doe and he planted a 325 grain LBT bullet at about 1300 fps, from a Bisley 45 Colt. The bullet struck 4" under and left of its tail as as it started off from its bed. The deer dropped like a rock and we found a thumb sized exit near the center of its neck. You can loosely equate that performance to the standard pressure 45-70. Assuming good sturdy cup & core bullets, the 308/30-06 and bigger centerfires are going to bore 18-24 inches or shoot through a deer at any angle. This simply allows you to nail the vitals from oblique angles you wouldn't dream of trying with a varmint gun pressed into service as a deer rifle. I've take deer cleanly with a 223 and 65 grain softpoints; but I picked my shots as if I was using a compound bow or a 357 revolver loaded with 125 grain bullets. Knowing the 223 would penetrate far less than my usual rifle, I slipped one into the heart where the least amount of deer was between me and it. __________________ People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.

November 18, 2016, 09:58 AM	#50
alex0535 Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2012 Location: Georgia Posts: 908	I typically shoot deer from 5-50 yards, closest one was directly under me, last deer I saw was too young, but she walked within 5 yards of me. I don't need 3000 foot pounds of energy and 3000+ fps to kill deer at this range, the .35 Remington with a 200 grain bullet doesn't let them run far. Low recoil in a 7lb rifle firing a 200 grain bullet. Good size hole has always left plenty of blood. Last deer I saw killed with a .30-06 pretty much turned a whole shoulder into dog food. Last 35 i put through a shoulder left a golf ball sized exit wound through it and the majority of it was salvageable.