.45 ACP Load, unburnt powder, dirty gun, help!!

golfnutrlv · February 1, 2011, 07:46 PM

Hey everyone, just when I thought that I had found a good load for my Kimber 1911, this pops up. I am getting a significant amount of unburnt powder inside the slide and frame of my 1911. See pictures below. Gun is not over lubed, and was clean before it was fired to create this. Less than 100 rounds did this.

Not sure what the deal is, if I need to try a different powder or what. The first batch I made with this powder was too hot, too much muzzle blast and recoil. So, I knocked it down some, and got this mess.

Any suggestions for another powder, or some other cause. All i'm looking to find is a good, clean target load. I want it to be reasonably close to factory .45 auto in terms of recoil, etc to train properly.

Thanks everyone!!

Load Data:
Gun: Kimber Custom II 5"
Bullet: Montana Gold FMJ 230 gr
Powder: Hodgdon HS-6, 8.0 grs
Primer: Winchester
Case: Federal

88KEYS · February 1, 2011, 08:08 PM

I was working up some carry rounds and tried HS-6 using a magnum primer and yes you get some flash. I shoot 200 SWC in my Kimbers and use a fast powder Red Dot works great. I had no powder issues it should be a good choice for the 230 grain.

As for the powder you found just a few things you might check.
Crimp Too Light
Clean/Clear Primer Hole
Charge Weight (Zero the scale and make sure it is what you want)

I know you will get help from the Forum.

wncchester · February 1, 2011, 08:11 PM

Your powder is too slow burning for the reduced pressue load.

chris in va · February 1, 2011, 08:17 PM

My Lyman manual doesn't list HS-6 for anything in the jacketed 230gr range. Might want to try something else.

totaldla · February 1, 2011, 08:20 PM

Nothing wrong with dirt unless it is slopping goo on you when firng. HS6 will get cleaner if you stay towards the top-end of the load range.

If you want performance without the flash, you can try AA#5. If you want better performance with similar flash, try PowerPistol. If you mediocre performance but cleaner, try 231/HP38. If you want a different kind of dirt use Bullseye or Unique. If you want poofter loads that have zero flash and are uber-clean, try Hodgdon Clays.

In general though, unless the dirt is effecting operation, keep shooting. I think folks get a little carried away sometimes with "clean burning" and "leading".

Brian Pfleuger · February 1, 2011, 08:26 PM

That's not really a low pressure load, QuickLoad predicts 19,350 psi, but I do suspect the powder is not the best choice for 45acp.... QuickLoad thinks you'd only burn about 86% of an 8.0gr charge in a 5" barrel. That's 1.2gr unburned powder.

**Unclenick** · February 1, 2011, 08:31 PM

19,350 psi is near max for standard .45 ACP loads. Agree, though, that you'll burn Power Pistol a lot better.

golfnutrlv · February 1, 2011, 08:43 PM

Thanks everyone for the replies.

Another note, I also tried HP-38, and did not like the performance it gave me. Too weak. Cycled the action, but felt like a 9mm 1911!!!!

Based on what I have read so far from everyone, I will try Accurate no 5, and Power Pistol to start with.

Other ideas welcome, keep em coming!!

GP100man · February 1, 2011, 08:48 PM

The standard by which other loads are compared to , 5grs of WW231/HP-38

Never tried PP before , IMR 700x is good as well as CLAYS, nice clean burn & controllable pressure

Reread some , you`ll like 700x !!!

Brian Pfleuger · February 1, 2011, 08:55 PM

QuickLoad thinks Power Pistol would be just as bad in the unburnt powder category.... max load around 8.1gr and only 82% burn.

You might try N330 or N340 to get results in the same fps range. QuickLoad predicts 100% and 97.7% burn at max charge, respectively. Vihtavuori powders are known for being excellent performers and clean burning, generally.

BDS-THR · February 1, 2011, 09:12 PM

Quote:

I also tried HP-38, and did not like the performance it gave me. Too weak. Cycled the action, but felt like a 9mm 1911!!!!

How much HP38 did you use? What OAL did you use?

5.0 gr with 230 gr will give you a moderate, clean load. If you want more velocity, increase powder charge towards max.

