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Old December 15, 2009, 11:21 PM   #1
Tex S
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Thinking about getting into 45-70

Below are two rifles I was looking at...

Winchester Model 1885 High Wall Traditional Hunter, Limited Edition

H&R Buffalo Classic Rifle

The Winchester can be had for $950 and the H&R for about $400. I know just about zero as far as 45-70 goes, but I like the old style single shot design of both of the above rifles. I also want something that I can shoot very accurately with open/peep sights. I want something that can handle a full powerhouse load should I want it to. I could pay cash for the H&R tomorrow, but I am not sure of the quality of the rifle since I have never seen one (I have never seen a Winchester 1885 either).

Have you had any experiences with either type of rifle?

Would both of these rifles withstand full power 45-70 pressures?

Could I use black powder and smokeless powder to load with?

What type of rifles would yall recommend I look at that are similar to the ones shown above?

Any input regarding 45-70 rifles, loads, sights, etc. would be greatly appreciated.
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Old December 15, 2009, 11:25 PM   #2
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love the caliber, especially in a handi rifle

VERY EXPENSIVE to get into.
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Old December 15, 2009, 11:33 PM   #3
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Id go for the H&R

Pros:
Cheap
Reliable
Parts readily available
Not gonna depreciate all that much if you shoot it
if you want to step your caliber up (45-90 to 45-120) its as easy as firing a chambering reamer down the tube.
Very simple guns=very little to go wrong with them
I beleive H&R offers a service you various barrels can be fitted to one frame so you could have it fitted to say 40-60 or whatever

Cons:
Ya not as glamorous as the winchester
It wont be a collectible
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Old December 15, 2009, 11:56 PM   #4
Tex S
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Does the H&R allow for a tang mounted sight? I really like this rifle because of the long 32" barrel and cheap price. I'm just skeptical of the sights and quality of the rifle. Will it handle a full power load?
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Old December 15, 2009, 11:56 PM   #5
Uncle Chan
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I have the HR Buffalo Classic AND a 1895 Marlin CB in 45-70. Other than 45LC, this is my favorite caliber. Very versatile.

Good choice on caliber.
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Old December 16, 2009, 12:03 AM   #6
Uncle Chan
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You can get tang sight, but I never found one I liked. I have a ladder sight on mine. It has a built in peep. On the front, I have a Lyman globe sight.

As for what kind of charge it can handle, I've put some stout loads through mine. It isn't a Sharps, that's for sure. But it is better than a lever-action, strength wise. So, I'd say somewhere between a Marlin 1881 and a Sharps.
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Old December 16, 2009, 12:06 AM   #7
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Midway has a tang sight for it

Im trying to find one of the peeps that came with the BC, Uncle Chan... still got your's?
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Old December 16, 2009, 12:45 AM   #8
hickstick_10
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Factory chambers the HR in 30-06 and 500 smith and wesson, no sharps or marlin can tolerate these loads.
Shel handle a fairly stout charge, although i would be careful about ruger no 1 loading levels, should handle the marlin loads no problem
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Old December 16, 2009, 01:52 AM   #9
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The Marlin 1895 in 45-70 is a decent rifle especially if you reload. I like the Marlins because they are easy to clean and fun to shoot and not to expensive. I also use a Browning B78 falling block 45-70. It handles heavy loads well but is no longer available. Glad I bought one when I did.

Last edited by Yankee1; December 16, 2009 at 01:54 AM. Reason: misspelling
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Old December 16, 2009, 02:29 AM   #10
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A couple of things
  1. The H&R is a break action, the Winchester is a falling block, both single shots, but the Winnie looks more traditional
  2. The Marlin Guide Gun is the very best packing big bore carbine - in my opinion
  3. You cannot load the 45-70 hot enough to flatten out the trajectory. So you need to accept that memorizing your ballistics and accurate distance estimates are required for > 200yd shots
  4. If you load either of those rifles hot, the recoil will loosen your bowels. I'm not joking either.
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Old December 16, 2009, 02:56 AM   #11
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Of the two, the 1885 High Wall is the better gun, by a far shot. The 1885 Winchester dominated target shooting in the late 1800s and early 1900s when target shooting was very much a national passion. You will enjoy shooting it quite a bit, as it is a very well-designed rifle. The 1885 has been chambered for more cartridges than any other rifle ever designed or manufactured, including the big magnums. It is capable of handling the stoutest loads published for 45-70, although I doubt there is much use for them except to impress your junior high school kids.

The H&R is a relatively new design, actually a shotgun masquerading as a rifle, although I have seen some that shoot quite well. Recoil with H&R rifles can be wicked due to the light weight and stock design.