According to Hodgdon load data, W231/HP38 should produce comparable velocity as HS-6

Quote:

230 gr HDY FMJ FP W231/HP-38 Max 5.3 gr (832 fps)
230 gr HDY FMJ FP Hodgdon HS-6 Max 8.2 gr (825 fps)

230 gr HDY FMJ FP Winchester AutoComp Max 6.6 gr (871 fps)
230 gr HDY FMJ FP Hodgdon Universal Max 5.6 gr (844 fps)
230 gr HDY FMJ FP Winchester WSF Max 6.4 gr (851 fps)

golfnutrlv · February 1, 2011, 09:16 PM

Peetzakilla,

Thanks for the burn info, does quick load list a burn percentage for AA no 5??

BDS,

I used 5.0 gr HP38, and 1.255 COAL.

Brian Pfleuger · February 1, 2011, 09:27 PM

Quote:

does quick load list a burn percentage for AA no 5??

It does..... lousy... around 78% at that same fps region.

W231 is predicted as 100% burn in that load range, as is Hodgdon Universal.

Those are all near max loads to reach your 920-950ish fps.

BDS-THR · February 1, 2011, 09:57 PM

golfnutrlv, could you be over-crimping?

I shoot with a guy who has several Kimbers (5" and 3") and 5.0 gr of W231/HP38 is his favorite accurate load now. The recoil from 230 gr load is slightly less than full power factory load but nowhere near 9mm.

Are your powder/primers fresh?

golfnutrlv · February 1, 2011, 10:03 PM

BDS,

My powder/primers are brand new. I use HS-6 for my 9mm loads, and it's great, clean as all get out.

I don't think i'm overcrimping. .469 is my measurement after crimping.

Peetzakilla,

Ughhh on the burn rate, thanks for the info. Much more thinking to do.

alfack · February 1, 2011, 10:20 PM

I use 5.2 gr. of AA#2 for that bullet and it is very clean. It feels very close to factory ammo, but I haven't ever run any across the chrony.

HawkeyeNRAlifer · February 1, 2011, 11:00 PM

+1 for the accurate #2 load. I like that load for all my 45's. W231 works well too.

Powderman · February 1, 2011, 11:16 PM

Hm. Interesting comments here.

Someone described a Clays load as a "poofter" load. Don't know about that; I do know that 4.0 of Clays under a 200 grain HG 68 LSWC, sized at .452 and lubed with Javelina Alox, crimped to .470 will cycle my Colt Enhanced with a 20 lb recoil spring.

As for Power Pistol, this is a powder that is aptly named. 8.1 grains was listed as a max load; 6.8 under a 230 grain FMJ chronographed at 910 fps from my hardball gun, a custom Springfield 1911A1.

And for HP38, I have loaded 4.5 under the 230 grain LSWC. Chronographs right at 830 fps--which is the lower end of the military load, known as Cartridge, Ball, .45 Automatic Colt Pistol.

All of those loads burns super clean in my guns.

Wag · February 1, 2011, 11:37 PM

I'm not a real fan of HS-6 but in some loads, it does well.

Lately, I use as much 231 as possible. ;-)

--Wag--

golfnutrlv · February 1, 2011, 11:41 PM

Thanks everyone. Been reading all my manuals, reading about powder types, trying to find more info.

Going to try some AA no 2, sounds like a good balance of power, charge size, and cleanliness from what I have read.

Keep you all updated.

Thanks a million everyone.

steve4102 · February 2, 2011, 08:51 AM

Ramshot Silhouette!

**Unclenick** · February 2, 2011, 11:50 AM

Note that incomplete burning is going to be characteristic of loads in pistol-length barrels that produce maximum velocities. I doesn't matter which high power factor producing powder you use, in order to get maximum acceleration in the short tube without exceeding peak pressure limitations, you have to eat that inefficiency and the extra recoil that results, but the bullet has a move on.

Like Pizzakilla, I usually turn to QuickLOAD for an initial indication of best powder choices. However, its model has limitations. For example, it shows Power Pistol being in the same burn rate range as HS-6 and is correct that a similar portion will be incompletely burned by the time the projectile clears the bore, but that's not the same as revealing how much and what kind of fouling will be left behind. Fouling often depends on compounding details, such as the purity of the nitrocellulose used (did it come from nitrated wood fiber (dirty) or cotton fiber (clean). It is also affected by how much graphite was worked into the surface or what deterrent coatings were used or how much nitroglycerin was incorporated.

The above factors are the reason rifle powders made by Vihtavuori are often remarked upon as being cleaner burning than other brands of stick powder with similar burning rates. Indeed, differences in fouling among powders with similar burning rates is pronounced enough that rifle match shooters avoid using short and long range loads with different powders in them during the same match. It has been found to take up to a dozen rounds or so for the rifle to settle after making the change. That's due to differences in bore friction as the bullet plows through fouling with differences in thickness deposited per shot, as well as difference in consistency and lubricity.

So, as to using Power Pistol over the older HS-6 formulation, my experience is that it does not foul as badly. It's ballistic efficiency is no higher and its recoil no less, as QuickLOAD calculates, but for similar power level loads it just doesn't seem to pack fouling in the spaces between the sliding parts of the gun up as quickly. This all has some dependency on the details of your firearm and its chamber geometry, so YMMV.

golfnutrlv · February 6, 2011, 03:34 PM

Alright everyone, reviving my old thread with an update.

Loaded some test rounds and went to the range today. Tried accurate no 5, and HP38 again.

For Accurate No 5, I started with these charges: COL was 1.255 in all cases.
7.8
8.0
8.2
8.4

I had the same powder fouling with the lower charges, but the higher charges were better.

I also loaded some HP-38 at:
5.3, COL 1.255.

This load did better than my first attempt.

The big question I have, is what is the upper limit on HP-38? All the data I have seen is 5.3 is max. However, the pressure is listed at only 16,800. There has got to be potential for higher charges. Anyone loading HP-38 with 230 Gr FMJ higher than 5.3 gr????

Thanks,

mikejonestkd · February 6, 2011, 03:42 PM

I use win 231 which is essentially the same powder as HP-38 and my manuals list up to 5.8 grains behind a 230 FMJ. As always, work up to it slowly and watch for pressure signs.

The IMR website lists 5.3 as max for a 230 grain jacketed bullet though.

golfnutrlv · February 6, 2011, 04:32 PM

Correction made to pressure number.

February 1, 2011, 07:46 PM	#1
golfnutrlv Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2008 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 1,347	.45 ACP Load, unburnt powder, dirty gun, help!! Hey everyone, just when I thought that I had found a good load for my Kimber 1911, this pops up. I am getting a significant amount of unburnt powder inside the slide and frame of my 1911. See pictures below. Gun is not over lubed, and was clean before it was fired to create this. Less than 100 rounds did this. Not sure what the deal is, if I need to try a different powder or what. The first batch I made with this powder was too hot, too much muzzle blast and recoil. So, I knocked it down some, and got this mess. Any suggestions for another powder, or some other cause. All i'm looking to find is a good, clean target load. I want it to be reasonably close to factory .45 auto in terms of recoil, etc to train properly. Thanks everyone!! Load Data: Gun: Kimber Custom II 5" Bullet: Montana Gold FMJ 230 gr Powder: Hodgdon HS-6, 8.0 grs Primer: Winchester Case: Federal __________________ ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ VIGILIA PRETIUM LIBERTATIS "The price of liberty is vigilance" America is at an awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards. Last edited by golfnutrlv; February 1, 2011 at 07:52 PM.

February 1, 2011, 08:26 PM	#6
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	That's not really a low pressure load, QuickLoad predicts 19,350 psi, but I do suspect the powder is not the best choice for 45acp.... QuickLoad thinks you'd only burn about 86% of an 8.0gr charge in a 5" barrel. That's 1.2gr unburned powder. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

February 1, 2011, 08:31 PM	#7
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	19,350 psi is near max for standard .45 ACP loads. Agree, though, that you'll burn Power Pistol a lot better. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

February 1, 2011, 08:43 PM	#8
golfnutrlv Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2008 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 1,347	Thanks everyone for the replies. Another note, I also tried HP-38, and did not like the performance it gave me. Too weak. Cycled the action, but felt like a 9mm 1911!!!! Based on what I have read so far from everyone, I will try Accurate no 5, and Power Pistol to start with. Other ideas welcome, keep em coming!! __________________ ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ VIGILIA PRETIUM LIBERTATIS "The price of liberty is vigilance" America is at an awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards.