The Marlin 1895 Guide Gun is also a newer design, and actually a whole different beast since it is a repeater. If you want a more traditional 45-70, the 1895 is available in a Cowboy version with a longer barrel.
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Old December 16, 2009, 03:33 AM   #12
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Scorch, be gentle on the H&R's... they're much more than a masquerading shotgun.

yes, recoil CAN be an issue, but there are tips and tricks to help that, along with lots of different stock options... just ask these guys

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/board,126.0.html
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Old December 16, 2009, 04:21 AM   #13
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Ruger #1S in 45-70
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Old December 16, 2009, 05:12 AM   #14
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ruger #1 in 50-140, and youl smoke screen the other guys in shooting match
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Old December 16, 2009, 08:50 AM   #15
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H&R

About the H&R
Quote:
As for what kind of charge it can handle,
Buffalo Bore rates the Handi-Rifle, right along with the Ruger, the Browning, etc., as safe with it's +P 45-70 ammo.
It's a strong gun. Equally strong, as noted, is the recoil.
I acquired a 45-70 Handi-Rifle 24" bbl some years ago, mounted an NEGC peep on it. It's a good shooter. Stout loads really let you know that the gun has gone off. A good recoil pad helps a lot, as does a hard hold of the gun.
My favorite 45-70 is the Browning 1885 Hi-wall, though I shoot only BP in that.
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Old December 16, 2009, 09:09 AM   #16
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Go for the high wall, the lockup is one of the strongest around, a falling block. The H&R is based on the tip open idea. The locking bolt engages the barrel lug at the bottom and the barrel hinges 2-3 inches forward. This type of action can and does move when fired, as the back thrust is pushing against the standing breech.

The falling block is supported by solid rails in back of the block nothing to move, if you stretch the action you are way above proof loads.
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Old December 16, 2009, 09:10 AM   #17
Jim Watson
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The H&R BC is very popular amongst Cowboy shooters for their side matches.

You can get a period style barrel mounted sight to replace the stock Williams.

A traditional tang sight can be mounted to the wrist of the stock with wood screws or for a nice job, threaded sockets can be inletted and glass bedded.

The price of a good tang sight will get your attention. Marble's sporting tangs are $130 at Buffalo Arms, vernier tangs start at $225 and go up fast.
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Old December 16, 2009, 10:01 AM   #18
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Great caliber the 45/70 is, with so many aspects, wide range and types of loads that can be put together, some must read literature on this Lyman 48th or 49th edition, Ken Waters Pet Loads thats a good one, and 45 years with the 45/70 by Paul Mathews, start with the Handi-Rifle and you'll have so much fun with it I gaurantee you'll want to add a stronger lever action or single shot to your collection
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Old December 16, 2009, 10:43 AM   #19
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in the natural course of shooting a 45 70 you will wind up at a buffalo gong shoot. you will need to be able to load quality black powder ammo and need good long range tang sights for that.
......i have wasted lots of money on inferior rifles. hold out for a sharps or winchester/browning heavy barrel gun. fwiw. bobn
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Old December 16, 2009, 11:36 AM   #20
Tex S
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Thanks for all the responses fellas. Thats alot of good info.

Quote:
must read literature on this Lyman 48th or 49th edition, Ken Waters Pet Loads thats a good one, and 45 years with the 45/70 by Paul Mathews
Funny you should mention those... I own and have read all 3!

This is where I am at; I can afford the H&R easily, with plenty of money left over for dies, brass, bullets, and maybe even some casting equipment. If I buy the Winchester I will have to wait awhile to get tooled up to load 45-70. I am the kind of person who likes to do things right the first time, so I might just wait for the Winchester. On the other hand, from what I've heard the H&R is a great rifle too, and at less than half the price of the Winchester it seems like a real bargain. I can buy it from Wal-Mart on their in store credit card and get 0% apr for 12 months. Both choices are tempting...

By the way, where might I look to find more information on the falling block action? I would like to see some pictures or diagrams of how it works.
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Old December 16, 2009, 11:39 AM   #21
kwells6
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with the H&R, if you get tired of it, I DEFINATELY know a place where you could get rid of it... *cough* *cough*
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Old December 16, 2009, 12:56 PM   #22
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If you can handle the asking price, go for the Winchester. The H&R is a good rifle but both are good values and you get what you pay for. What you get from Winchester is much more than twice the rifle, IF you appreciate what it offers. That is, much better wood and a much greater level of fit and finish. They're all on sale at Davidson's, the 28" model with tang sight can be had for $840 locally.
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