February 1, 2011, 08:48 PM	#9
GP100man Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2007 Location: Tabor City , NC. Posts: 1,969	The standard by which other loads are compared to , 5grs of WW231/HP-38 Never tried PP before , IMR 700x is good as well as CLAYS, nice clean burn & controllable pressure Reread some , you`ll like 700x !!! __________________ GP100man

February 1, 2011, 08:08 PM	#2
88KEYS Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2010 Posts: 145	I was working up some carry rounds and tried HS-6 using a magnum primer and yes you get some flash. I shoot 200 SWC in my Kimbers and use a fast powder Red Dot works great. I had no powder issues it should be a good choice for the 230 grain. As for the powder you found just a few things you might check. Crimp Too Light Clean/Clear Primer Hole Charge Weight (Zero the scale and make sure it is what you want) I know you will get help from the Forum.

February 1, 2011, 08:11 PM	#3
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	Your powder is too slow burning for the reduced pressue load.

February 1, 2011, 08:17 PM	#4
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	My Lyman manual doesn't list HS-6 for anything in the jacketed 230gr range. Might want to try something else.

February 1, 2011, 08:20 PM	#5
totaldla Senior Member Join Date: August 10, 2009 Location: SW Idaho Posts: 1,295	Nothing wrong with dirt unless it is slopping goo on you when firng. HS6 will get cleaner if you stay towards the top-end of the load range. If you want performance without the flash, you can try AA#5. If you want better performance with similar flash, try PowerPistol. If you mediocre performance but cleaner, try 231/HP38. If you want a different kind of dirt use Bullseye or Unique. If you want poofter loads that have zero flash and are uber-clean, try Hodgdon Clays. In general though, unless the dirt is effecting operation, keep shooting. I think folks get a little carried away sometimes with "clean burning" and "leading". __________________ Lee Auto Bench Prime Castor Oil Case Lube

February 1, 2011, 08:55 PM	#10
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	QuickLoad thinks Power Pistol would be just as bad in the unburnt powder category.... max load around 8.1gr and only 82% burn. You might try N330 or N340 to get results in the same fps range. QuickLoad predicts 100% and 97.7% burn at max charge, respectively. Vihtavuori powders are known for being excellent performers and clean burning, generally. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

February 1, 2011, 09:16 PM	#12
golfnutrlv Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2008 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 1,347	Peetzakilla, Thanks for the burn info, does quick load list a burn percentage for AA no 5?? BDS, I used 5.0 gr HP38, and 1.255 COAL. __________________ ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ VIGILIA PRETIUM LIBERTATIS "The price of liberty is vigilance" America is at an awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards.

February 1, 2011, 09:57 PM	#14
BDS-THR Senior Member Join Date: June 12, 2010 Posts: 479	golfnutrlv, could you be over-crimping? I shoot with a guy who has several Kimbers (5" and 3") and 5.0 gr of W231/HP38 is his favorite accurate load now. The recoil from 230 gr load is slightly less than full power factory load but nowhere near 9mm. Are your powder/primers fresh?

February 1, 2011, 10:03 PM	#15
golfnutrlv Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2008 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 1,347	BDS, My powder/primers are brand new. I use HS-6 for my 9mm loads, and it's great, clean as all get out. I don't think i'm overcrimping. .469 is my measurement after crimping. Peetzakilla, Ughhh on the burn rate, thanks for the info. Much more thinking to do. __________________ ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ VIGILIA PRETIUM LIBERTATIS "The price of liberty is vigilance" America is at an awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards.

February 1, 2011, 10:20 PM	#16
alfack Senior Member Join Date: March 4, 2009 Location: Marysville, Washington Posts: 195	I use 5.2 gr. of AA#2 for that bullet and it is very clean. It feels very close to factory ammo, but I haven't ever run any across the chrony.

February 1, 2011, 11:00 PM	#17
HawkeyeNRAlifer Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2007 Location: Iowa Posts: 316	+1 for the accurate #2 load. I like that load for all my 45's. W231 works well too.

February 1, 2011, 11:16 PM	#18
Powderman Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2001 Location: Washington State Posts: 2,166	Hm. Interesting comments here. Someone described a Clays load as a "poofter" load. Don't know about that; I do know that 4.0 of Clays under a 200 grain HG 68 LSWC, sized at .452 and lubed with Javelina Alox, crimped to .470 will cycle my Colt Enhanced with a 20 lb recoil spring. As for Power Pistol, this is a powder that is aptly named. 8.1 grains was listed as a max load; 6.8 under a 230 grain FMJ chronographed at 910 fps from my hardball gun, a custom Springfield 1911A1. And for HP38, I have loaded 4.5 under the 230 grain LSWC. Chronographs right at 830 fps--which is the lower end of the military load, known as Cartridge, Ball, .45 Automatic Colt Pistol. All of those loads burns super clean in my guns. __________________ Hiding in plain sight...

February 1, 2011, 11:37 PM	#19
Wag Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2010 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 988	I'm not a real fan of HS-6 but in some loads, it does well. Lately, I use as much 231 as possible. ;-) --Wag-- __________________ "Great genius will always encounter fierce opposition from mediocre minds." --Albert Einstein.

February 1, 2011, 11:41 PM	#20
golfnutrlv Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2008 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 1,347	Thanks everyone. Been reading all my manuals, reading about powder types, trying to find more info. Going to try some AA no 2, sounds like a good balance of power, charge size, and cleanliness from what I have read. Keep you all updated. Thanks a million everyone. __________________ ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ VIGILIA PRETIUM LIBERTATIS "The price of liberty is vigilance" America is at an awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards.

February 2, 2011, 08:51 AM	#21
steve4102 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,955	Ramshot Silhouette!

February 2, 2011, 11:50 AM	#22
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Note that incomplete burning is going to be characteristic of loads in pistol-length barrels that produce maximum velocities. I doesn't matter which high power factor producing powder you use, in order to get maximum acceleration in the short tube without exceeding peak pressure limitations, you have to eat that inefficiency and the extra recoil that results, but the bullet has a move on. Like Pizzakilla, I usually turn to QuickLOAD for an initial indication of best powder choices. However, its model has limitations. For example, it shows Power Pistol being in the same burn rate range as HS-6 and is correct that a similar portion will be incompletely burned by the time the projectile clears the bore, but that's not the same as revealing how much and what kind of fouling will be left behind. Fouling often depends on compounding details, such as the purity of the nitrocellulose used (did it come from nitrated wood fiber (dirty) or cotton fiber (clean). It is also affected by how much graphite was worked into the surface or what deterrent coatings were used or how much nitroglycerin was incorporated. The above factors are the reason rifle powders made by Vihtavuori are often remarked upon as being cleaner burning than other brands of stick powder with similar burning rates. Indeed, differences in fouling among powders with similar burning rates is pronounced enough that rifle match shooters avoid using short and long range loads with different powders in them during the same match. It has been found to take up to a dozen rounds or so for the rifle to settle after making the change. That's due to differences in bore friction as the bullet plows through fouling with differences in thickness deposited per shot, as well as difference in consistency and lubricity. So, as to using Power Pistol over the older HS-6 formulation, my experience is that it does not foul as badly. It's ballistic efficiency is no higher and its recoil no less, as QuickLOAD calculates, but for similar power level loads it just doesn't seem to pack fouling in the spaces between the sliding parts of the gun up as quickly. This all has some dependency on the details of your firearm and its chamber geometry, so YMMV. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

February 6, 2011, 03:34 PM	#23
golfnutrlv Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2008 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 1,347	Alright everyone, reviving my old thread with an update. Loaded some test rounds and went to the range today. Tried accurate no 5, and HP38 again. For Accurate No 5, I started with these charges: COL was 1.255 in all cases. 7.8 8.0 8.2 8.4 I had the same powder fouling with the lower charges, but the higher charges were better. I also loaded some HP-38 at: 5.3, COL 1.255. This load did better than my first attempt. The big question I have, is what is the upper limit on HP-38? All the data I have seen is 5.3 is max. However, the pressure is listed at only 16,800. There has got to be potential for higher charges. Anyone loading HP-38 with 230 Gr FMJ higher than 5.3 gr???? Thanks, __________________ ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ VIGILIA PRETIUM LIBERTATIS "The price of liberty is vigilance" America is at an awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards. Last edited by golfnutrlv; February 6, 2011 at 04:32 PM.

February 6, 2011, 03:42 PM	#24
mikejonestkd Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2006 Location: Brockport, NY Posts: 3,717	I use win 231 which is essentially the same powder as HP-38 and my manuals list up to 5.8 grains behind a 230 FMJ. As always, work up to it slowly and watch for pressure signs. The IMR website lists 5.3 as max for a 230 grain jacketed bullet though. __________________ You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth. Last edited by mikejonestkd; February 6, 2011 at 04:38 PM.

February 6, 2011, 04:32 PM	#25
golfnutrlv Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2008 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 1,347	Correction made to pressure number. __________________ ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ VIGILIA PRETIUM LIBERTATIS "The price of liberty is vigilance" America is at an awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards.